Fox ditto tips?

[Jake The Preacher]

I'm okay at some matchups, but this one has me stumped, help?

 

[Blade-Fox]

Welcome to hell!

On a serious note, what about the matchup is stumping you?

 

[Jake The Preacher]

I think it's just speed that's getting me. I'm just now starting to want to travel for tourneys and none of my friends play him. I've played some CPU's and they get me a little bit, I still win but against them that doesn't mean anything. I think it's just escaping start up's, if that's possible, and starting things myself

 

[Blade-Fox]

Fox dittos are a very brutal and stressful matchup (at least for me they are). They're very fast paced and one mistake can be a stock. I've had some Fox dittos where you're just taking turns near 0-deathing each other.

It's the same game plan for many of Fox's other matchups though:

* Dash-dance/laser camp to bait openings in the neutral game.
* When you get that opening, N-Air -> Shine, Grab - > U-Throw, or Aerial -> Shine pressure on their shield
* Repeat till kill percentage then U-Smash or Side Smash or Grab -> U-Throw -> U-Air/B-Air
* If offstage, gimp with shine or just grab the ledge.

 

[Jake The Preacher]

Perfect plan, thanks man :D

 

[Nemiak temp]

GRAB. Up throw chaingrab works til like 60 percent and leads to an upsmash. If you can't do the chain grab (kinda tough) just go for up throw into up-tilts/smashes. The fox that Dash Dances more (be smart with your DD, dont just do it, use it to bait approaches then punish with a pivot grab or nair or whatever) typically wins this matchup. Edgeguarding fox (as fox) is a lot more involved than Blade-Fox suggests. Whenever you knock fox offstage stay near the ledge if they are at a position where they can side-b. If they do you can react with an f-tilt to knock them back offstage (and below the stage). At this point grab ledge and wait for them to recover. If they try to hug the wall of the stage shine back air them. (Shine-jump-immediately back air). If you hit them with the shine they can potentially SDI into the wall and tech. The back air will cover this option as they will often times wall jump into it after the tech. Nair is also good for interrupting the side-b. As for approaching options in this ditto: DON'T. Fox can really wreck another fox if given the opportunity, limit your opponents opportunities and play as safe as possible. Shffld nair/dair shines are unsafe and will often lead to you getting grabbed/up-smashed etc. Approaching with a waveshine isn't necessarily safe BUT it is a great mixup/burst of aggresion. Waveshine into a jab reset (forces opponent into getup animation OR to getup attack/roll if he/she buffers it). Punish your opponents getup with a falling up air or grab. If they getup attack just DD out of the attacks range and punish with a grab.
BE CAREFUL AT THE LEDGE. Be very wary of your double jump. Don't immediately use your jump while off-stage because you panic. Many players will read this and just jump at you and shine. Experiment with your up-B and figure out what angles are the hardest to edgeguard and try to get yourself in a position where you can use those.

 

[Catchy]

I've found the most success in laser camping, punishing bad approaches with CC shine or upsmash, up air to cover tech in place and solid grab and edge guarding games. If you end up on FD against fox, you need to chain grab to get a real percent going. It works until 65 when no DI can get them out, I like to uptilt them instead of making the last grab, then you got them at about 65ish and can usually bair offstage and cover ledge. I'm just a scrub fox but Nemiak temp is completely right in everything he's saying here. Run shine is especially helpful in this match for both getting a grab, starting thunders combo, or just forcing the opponent to pick an option. Make sure you're not just throwing nairs out in this matchup because if the opponent catches you, they're usually fast enough to punish with something like upsmash or if they're at low percents crouch cancel shine. Remember things like shine OOS in this matchup too if he starts going for your shield. 5 frames is REALLY quick. Dash dance is also super helpful in this matchup as punishing bad movement/bad moves with upsmash, waveshine, grab, nair, and dash attack is helpful (careful not to get CCed if you do the last 2). For me, dash attack is super helpful if they're not at a low percent because you can dash out, then immediately dash attack in. Dash attacks can usually lead into things like uptilt or upsmash. A good nair can lead into dash attack and upsmash too. Remember, just as important as the neutral is, covering options is important too. I've seen players like Zero and Leffen backthrow slightly out of middle of stage to throw the player off for shine spikes, edgeguarding. Good players will DI that so be prepared to cover the platform with usually a nair, and if that doesn't hit, dash attack back. You can see this used in like few minutes in Leffen vs. PPMD at MLG. Remember other basic things like to ledge dash with invincibility, upsmash oos, downsmash at the ledge, downtilt and dash attacks to cover missed techs/poor spacing. most importantly though, i think you should use up air on tech in place. According to the Ace Arwing Pilot Fox Mccloud guide, the first hit activates on frame 8 and the second hit ends on frame 14, so it's both fast and ends quick. The lcancel is only 9 frames, so you can instinctively cover tech in place and then move on for roll away or missed tech. Lucky mentions up air on tech in place in his Favorite fox techniques guide. Upair (on super low percents) can lead into shine (but you shouldn't try to go for anything from that since they will act quickly after being hit from the air), upair again, upsmash, and probably a number of other things. AMAZING coverage since you can scare the opponent into not teching in place. Your OOS options are almost always going to be wavedash out, jump out, bair, or shine. That's probably all I got for now at least. In study hall at school. I know this is months later, but good luck man. Check out those guides.

Edit: oh crap this is pm not melee