LinkGadra
Smash Apprentice
Hmm. I'd say neutral, but I know how the tournament rules prefer to err on the side of caution, so it will probably end up counterpick.
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Frigate Orpheon: Neutral or not?
- Thread starter Meteor!
- Start date
That seemed like an extremely rare case that could be avoidable with experience on the stage. Not to mention, I see no reason why it would be specific to certain characters.
The Great Leon
Smash Champion
This puts tetherers at a disadvantage. It would make sense, then, for it not to be a Neutral Stage, but an excellent Counter Pick vs tether foes.
Endless Nightmares
Smash Master
Hey guys, let's keep making johns about why this should be a neutral stage, and ignore evidence that says otherwise!
HugS
Smash Champion
I vote neutral. It's a refreshing take on the "neutral" format, which usually just comes down to 3 stagnant platforms. I like this stage.
Droly
Smash Ace
Obviously Neutral
Still, stages with the potential to kill that easily shouldn't be neutral. IIRC, no stages with damage or knockback inducing hazards were neutral in Melee, why shouldn't this be true in Brawl?
Correct... and this stage has no damage nor knockback... It has a stage transformation that can kill people if they aren't used to the stage.
The cloud on Yoshi's Story has claimed far more lives than this flip will.
The cloud on Yoshi's Story has claimed far more lives than this flip will.
I call a rotating, stage-sized, really fast moving, solid projectile that is really hard to avoid if you get knocked into its path "knockback", in the sense that it knocks you back by pushing you with it. As for the cloud on YS, you could dodge that pretty easily, at least compared to a giant stage flying up towards you.
It's not that there is a high chance of getting hit by a stage flip, it';s just that a player gains an undue advantage by knocking you a little ways off the stage at a certain time, and this advantage can be devastating, whereas knocking your opponent onto the same side as the cloud on YS was never a really big problem for the recvering player..
It's not that there is a high chance of getting hit by a stage flip, it';s just that a player gains an undue advantage by knocking you a little ways off the stage at a certain time, and this advantage can be devastating, whereas knocking your opponent onto the same side as the cloud on YS was never a really big problem for the recvering player..
But the thing is, it's clearly announced and forecast. It isn't like you are hit and then the stage just happens to flip. If you both know it's going to happen, and you knock your opponent into it, that's skill and not random chance.
It's random, unpredictable things that take away from the game.
It's random, unpredictable things that take away from the game.
Meteor!
Smash Journeyman
That's exactly how I feel about this stage and Luigi's Mansion.
themastaofbrawl64
Smash Cadet
I know I sound stupid, but what does a nuetral stage mean, and if a stage isn't nuetral, then what is it?
W/e. The flip still creates positional advantages and disadvantages, for instance, if you've just been knocked a long ways and the alarm sounds, you're probably screwed. The offensive player didn't do that work. He doesn't deserve a kill if his hit wouldn't have outright killed you. The flip introduces a freebie for one player, which shouldn't be allowed on neutral.
Plus, the stage isn't truly neutral to all characters. I understand that no stage truly is, but this is worse than Melee's FD/Falco's lasers. The right side of the initial stage (pre flip) cannot be edge grabbed. This gimps Ivysaur and Olimar's recoveries (and ZSS's to an extent), so I'm in favor of Frigate being a counterpick.
Johnknight1
Upward and Forward, Positive and Persistent
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- Johnknight1
- 3DS FC
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If you die from that flip, you probably run into Falcon and Warlock Punches on a regular basis. Seriously, you have to be retarted to die like that. It's neutral as hell. A lot more neutral then the ever unneutral and boringly bland Final Destination (it's not that neutral; it's more of a spammer hell hold).
Mikezor
Smash Journeyman
Counterpick.
orintemple
Smash Lord
I don't think the flip is a big deal but if it is true that you can't grab the right side of the stage then it shouldn't be neutral. Anyone with tether recovery is useless there.
Keep in mind, tether recoveries can pick the stage to ban if they really feel disadvantaged there.
That's why we have personal bans: To keep stages legal when only a few of the matchups pose problems.
That's why we have personal bans: To keep stages legal when only a few of the matchups pose problems.
Meteor!
Smash Journeyman
^
That. The ungrabable ledges are only on one side of one of the flips. It's a very good neutral stage.
That. The ungrabable ledges are only on one side of one of the flips. It's a very good neutral stage.
I do agree that if both sides were non-tetherable, we'd have a large enough bias to warrant counter-pick status; it's unfair to have a neutral stage that some characters would have to always ban. However, the tether characters can still be expected to win their fair share of matchups if this disability only applies to half the stage half the time. Especially PT and Zamus who can easily work around it... Only Olimar has real cause for concern on this stage, and he is looking to be a high enough tier that few will cry foul if Frigate is Neutral.
In short, Frigate appears more balanced among matchups than say Yoshi's Story or Dreamland in Melee: stages that had a non-extreme but obvious bias, and that were probably only okay being Neutral because people could ban them.
In short, Frigate appears more balanced among matchups than say Yoshi's Story or Dreamland in Melee: stages that had a non-extreme but obvious bias, and that were probably only okay being Neutral because people could ban them.
Chrono Centaur
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2008
- Messages
- 137
Counterpick. Why? It can screw with Olimar users, knocking all their Pikimin off the stage.
lol, I don't know how to spell both Olimar and Pikimin so don't kill me plz ;_;
lol, I don't know how to spell both Olimar and Pikimin so don't kill me plz ;_;
ZMan
Smash Master
A stage that screws up one character's recovery isn't enough to warrent a counter. Yoshi Story in melee screwed up NEss's recovery (Shy Guys) and the stage was a neutral.
SothE700k
Smash Lord
Well that's interesting...the flip is so fast that characters can just stand there and they will still be there, no budge after the flip. I would consider it neutral for that. As for Olimar's pikmin, that's weird...but hey, just like the Ness recovery example, it can still be neutral. Plus I don't see any hazards or level differences.
Endless Nightmares
Smash Master
Jellybelly
Smash Ace
Well he tried to tether a ledge that didn't exist.
Seems to me that the more people play with the stage the more likely it will become tourney legal. If Romo knew how the flip worked then he would have double jumped upon re-entry to the match. Knowledge equals power.
Seems to me that the more people play with the stage the more likely it will become tourney legal. If Romo knew how the flip worked then he would have double jumped upon re-entry to the match. Knowledge equals power.
skyler123456789
Smash Apprentice
banned. needs more flatness
It's not neutral if it screws a whole bunch of characters over. Olimar gets majorly screwed, for this reason alone, it cannot be considered neutral. All Tether Recovery characters have to camp the edges while people with "normal" recoveries can double Jump Up B no matter where they are on the stage if they're fast enough.
This is hardly neutral. I still think it should foremost be banned, though.
This is hardly neutral. I still think it should foremost be banned, though.
joeysmash
Smash Ace
everything you say yuna calls for a ban or negativity about something in the game,
its a neutral stage folks or at least it SHOULD be.
0RLY
A great conversation filler at bars and parties
This should be neutral. Stage changes never stopped Poke Sta from being neutral, did it?
CrazyShaman
Smash Apprentice
CP, not for the flip, but for the tether recoveries.
Chicobo329
Smash Cadet
Neutral. Once people start playing this stage tomorrow and beyond and get used to it, it'll be second nature to avoid dying from the flip.
WiiWouldLikeTwoPlay
Smash Ace
The reverse is announced within a good amount of time of the action. I'd say neutral.
SothE700k
Smash Lord
I wouldn't say ban it. Counterpick sounds much more understandable. Its like Poke Floats from Melee: fixed pattern, some people are used to it, others are not and some characters thrive on this stage while others get the ax (like people have said, Olimar)
Definitely NOT neutral. If it did not flip at all, then consideration for neutral would be possible. But it does not stay in one spot such as Final D or Battlefield.
Definitely NOT neutral. If it did not flip at all, then consideration for neutral would be possible. But it does not stay in one spot such as Final D or Battlefield.
Gamekidadv
Smash Cadet
No. It creates a wall, but next to a moving platform, so its only temporary and impossible to perform wall
infinities on.
infinities on.
I don't understand why people are so interested in debating the flip. Tether characters can be easily gimped by being knocked off the right side of the first transformation. That is a good enough reason to make it a counterpick, flip or not.