Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[PK Webb]

im not johning at all i still main him and i can be very technical myself its just he is a hard character to use sumtimes...there was a pint when i sad i should go falco but i never did

 

[Zero_Gamer]

Does anyone else feel extra technical after exercising?

 

[Tomacawk]

Does anyone else feel extra technical after exercising?

no after I lift I'm exhausted =X

 

[derfleurer]

Does anyone else feel extra technical after exercising?

Only in the sense that i'm relaxed vs getting nervous and full hopping/not even hitting the y button. =p

 

[LumpyCPU...]

I Know It's Long, But A Lot Of People Need This.

In other words, I like to do a lot. If you ever hear me play, you seriously HEAR me

i can vouch for this. haha
when he it's R it sounds like he used a baseball bat to do it.

im not johning at all i still main him and i can be very technical myself its just he is a hard character to use sumtimes...there was a pint when i sad i should go falco but i never did

i've been here. i think falco wouldn't be a step in the right direction. falco is just as technically demanding, imo. only falco's tech skill is all awkward and stiff to me. he's too robotic for me to have any flow with. i mained peach forever until recently. my peach was a little technical for a peach but that ain't fox. my peach was WAY more consistent because in my eyes, fox required technical perfection and despite how much i tried, i just couldn't grasp that being possible for me.

now i'm over that, and my fox is the best it's ever been because i've simplified my goal with fox and i don't try things in matches that i don't have sheer and utter confidence in. my whole playstyle revolves around holding two priorities.
the first being to play as safe as possible. this should be as simple as it sounds and i'm not sure why this isn't the most commonly shared aspect of melee. it consists of not sitting still, not committing to any approaches, and not being baited into what looks like a safe approach only to get grabbed.

the second priority is to keep up the pressure. this is where it gets a little more complex but still very attainable. without this step you will develop what i call "sheik syndrome". it's where you're playing a strategically safe, campy, and reactive play style while falling into a repetitive and predictable rhythm. you need to dash dance to try and bait for grabs. you need to avoid shielding as much as you can (i know against falco it's hard). try to avoid doing anything "random" or "because you felt like it" while holding true to a seemingly non repetitive course of actions. all of this in efforts to stay threatening with out any obvious weaknesses, patterns, or flaws that can be read or punished.

i believe fox is the best character for all this simply because he is fast, versatile, mobile, and has a solid move set with enough options to develop a near flawless meta game.


p.s. i wrote this entire thing on a whim. with that said i honestly believe it to be the most efficient way to play fox in a nutshell. (why would you play fox inside of a nutshell?)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

 

[Tomacawk]

Mind=blown

 

[TheManaLord]

The traditional opinion that Fox is the best and always will be should finally get put to sleep.

Fox is probably 2nd or 3rd best. Behind jiggs or jiggs/falco.

Jiggs and falco have such more of a solid game. Fox is all over the place and he gets tossed all the time.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

being "all over the place" and getting "tossed all the time" both sound like options the fox doesn't have to take. i'm not saying fox always will be the best.

for the record, i'm a firm believer in puff being top tier, but not higher than fox.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Dude you haven't seen what fox is really capable if you think fox is below falco.

And you need to get back to reality if you think puff is the best.

Your logic: If puff is the best (P), she would win many tournaments (W). She is winning many tournaments (W). Therefore she is the best (P).

P->W, W; P

When W is true, P can be either true or false so you can't say P is true from W being true. Invalid Logic.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Question: When are SHDLs better than SHLs? While I like SHLs more and use them the majority of the time, I don't find SHDLing technically difficult at all and would like to know when it's better than just fast-falling a SHL.

 

[EC_Joey]

Hey Raynex if you're still alive, what's your record against Vwins?

 

[Silent Wolf]

Question: When are SHDLs better than SHLs? While I like SHLs more and use them the majority of the time, I don't find SHDLing technically difficult at all and would like to know when it's better than just fast-falling a SHL.

whenever you can get away with it, which is usually whenever you can get away with a regular shl. 2 lasers are better than one.

 

[Tomacawk]

hey raynex, or silent wolf, or any other good player (lovage? lol. you're active lately)
Think you can critique my sets vs goose in grand finals?
most of them are fox dittos but I go falcon and falco at the end
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X1eofLq1_w 1:FoD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFX4nOWrPWU 2S
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsiJRT3u5aA 3:Gaystar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ5_79xMR10 4:Yoshi's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLv3xs7ULck 2-1:DL64
The last 2 games I do not play fox.
Thanks in advance to whomever

 

[LumpyCPU...]

Question: When are SHDLs better than SHLs? While I like SHLs more and use them the majority of the time, I don't find SHDLing technically difficult at all and would like to know when it's better than just fast-falling a SHL.

whenever you can get away with it, which is usually whenever you can get away with a regular shl. 2 lasers are better than one.

i feel like being able to fast falling one laser gives me more control.

 

[TheManaLord]

Dude you haven't seen what fox is really capable if you think fox is below falco.

And you need to get back to reality if you think puff is the best.

Your logic: If puff is the best (P), she would win many tournaments (W). She is winning many tournaments (W). Therefore she is the best (P).

P->W, W; P

When W is true, P can be either true or false so you can't say P is true from W being true. Invalid Logic.

I don't know dude. Jiggs is too good right now.

idk here's how i'm thinking and coming to these thoughts...

way back people had bad to no di. combos were weak. lots of single hits n ****.

then chars like sheik and fox with easy autocombos on bad di (dash attacks and ****, uthrow uair, sheik ftilt and dthrow) they were awesome

ken dominates with marth for a while and people are getting pretty good at combos and stuff but are still pretty bad at di

falco comes out with bombsoldier and pc chris and the bad DI gets destroooooyed falco ***** bombsoldier a little dumb kid can almost beat the world champ with falco? this is the omen where falco is 2nd best character.

people are getting better at di now

m2k is ****** with marth now because his combo ability is reeeeeally good

then mango wins pound 3 LOL with little tremors and upsets before then like evo world with PUFF this puff out of nowhere

then brawl comes out and ****s one verything

m2k starts to suck *** the whole community really really sucks ***

then yada yada 2008 random as hell lots of falcos comin up because even with peoples better DI they can still autocombo and **** with no mindgames (little kids like bomsoldier winning lol a char with no mind games can still win) falco is gettingmad rep mango coming with falco a lot his new main basically


peoples di is def a lot better and people are more conscious of di at all levels because there arent really scrubs anymore the community lifeline is sort of cut off

now hbox is becoming ridiculous and dr pp



and now that everyone is good at di. a character that cant get combo'd edgeguarded has a OHKO move that comes out instantly can be combo'd into in tons of ways, combos from grabs, punishes missed techs, bad rolls, jab resets can be done oos to **** its just so good.


idk yeah my thought process implies something else happening that changes **** around but i dont see it. everyone can di now

 

[Tomacawk]

wow
awesome post.
I love hearing old school perspective on a game that I'm such a newby at
edit-legit combo vs luigi that i've never seen-waveshine->dash attack
seriously it combos
thoughts?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Mana the only thing i read in there is when characters are popular......


edit- not to mention ken and azen had better DI in '05 than most people have to this day.

 

[RaynEX]

Hey Raynex if you're still alive, what's your record against Vwins?

I still lurk.

Too busy to post these past 2 months.

He definitely has more games on me at local tournaments. We don't meet too frequently, but out of the times we have in the past 2 years he has the better record. At the last two recent ones I beat him. It should be something like 4-2 now. Its hard to face good, lagless/on-point FCing Peaches when you aren't very good. (aka about a year ago when he was stomping me down at every tournament)

If we faced now I honestly couldn't tell you what would happen. I haven't played him in forever.

Also, I'm in Aniolas' pool for Pound 4. Lol Armada's brother. Unknown522 is with Renth, KirbyKaze is with Wife/Hazzard

crazzy

 

[ChivalRuse]

I fail to see the connection between Aniolas, Renth and Wife/Hazzard. I must be stupid.

 

[EC_Joey]

I still lurk.

Too busy to post these past 2 months.

He definitely has more games on me at local tournaments. We don't meet too frequently, but out of the times we have in the past 2 years he has the better record. At the last two recent ones I beat him. It should be something like 4-2 now. Its hard to face good, lagless/on-point FCing Peaches when you aren't very good. (aka about a year ago when he was stomping me down at every tournament)

If we faced now I honestly couldn't tell you what would happen. I haven't played him in forever.

Also, I'm in Aniolas' pool for Pound 4. Lol Armada's brother. Unknown522 is with Renth, KirbyKaze is with Wife/Hazzard

crazzy

Hahaha Vwins is in my pool for Pound 4. Peach is probably my worst matchup.

 

[Renth]

I fail to see the connection between Aniolas, Renth and Wife/Hazzard. I must be stupid.

That's because there isn't one

 

[TheManaLord]

yeah lol he was just listing ppl of his region and who's in their pool haha

 

[LumpyCPU...]

I don't know dude. Jiggs is too good right now.

idk here's how i'm thinking and coming to these thoughts...

way back people had bad to no di. combos were weak. lots of single hits n ****.

then chars like sheik and fox with easy autocombos on bad di (dash attacks and ****, uthrow uair, sheik ftilt and dthrow) they were awesome

ken dominates with marth for a while and people are getting pretty good at combos and stuff but are still pretty bad at di

falco comes out with bombsoldier and pc chris and the bad DI gets destroooooyed falco ***** bombsoldier a little dumb kid can almost beat the world champ with falco? this is the omen where falco is 2nd best character.

people are getting better at di now

m2k is ****** with marth now because his combo ability is reeeeeally good

then mango wins pound 3 LOL with little tremors and upsets before then like evo world with PUFF this puff out of nowhere

then brawl comes out and ****s one verything

m2k starts to suck *** the whole community really really sucks ***

then yada yada 2008 random as hell lots of falcos comin up because even with peoples better DI they can still autocombo and **** with no mindgames (little kids like bomsoldier winning lol a char with no mind games can still win) falco is gettingmad rep mango coming with falco a lot his new main basically


peoples di is def a lot better and people are more conscious of di at all levels because there arent really scrubs anymore the community lifeline is sort of cut off

now hbox is becoming ridiculous and dr pp



and now that everyone is good at di. a character that cant get combo'd edgeguarded has a OHKO move that comes out instantly can be combo'd into in tons of ways, combos from grabs, punishes missed techs, bad rolls, jab resets can be done oos to **** its just so good.


idk yeah my thought process implies something else happening that changes **** around but i dont see it. everyone can di now

you left out the part where kage beat mango's falco and puff making ganon the best character in melee cuz he is strong and has mindgames. LOOOL

i'm curious as to whether or not you're trying to troll...

 

[TheGeneral]

Hey, Raynex, or anyone with lots of tourney experience, could you critique this video from a tourney I just went to.

I'll say a few things to save you time. I only have one video up because that's the only one I played at the recording set-up. I know I air-dodged a lot. I will work on not doing that so often. I also realized I spot dodge a lot vs Marth ( suggestions for alternative moves are welcome ). And the most important thing to realize is that my strategy right now is to get a solid fox as my random character ( first match ) and then switch to peach and a good cp if I lose ( I'm actually a peach main ). That's all, thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JyOQcvkQXs

 

[TheManaLord]

you left out the part where kage beat mango's falco and puff making ganon the best character in melee cuz he is strong and has mindgames. LOOOL

i'm curious as to whether or not you're trying to troll...

Just being brutally honest. Smash scene took a massive hit in 08. This year was recovery but man if 2010 doesn't work out it's done.


It's really stupid to consider Fox the best character. Fox he been top tier or the best character in the game according to our tier list for how long? He's never had a consistent reign as champion from any professional. If theory crafting is shunned upon so much how is Fox still the best? Nobody has done it. Falco and Jiggs are better.


Before anyone brings in the statement that mango could probably do it, I'd love to see it. Yeah mango beat hungrybox at winterfest. but it wasn't a blowout, the matchup is even, and mango is the best player in the world and hungrybox has lost to good foxes in the past of much less notoriety than mango (colbol) dsw.

I'd like to see mango's fox take a number of tournaments versus top players... armada? calle w's falco? m2k?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

player preference somehow = tier list?

all of the top tiers and high tiers are good enough to beat each other and good enough to overcome bad matchups.

mango played puff cause he liked the character of puff. then he picks up falco after seeing crazy stuff DSW does. If he has no interest in playing characters like marth, fox or peach, does that have anything to do with how good those characters are?


idk you're looking at smash history and who the top players are and then taking their preferred characters and then trying to claim good characters are broken and broken characters are only pretty good.


tl;dr player preference and ranking over time is not related to character ranking

 

[TheManaLord]

It's not that the players can't, it's that the characters can't. Fox just doesn't cut it and he never has since the games been out.

This game has been out long enough, the tier list is reprasentative of relevent tournament scene play... not matchups. What if a character had 0:10 matchups with the three most played chars at tourny, but 10:0 every other matchup? They'd still overall have the best matchups but in an average tournament wouldn't make it anywhere.

Basing the tier list on matchups really doesn't depict the smash meta game and although they should definitely be a factor character relevance in tournaments is also a factor.

 

[Tomacawk]

I agree 100% with themanalord. I don't see how fox can be the best character, at all. If we're talking perfect play, then I find that he is the best. But due to his fragility and the sheer impossibilities of perfect tech skill and decision making, fox can never be the best character. How many foxes win national tournies?
I don't understand making a tier list based entirely on "ifs". Just look at what characters win tournies and place high consistently
EDIT-I mean to say that who is winning is more important than the theorycrafting, but obviously more plays into the decision than who is winning

 

[LumpyCPU...]

ok. you're right.
whoever the current "reigning champion" uses is the best character in the game.
that's not ignorant... and this isn't sarcasm... LOOOL

 

[TheManaLord]

That's not what I'm saying.

At this more evolved form of gameplay we have today (better DI more general smash knowledge and awareness and exposure) the characters that are on top will continue to be on top. It's been this way for a past couple of years.

The gameplay today is more suited for Puff and Falco to be on top. Technical ability and efficiency with both of these characters (as demonstrated by lots of puff and falco players) will put them above the rest of the cast.

It's not like puff just started winning or mangos falco just came out, it's been long enough.

and what I'm saying is refuting that the current champions char = the current best char. Fox hasn't been the best ever in tournaments and he's been on every iteration of the tier list either the top or top tier...


I'm sorry my first post on this matter was random as hell and unpunctuated. I was drunk and stoned as **** lol

 

[LumpyCPU...]

haha nice

well in my opinion, fox's speed, mobility and move set is well suited for any situation and any match up beyond the point of doubt.

 

[4 Aces]

Is there a guide to the timings and lengths of the Illusion? I can't seem to find it, and I'd like to master this technique.

 

[Tomacawk]

your guide is your practice
knowing the frame # would be totally useless
just do it until you get it.

 

[StealthyGunnar]

Could someone possibly help me with waveshining? I know how to do it, but I can only get 2 in at Max. Is there any way I could practice it or something? It seems that I'm not getting the wavedash correctly because I'll usually dodge forward instead of wavedashing...



EDIT: To Lumpy, yes that's true, but like, Marth's sword is broken and just comboes the crap out of Fox, unless Fox can get a shine in which is hard cuz of the broken sword...

 

[Tomacawk]

CA5H, you're mispositioning your control stick. You should angle it downwards more if you're air dodging sideways

 

[PEEF!]

I think Puff is a better character than Fox.

I would even say that that matchup could be in Puff's favor. The best Puffs really don't have an issue with it.

 

[Meneks]

your guide is your practice
knowing the frame # would be totally useless
just do it until you get it.

I agree with this to the maximum fullest?
Numbers can only do so much..
Just play the game and have fun practicing..
No need to do math equations on a nintendo video game..
No offense to those math lovers

 

[4 Aces]

your guide is your practice
knowing the frame # would be totally useless
just do it until you get it.

Sure, but I'd at least like to know how many lengths there are to it.

 

[Lovage]

i think there's 5 total lengths for illusion

maybe 4

if you master this technique you can trick your opponent