Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[DanteFox]

Yo I was wondering how is this possible?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FbZEIjUmbk#t=2m27s

How does one tech marth's counter?

 

[Mastermooseman]

Fox friendlies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=glYLPcF9ji4#t=399s

So much cool Shield dropping. Do you sometimes switch to an Isai drop (walk animation->drop) or do you always use shield drop for anything involving dropping through a platform? How do you master it so well?

What location do you have to be to ledge cancel side-b on PS platforms, Falco you just run off one of them and side-b, but for Fox I can't find the points for any.
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Why is Air dodging (somewhere above a ledge) and then falling past the ledge to grab it almost never work? do you have to grab it within the next 1/2 second of special fall or something?

Yo I was wondering how is this possible?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FbZEIjUmbk#t=2m27s

How does one tech marth's counter?

quick wall-tech, possibly some SDI inward?

 

[Tee ay eye]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=glYLPcF9ji4#t=399s

So much cool Shield dropping. Do you sometimes switch to an Isai drop (walk animation->drop) or do you always use shield drop for anything involving dropping through a platform? How do you master it so well?

I don't always shield-drop. I just do it when I want to dash into a shield drop or when I want to be cool. Otherwise, I'll do a regular shield drop or an Isai drop if I'm landing a laser.

I play around with shield dropping a lot when I play against CPUs just cuz the movements and what you can do with it are fun, and I do it oftentimes to show off in-between stocks. Something I do a lot is to just try to go on streams of tech-skill against computers and in-between stocks. For example, I'll just do a running shield drop -> shine -> turnaround -> waveland -> running shield drop -> second jump -> u-air -> ledgecancel off the platform -> u-air -> ledgecancel off the stage -> shine -> up-B. I think practicing things like this helps because it forces you/allows you to practice it fluidly as part of a more natural sequence of moves rather than practicing it in an isolated vacuum.

What location do you have to be to ledge cancel side-b on PS platforms, Falco you just run off one of them and side-b, but for Fox I can't find the points for any.
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One thing you can do on PS/BF to edge-cancel with Fox is to walk all the way to the end of the platform, drop through, and then immediately forward B.

Alternately, what also works is walking up to the far yellow triangles (the isolated ones that are not part of a pair) on the ground so that Fox's tippy toes are touching the tips of the triangles, and then just jumping and doing a forward B.

Why is Air dodging (somewhere above a ledge) and then falling past the ledge to grab it almost never work? do you have to grab it within the next 1/2 second of special fall or something?

I think the time after an air-dodge varies depending on character, but another factor that makes it so hard to do with Fox is because he falls really quickly, reducing the amount of time he's actually given to refresh his ledge grab ability.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Yo I was wondering how is this possible?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FbZEIjUmbk#t=2m27s

How does one tech marth's counter?

To tech Marth's counter, you pretty much just have to delay the tech and the smash DI input, which is why the timing is so tricky.

The thing to remember about Marth's counter is that during the part where he's blocking your attack, he's not actually hitting you with anything. You have to wait until that is over, and then smash DI the part where he actually swings his sword to counterattack you.

Oh, you also have to delay your tech input accordingly so that it takes place within 20 frames before you collide with the wall.... and to not delay it so much that you hit L/R when you're in hitlag from his counterattack.

 

[EWC]

Teching marth's counter is tricky because he hits you really late. If you're used to teching most moves, you'll press L a little bit before you reach the ledge, since that's when you'd normally get hit. To tech marth's counter you just have to delay the input by ~1/4 of a second. Sometimes you have to SDI as well but a lot of the time you can get away without it. The timing is feels really non-intuitive though if you're already used to doing edgetechs.

 

[DanteFox]

To tech Marth's counter, you pretty much just have to delay the tech and the smash DI input, which is why the timing is so tricky.

The thing to remember about Marth's counter is that during the part where he's blocking your attack, he's not actually hitting you with anything. You have to wait until that is over, and then smash DI the part where he actually swings his sword to counterattack you.

Oh, you also have to delay your tech input accordingly so that it takes place within 20 frames before you collide with the wall.... and to not delay it so much that you hit L/R when you're in hitlag from his counterattack.

don't you mean time it within 20 frames before I collide with his sword?

 

[omgwtfToph]

Tai, I like your fox :3

 

[Tee ay eye]

don't you mean time it within 20 frames before I collide with his sword?

no, i mean 20 frames before you collide with the wall

when you hit L or R, you will tech if you get knocked (as in knockdown, where you will see a green splash on collision) onto a surface (ground, wall, ceiling) within the 20 frames following the L/R input. the next 40 frames after that, you are unable to tech.

also, when you hit L/R during hitlag (the frames where his sword is actually colliding with your body), then your tech will not work (not 100% sure on this, but i'm pretty sure it's true), but the 40 frame cooldown will still be imposed.

 

[omgwtfToph]

tai doesn't care about what i think about his fox

 

[Bones0]

I believe the rule is you can't tech during hitlag, which is why you almost always have to input the tech before you get hit. If you want to do it after you get hit I think you have to hit it exactly on the frame before you hit the wall (because as soon as hitlag ends you're flying away from the wall). I remember reading about it in Strongbad's Frame Questions thread.

Easiest ways I've found to ledge cancel Illusion on PS is to ledge cancel an attack and side-B immediately, or WD/WL on the plat so that you barely slide off so you can side-B immediately. It's really just about side-Bing asap because any extra distance will make you overshoot the other platform. I think you can just run off and still ledge cancel it, but you have to do something like wait until you fall a little and then Fox actually lands on the second platform slowing him down so he can get the ledge cancel (this is pretty easy to do by accident with Falco when he DJs back from the ledge on BF and tries to ledge cancel the side plats).

 

[Tee ay eye]

tai doesn't care about what i think about his fox

i do, i just didn't want to double post.

i hate the "last edited" mark that goes on the bottom of your post when you edit.

 

[unknown522]

I don't think I can help tai's fox. It's just so bad......

Jk. When I'm on a comp I'll write up setting

Also congrats on your achievements leffen. Next step is to take him down

 

[Bones0]

Fox isn't allowed to win nationals... What game have you been playing?

 

[Tee ay eye]

So I came to a small little epiphany today.

I really like talking about Smash, and I feel like I gain a lot from it, but I'm not a giant fan of the open forum setting for a few reasons. It takes a long time to get your responses (not a giant problem, but still slightly off-putting), but moreover, since it's a free-for all discussion, there's a bit too much entropy in discussion for my liking (things can deviate too far from what we're talking about) and since people aren't speaking directly to me, I don't feel particularly inclined to respond.

I've generally liked my experiences talking about Smash through Facebook messages or through AIM because both people get constant feedback on everything they say as opposed to writing up some broad general statement that is open and addressed to everyone. I feel like direct conversations about the game are just much more productive, meaningful, and interactive, which makes it a better medium for learning.

Feel free to even send me a link to a match for me to watch and talk about, but I'll warn you that I'll be less likely to do that because it requires me to dedicate a few minutes of concentration to just that, and I don't exactly have a specific thing to look for, and because it's just me talking about a match rather than having an interactive discussion on-the-fly... although that can lead to a nice discussion. As I said, feel free to send matches my way, but don't take it personally if I don't watch them

tl;dr: Feel free to hit me up on AIM (xroflmaowtfx) or messaging me directly on Facebook with questions or topics of discussion of pretty much anything pertaining to the game (does not necessarily have to be directly Marth related).

asdasdasdasdasdasdasd

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

just saw uk's post was confused, read back, good **** leffen holy crap.

bouta watch leffen vs armada WF now, i assume others want:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2_8afY7q7A


also doubles GF;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjSpr8UM_iE

 

[Bones0]

I was GOING to go to sleep. Thanks a lot, bro. :|

 

[Sinji]

I think Bones0's house avatar changed his whole persona. lol

 

[Omni]

Getting back into Melee after 3 dark years in the netherworld known as Brawl. Need some quick questions and advice, mainly tech shiz so I can get my tech back:

1.) What methods do you guys use to waveland onto the stage from the ledge? Yoshi's slant gives you breathing room to get a nice glide going which is simple, but my waveland on stages like FD, BF, and PS are a bit choppy.

2.) What method do you guys use to grab the ledge the fastest for an edgeguard? Say you b-air an opponent and you're rushing to the ledge face first. No time for the PC Chris slip. I use to run off shine turn-around jump into immediate up+b ledge grab, but that's not exactly the fastest nor safest option if your trying to grab the ledge the fastest. I've seen a few vids where Fox will run in and do a turn-around shine and almost grab the ledge instantly?

3.) I've been gone for 2+ years from the Melee scene. What new things do I need to learn with Fox? From what I've seen so far it looks like edgecancelling and wavelanding pretty much everything is the new metagame. Anything new or unobvious other than stuff like shinegrab, thunders, etc.?

4.) How do you moonwalk with Fox? Please teach me how to Dougie.

 

[Cactuar]

@Omni: The only thing you need to do is come up and play me.

 

[Omni]

I sincerely wish I could, sweetheart.

Alas, no vehicular unit at the moment.

 

[Bones0]

Getting back into Melee after 3 dark years in the netherworld known as Brawl. Need some quick questions and advice, mainly tech shiz so I can get my tech back:

1.) What methods do you guys use to waveland onto the stage from the ledge? Yoshi's slant gives you breathing room to get a nice glide going which is simple, but my waveland on stages like FD, BF, and PS are a bit choppy.

2.) What method do you guys use to grab the ledge the fastest for an edgeguard? Say you b-air an opponent and you're rushing to the ledge face first. No time for the PC Chris slip. I use to run off shine turn-around jump into immediate up+b ledge grab, but that's not exactly the fastest nor safest option if your trying to grab the ledge the fastest. I've seen a few vids where Fox will run in and do a turn-around shine and almost grab the ledge instantly?

3.) I've been gone for 2+ years from the Melee scene. What new things do I need to learn with Fox? From what I've seen so far it looks like edgecancelling and wavelanding pretty much everything is the new metagame. Anything new or unobvious other than stuff like shinegrab, thunders, etc.?

4.) How do you moonwalk with Fox? Please teach me how to Dougie.

1. Commonly referred to as ledge dash these days. I don't actually think the slant on Yoshi's helps at all. I just hit back to drop from the ledge, then jump and airdodge with almost the same timing as a wavedash. If you just practice it like crazy it should fall into place naturally.

2. The method I use to grab the ledge is ledge shine/shine hog, which is what you are talking about where you shine turn around and then slide off during the frames you are in the jump crouch animation. The trick is simply making sure you time/space the shine right so when you jump you are close enough to slide off. Fox's is actually pretty easy compared to Falco's because his run is so much faster, and you can even do it out of a walk if you get it right (like a PC drop, basically). Be careful about sliding off. If you fail to turn around in shine, you will end up sliding off facing forward, and if you slide off properly but attack before you grab the ledge, obviously you won't grab it (though it's awesome for edge guarding if you can hit them lol). If you're too close to dash cancel the shine, then you can just (shine) turn around and WD on.

3. Multishining (sends opponents further off stage for gimps), and shield dropping (both out of dashes and standing still).

4. Same as a regular moonwalk, but you have to be walking instead of dashing/dash dancing.

 

[Omni]

wtf is shield dropping? just... releasing your shield? or is this like dropping through platforms while shielding

 

[clowsui]

dropping thru plat while shielding

 

[Omni]

ah yea, that shiz is ezpz. aight so...

1.) ok imma practice the ledge dash. its easy when i use sheik. harder with fox.
2.) so.. turn around shine makes it so u dont go flying off the ledge while you're still in shine animation? got it.
3.) multishining? dat javi. ok. shield dropping. i was there for that tech; not that important imo.
4.) so what would be the inputs to do a max fox moonwalk

 

[Tee ay eye]

something that's gotten more popular today is running shield drops, rather than just shield dropping

what you do is dash -> tap down (mid-dash to buffer the shield drop) -> shield, and it'll make you drop through the platform. this allows you to drop through a platform in the middle of a dash

i do it a few times here:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T1ijVMrLKQ#t=4m22s

if you watch one of lovage's tech skill videos, you'll see him do it a lot there, also.

 

[Omni]

thats pretty sick. has good application for baiting shield grabs . where are lovage's tech skill videos

 

[Tee ay eye]

Berserker: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=238BPPK4xd0
Hugs vs Lovage (Abridged): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyctXaK-cK4
Revolution (Silent Wolf and Lovage): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17J6BbaTR18

 

[Bones0]

ah yea, that shiz is ezpz. aight so...

1.) ok imma practice the ledge dash. its easy when i use sheik. harder with fox.
2.) so.. turn around shine makes it so u dont go flying off the ledge while you're still in shine animation? got it.
3.) multishining? dat javi. ok. shield dropping. i was there for that tech; not that important imo.
4.) so what would be the inputs to do a max fox moonwalk

2. No, you will Chillin dash if you just hold shine. You have to JC the shine so that you are in jump squat as you slide off (Fox is in jump squat for 3 frames).
3. Lol? Shield dropping is incredible. You're gimping yourself by choosing not to learn it, but I mean w/e. Most other people don't anyway.
4. Just walk as fast as possible before the moonwalk.

 

[rokimomi]

Run to ledge, shine -> turnaround -> reverse wavedash out of the shine -> grab ledge
Easier (for a reason I don't know) with falco so practice with him

Or the lazy man version that's for when you have some time to burn:
Run to ledge, shine -> turnaround -> reverse fulljump/shorthop -> grab ledge

 

[Bones0]

It's probably easier for you with Falco because he runs so much more slowly.

 

[Omni]

idk why but i cannot consistently reverse waveshine and vice versa for the life of me.

that is i can waveshine backwards and forwards fine, but i have a hard time wavedashing after changing my shine position.

 

[Bones0]

You just have to wait longer. Not sure on the exact number of additional frames though.

 

[PGH Carroll]

i forget who told me this about waveshine backwards but i think he said think about doing it in place almost and then going backward. if that makes sense. not sure how to word it since im stupid. but it helps

 

[omgwtfToph]

holy **** cactuar and bones0

DOUBLE HUGH LAURIE EXTRAVAGANZA

 

[Lovage]

ah yea, that shiz is ezpz. aight so...

1.) ok imma practice the ledge dash. its easy when i use sheik. harder with fox.
2.) so.. turn around shine makes it so u dont go flying off the ledge while you're still in shine animation? got it.
3.) multishining? dat javi. ok. shield dropping. i was there for that tech; not that important imo.
4.) so what would be the inputs to do a max fox moonwalk

3. multishinings not that important, being able to doubleshine in shield pressure is really good. or be able to do 3-4 multishines when they're right on the ledge can be good too.

4. first learn how to moonwalk with falcon, then do it with fox except be walking the opposite direction of the moonwalk before you do it.

Getting back into Melee after 3 dark years in the netherworld known as Brawl. Need some quick questions and advice, mainly tech shiz so I can get my tech back:

1.) What methods do you guys use to waveland onto the stage from the ledge? Yoshi's slant gives you breathing room to get a nice glide going which is simple, but my waveland on stages like FD, BF, and PS are a bit choppy.

reliable, easy - run at ledge, turnaround waveshine to grab edge

reliable, easy, for close range - dash away from ledge, wavedash back onto edge

reliable, moderate hardness, insanely fast - walkoff edgehog (fastfall it too, very important for edgehogging gimmicks)

hard, specific, insanely fast - shinehog (shine turnaround on the ledge, and interrupter a jump on the ledge to grab da edge)

hard, only good for certain recoveries (that dont hit high) - ledge-canceled turnaround laser

2.) What method do you guys use to grab the ledge the fastest for an edgeguard? Say you b-air an opponent and you're rushing to the ledge face first. No time for the PC Chris slip. I use to run off shine turn-around jump into immediate up+b ledge grab, but that's not exactly the fastest nor safest option if your trying to grab the ledge the fastest. I've seen a few vids where Fox will run in and do a turn-around shine and almost grab the ledge instantly?

short hop fast fall onto edge is very easy and fast, WD back is faster, walkoff edgehog even faster in some situations. shinehog fastest but by far the hardest.

3.) I've been gone for 2+ years from the Melee scene. What new things do I need to learn with Fox? From what I've seen so far it looks like edgecancelling and wavelanding pretty much everything is the new metagame. Anything new or unobvious other than stuff like shinegrab, thunders, etc.?

consistent throw combos vs. all top tiers, good movement (master of wavelanding to use platforms to your advantage,) strong edgeguarding, knowledge of edge cancel combos, risky vs. safe edgeguarding and recovering, shield drops.

 

[Omni]

Sweet. Thanks broskis.

Gonna' do a crapload of MM's this weekend in the MD/VA area. Should come back with many videos for you guys to critique. Restoring my long lost Melee powers is harder than I thought.

 

[Sinji]

Apart from Nair a clever way to stop Peaches aerials is shine.
Just found this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU9flpuZyV0

 

[leffen]

The vids are up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2_8afY7q7A Me vs Armada WF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7EB0GA3zII&feature=channel GF

For those who are frisky and wanna try some teams (first time me and fuzzyness teams)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1BVSp7WdDU&feature=channel (second set GF, theres more)

Thanks

 

[omgwtfToph]

leffen your fox is really cool/good lol

 

[leffen]

Thanks man, I just wish I was more consistent /punished a single ****ing dsmash oos LOL

I'm gonna practice ****loads for Smashers reunion (PP is more or less confirmed I think) and we have tons of tournaments before that too, hopefully I'll get that #1 in europe title soon ;D