Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Vincent46]

Not that CCing is the easiest thing in the world anyway. You have to know when it's the best option.

 

[Tomacawk]

Not that CCing is the easiest thing in the world anyway. You have to know when it's the best option.

CCing is pretty much always the best option. That's why great players CC everything.

 

[JPOBS]

my biggest "beef" is that it's such a low risk, low skill level technique with absolutely huge rewards. Think of L cancelling and wavedashing. The burden of skill is on the person doing it--if they're good and execute consistently, they reap the rewards. CCs put the burden of skill on your opponent.

While I don't agree with your conclusion or your overall opinion,
I have to admit that this a very astute assessment and I'd nver thought of it this way before.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I find CC makes the game less and more gay.

I think without CC the game would basically just devolve into jab -> grab **** combo spam, super ridiculous Sheik tilt action, etc. I don't think Marth Sheik would be realistically winnable for Marth if Marth didn't have the ability to CC Sheik's tilts and jabs. Otherwise he just gets run over by faster moves. I've played this MU when nobody CCed ever and now when everyone does... and it was a lot easier to **** them when jab actually linked to grab at every percent, all the time.

On the other hand, it is gay that it limits approaches and whatever to the degree that it does. Jab not being a move until they're in a position where they probably won't CC or they're airborne is kind of silly. It's spawned some interesting counters for it, namely late aerials --> shine, and all sorts of spacing nonsense. But all in all it's still really homosexual and forces really awkward play.

Oh well.

It's not the worst thing in this game, I think.

That's still reserved for Jigglypuff lololol

 

[iamthemicrowave]

^^^ good post

 

[CloneHat]

So I see SOME top pros using nair-shines to pressure shields. It seems to do a lot of damage to a shield, but usually the opponent will just end up rolling away.

I've found just standing around behind the shield works better, throwing out waveshines and jabs until they do something you can punish.

I'm wondering why there is so much of this auto-shield pressure, when it doesn't actually seem as effective.

 

[voorhese]

or why not just grab them out of their shield?

 

[CloneHat]

or why not just grab them out of their shield?

This is also a good question. If you have the opportunity to nair-shine a shield, could you not just perform a grab out of your shine?

 

[voorhese]

or tomahawk them (empty shff -> grab), and in the position of jabbing the back of thier shield you could just grab

 

[earla]

tips on being a pro doubles fox teaming with sheik?

 

[Evoke]

Why's it called a tomahawk?

 

[omgwtfToph]

idk. mostly cuz east coast sucks

 

[makoforce]

hmm IMO the best way to pressure a shield is to just tap it with a jab once, and run around outside of it. The intensity of that makes you wanna jump outta your seat. Especially when you see it on the videos.

But I think the reason people dont just grab shields (at higher level) is because you can spotdodge grabs and get punished unless you nair>shine>grab cause thats totally legit.

 

[voorhese]

just do the mango shield pressure than, and run around them until they realize ur just ****in with em, then punish

 

[makoforce]

yea thats what i mean minus the jab

Sn: rey is the best Fox (fanboy-ism)

 

[JPOBS]

all this stuff about "just grab them" or "just tomahawk" or "just run aroudn their sheild lol" only works BECAUSE you've conditioned them to expect nair-shine pressure.

The answer isn't as simple as the last few posts make it seem. The truth is that all of those things discussed in the last couple posts are silly gimmicks that leave you almost entirely defenseless if you go for it. Its basically a high risk-high reward to go for a tomahawk or DD outsid etheir sheild because the opponent could flat out just freaking hit you. The ony reason it ever works is because they dont think you're going to do that.

but if you only ever tomahawk, or grab, or dd outside their sheild, they will just hit you for being dumb.

theres a two fold reason (i think) why even at top levels, nair->shines are the option of choice:
1. nair shining is 100 times safer that any of those tricks, in the event your opponent actually tries to do something other than shield (such as attack) because its fast and will beat out a move whereas if you tried to tomahawk at someone and they randomly fmsash you're gonna get hit in the face

2. its not that hard to follow up from nair shine pressure, especially if they roll or jump out, because it commits them to movements you can easily react to, or unfavorable positions, so you might as well just do this.

I dunno, I think "lol just grab them" or "lol dash dance around their shield and make them look scared" are unreliable in the heat of a real game, especialy when used frequently.

 

[voorhese]

very good point

 

[makoforce]

all this stuff about "just grab them" or "just tomahawk" or "just run aroudn their sheild lol" only works BECAUSE you've conditioned them to expect nair-shine pressure.

The answer isn't as simple as the last few posts make it seem. The truth is that all of those things discussed in the last couple posts are silly gimmicks that leave you almost entirely defenseless if you go for it. Its basically a high risk-high reward to go for a tomahawk or DD outsid etheir sheild because the opponent could flat out just freaking hit you. The ony reason it ever works is because they dont think you're going to do that.

but if you only ever tomahawk, or grab, or dd outside their sheild, they will just hit you for being dumb.

theres a two fold reason (i think) why even at top levels, nair->shines are the option of choice:
1. nair shining is 100 times safer that any of those tricks, in the event your opponent actually tries to do something other than shield (such as attack) because its fast and will beat out a move whereas if you tried to tomahawk at someone and they randomly fmsash you're gonna get hit in the face

2. its not that hard to follow up from nair shine pressure, especially if they roll or jump out, because it commits them to movements you can easily react to, or unfavorable positions, so you might as well just do this.

I dunno, I think "lol just grab them" or "lol dash dance around their shield and make them look scared" are unreliable in the heat of a real game, especialy when used frequently.

But most people are already conditioned that way. When you shield vs falco most people already know what coming. Not hitting it at all is like one of the best things since they may roll away leaving you to just walk up and hit them. Then why would you try to nair>shine if they werent shielding? I mean of course Nair>shine is probably the safest but The ones stated up above are very good mix-ups. But if we would cross them up with the nair the only thing they can do is jump or roll.

 

[JPOBS]

But most people are already conditioned that way. When you shield vs falco most people already know what coming. Not hitting it at all is like one of the best things since they may roll away leaving you to just walk up and hit them.

eh..I don't really like doing trick Y because its a habit X of "most people". Because then you run into people who have unique playstyle, don't use habit X, or are simply good, and will beat you badly for trying to play on common tricks.

and then, if you're always doing trick Y because most people have habit X, then trick Y actually becomes habit Y for you, and then opponents will just start to take advantage of you.

What you should instead is just have an entire bad of tricks that you can pull out on a whim, and use them based on what your current opponent is doing. Instea dof going into a match thinking "ok im going to tomahawk grab this guy cuz everyone likes to sheild vs falco", you should go in as a blank slate, and then see how he responds to what you're doing, then punish THAT.

Then why would you try to nair>shine if they werent shielding? I mean of course Nair>shine is probably the safest but The ones stated up above are very good mix-ups. But if we would cross them up with the nair the only thing they can do is jump or roll.

well, very simply, you would try to nair->shine if they werent shielding, because nair->shine often leads to big combos. Thats the beauty of nair shine, it works whether they are shielding or not. Tomahawk grab literally only works if they are shielding, and i don't know why you would habitually use a inferior tactic over one that works in more cases.

thats why high level play uses nair>shine more than those tricks. nair->shine covers a variety of possible options the opponent can take, whereas any given trick likely only covers 1 thing and if you guess wrong, gg.

im not advocating to not use those mixups at all mind you, im simply answering why the high level play isnt just "lol tomahawk grab" and "dd around their shield its so good" all the time.

 

[Lovage]

this game would be way more boring without cc

 

[makoforce]

sheik would be gay tier w/o it lol

 

[unknown522]

I think people over-rate falco's lasers. If you're both fighting for stage control/positioning, they serve little more purpose than to distract you and interrupt your movements. If you can play a tightly controlled *post-getting-hit-by-a-laser* fox, you can punish him well. The reason falco does so well against fox is because of his dair's priority. Seriously. That's really all he has that you cannot contest head on (sometimes you can trade hits with a usmash, but I find it hard to do this).

He can also combo moves off his lasers when he decides to get close to you, or you decide to get close to him. What have you. He can also just pelt you with lasers while you are committed to moves, and certain movements. They not only serve to disrupt you, but to poke you, put pressure, bait you, and even start combos. They are not limited to just a camping tool. Not only that, but falco doesn't have to shoot a laser every single time at you, he can stop and wait to see if you do something and make judgement calls from there while still remaining outside your space. He can always have the control because your lasers don't stun and you both have comparable range on every other move. But he can bother you, rack damage and/or force you to approach him since his lasers go full screen and stun. Falco doesn't (and probably won't) always be right in your face when he shoots a laser waiting for his opponent to try and bait him and it's impossible to never shield vs falco. He's eventually going to intercept a move either before it comes out or just plow through it once you are inside his space. He can also catch you trying to run away, or can just move back himself then shoot you up some more.

So think about the matchup from his perspective. He's going to laser you until you flub up or until he finds out you can't control your character after taking laser hits. When he finds what he thinks is an opening, he's going to bulldoze through you with a dair. He WANTS you to put up your shield. You must minimize your shield usage as much as you can.

shielding is not always a bad idea, and is also sometimes the only thing you can do. He can beat your CC for free with his d-air and beat your moves sometimes too, unless you specifically time + space them to beat his. Not only that, but when you retaliate with moves, a lot of times he can just CC them, or space around the moves that beat his CC, since those are all so short-ranged. You can sometimes stop approaches with shines OoS and also hit him with other moves OoS if he tries to space around your shield, since fox does have some fast aerials and a fast u-smash. Since stun on the shield is not the same as a regular hit, you can retaliate out of your shield when you are trying to find that opening. Shielding is important too in this matchup, but of course don't just stand there in your shield all day, you have to be fast.

For fox, this means your primary concern is getting around his dair and taking that first hit. Most falco players look confused and scared after getting hit (even by a soft bair), just as many fox players do after taking a laser (I'm very guilty of this, myself). Get your openings by abusing his laser game. Study his movements. Understand that his lasers are trying to disrupt your movement so he can swoop in and be gay.

they can CC your *** easily for hitting weak moves. Good falcos won't be scared when they get hit and will be ready to retaliate if they get hit by the wrong moves.

With that being said, get good at dashing away after tanking a laser. This will lead to a lot of dd grabs on his whiffed approaches. Get good at powershielding. Get good at jumping and wavelanding on platforms to dodge lasers/after tanking a laser. If he's approaching you with shl to shffl dair in close quarters, you can often times take the laser and usmash asap and hit him before his dair comes out.
If you space really well, your bair/utilt can beat his dair really often. Just don't try to hit him THROUGH the dair. Hit him around it.
This matchup is played better from behind (as in literally put your *** in his face and poop on him)

PSing is good up close. Trying to approach falco can be bad a lot of times. His u-tilt beats everything. Trying to get behind him can even be a pain in the *** alone. His auto-cancel b-airs can be really good a lot of the time as well, since your u-smash won't reach when he does it.




sorry it took a while. Computer johns.

 

[CloneHat]

I still wonder why a nair doesn't lead into a shine grab on shield. More nairs is just hitting the shield repeatedly, which isn't nearly as good as a combo starter/kill move.

 

[omgwtfToph]

i dunno, i like nairshining at the ledge cuz if you shield poke with either move you get them either off the stage or on the ledge >_>

 

[Tomacawk]

A lot of the stuff you mention I assumed was implied or didn't touch on for the sake of brevity, but I agree for the most part.
For instance, I was implying that your soft hits don't land with bad spacing and you are out of cc range.
Either way, good post. At the very least I got you to tell us stuff

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

can i get some advice on fox vs. falcon and fox vs marth? i feel i get grabbed/baited alot easier when i go in for approaches on these characters. it doesn't have to be any new info if you have posted lengthy stuff before on falcon or marth. maybe i just need some general advice on baiting my approaches.

 

[Brookman]

Don't put yourself in a bad position by committing to approaches like aerials/grabs. your best openings are dash attack and his full jump. If the player(s) are good at CC then drill shine/grab/^tilt will be your best bets.

Even if you feel confident about your DD reading its generally bad practice to try and attack the marth in their DD. Lasers are your friend, use them to your advantage and try to get into your opponents head.


Keep in mind, if your opponent is good at the game they will be watching you and although you may not realize it, you can easily be telegraphing your intents. I think I could help you more if you had some videos.


platforms are great, most importantly to remove grabs as a threat and to also force your opponent to become air born. The speed at which you move and think is important. Basically, once your opponent takes a platform/jumps You should immediately fast fall to the ground and pin them to the edge/platform with back air. Recognize their options for getting through you/above you/ hitting you and out play them in this position.

take a stock lead then continue to build percent in hit and run style using platforms and your speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YapL-w92LwI this is a fine example of fox v. falcon



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyLFEiW6gMA&NR=1 in this match, after zoso takes a stock lead he begins playing more aggressively, in an attempt to maintain control (perhaps).

Basically, once you have a winning position your goal is no longer to create a winning position but simply to maintain a winning position (through the course of the match this will naturally lead to a game win.)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA1XplvQ3P4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvMeTbh52Eg&feature=related


this is pretty much my anti-falcon bible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynjeIlBAIGM

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

mm not approaching a dash dance in general is a simple yet smart thing i never really thought about doing for some reason. you're first sentence is a little weird for me to take in though, why are full hop approaches better than SH aerial/grab approaches? obviously if they're expecting one more often that's different, but i meant generally.

how does me going on the platform make my opponent go airborne? it doesn't force them to go up or anything, they could just wait on the ground, right?

also, is coming in on an opponent thats far with a dair a bad idea? i've noticed my dairs usually don't connect well unless i'm already really close to the opponent.

keep thinking of more things that are problematic for me. this one is coming back on stage from the ledge, i feel generally wavelanding onto the stage to shield or getting away after that is the best option but i still feel like the opponent can stuff me in that corner pretty easily even doing that. what are some really good/reliable options for coming back on stage from the ledge? is it very character dependent?

 

[Brookman]

I should clarify, I mean Marth's dash attack and full jump.

how does me going on the platform make my opponent go airborne? it doesn't force them to go up or anything, they could just wait on the ground, right?

also, is coming in on an opponent thats far with a dair a bad idea? i've noticed my dairs usually don't connect well unless i'm already really close to the opponent.

keep thinking of more things that are problematic for me. this one is coming back on stage from the ledge, i feel generally wavelanding onto the stage to shield or getting away after that is the best option but i still feel like the opponent can stuff me in that corner pretty easily even doing that. what are some really good/reliable options for coming back on stage from the ledge? is it very character dependent?

nothing and everything are all good and bad ideas, simultaneously. It comes down to playing in the moment constantly while recognizing patterns and processing information subconciously as fast as (subconciously) possible.

As for coming back onto the stage you just have to know your options. There are the obvious standards like stand up from the edge (staple and under rated, in my opinion) get up attack, roll and jump. Additional options stem from letting go of the edge by pressing down and back (I'm sure you understand this, but do humour the information) letting go of the edge allows you to do a few extra things > air dodge, double jump, >b and ^b regrabs.

through the double jump you can wave land, aerial, forward b. OR regrab the edge (invincibility frames!!!) using your


waveland on stage > roll is a nice trick that gets you almost as much distance into the stage as the forward b. Keep in mind that you don't have to waveland forward, you can simply waveland on the edge as if you'd done the stand up.

If you're not invincible in the waveland then you're doing it wrong.

On platform stages edge hop > forward b > edge cancel is definitely one of the safest (tho eventually more predictable) ways to return to the stage.


edge hops are generally more reckless/more commonly expected/easily punished.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

wait, sorry i'm a little confused, you're saying my best chances for openings are when Marth does dash attack or full jump?

 

[Brookman]

pretty much. That and his nair and sh fair (as in, sh fair with no landing).


Definitely not the only way to hit them, but they are IMO his most vulnerable moves/positions.

You can also

 

[Palpi]

I think Marth's nair leaves him very vulnerable. I am scared to use it sometimes.

 

[Brookman]

As you should be.

 

[JPOBS]

^if they auto cancel it they can move immediately which can be annoying

another thing brookman forgot to mention is on yoshis and BF you can waveland to the platform.

 

[Brookman]

^if they auto cancel it they can move immediately which can be annoying

another thing brookman forgot to mention is on yoshis and BF you can waveland to the platform.

L cancel is still technically faster than the auto-cancel, you're just trading airborn frames for landing frames. As for the stage specific things, I didn't really feel like getting into it cause there's a lot more involved with the different shape stages/edge/platforms.

Besides, you don't HAVE to waveland the platform, you can simply jump onto it, fall through and fast fall an aerial, land on it jump to the top .. .


up b is extremely good vs. marth >_>

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ummmmm marth's nair autocancels in a perfect SHFFL

 

[Brookman]

MMMM no ^_^


but really, define perfect.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

perfect as in you short hop, press A, fast fall on the first possible frame. marth's nair autocancels.

 

[ZoSo]

That's true, but normal SHFFL nair is still safer on shields. SHFFAC (an acronym that I just came up with) nair is better for calling approaches and stuff.

 

[unknown522]

A lot of the stuff you mention I assumed was implied or didn't touch on for the sake of brevity, but I agree for the most part.
For instance, I was implying that your soft hits don't land with bad spacing and you are out of cc range.
Either way, good post. At the very least I got you to tell us stuff

np. any time.