Game Physics and the Ken Combo

[Pye]

Hey Melee Community,

I have a pair of quick questions, one on game physics and one specifically about the Ken Combo that's related to it.

First of all, I've always understood that each individual attack, regardless of context, has its own knockback, its own momentum, hitstun and its own potential for DI, etc etc. For example, lets say I'm Marth against another Marth. My opponent is at 50%, and I land a tippered fair on him. It has a certain knockback and direction, and a certain hitstun.

Now take a similar situation, except I use a nair, which brings him to 50%, then combo into a tippered fair. This fair, to my understanding, will have the same properties (knockback, direction, hitstun and DI-ability) as the fair in the first example.

A friend of mine claims that momentum from previous attacks in a combo tack on to subsequent attacks. By his claim, in the above example, the tipped fair that followed the nair will have slightly more knockback in the direction that the nair sent my opponent (this is without any DI).

Which one of us is correct?

Second of all, my friend claims that a straight-up Ken Combo (meaning fair -> dair) with no other lead-up is inescapable (except at high percents. He said 120+). I'm almost certain he's wrong. Any clip I've shown him of a Ken Combo missing, he claims was either due to the lead-up in the combo adding momentum (which is what my first question is for) that allowed escape, or because the Marth used his double jump before the dair. He claims that if there's no lead-up, you can't even DI out of a fair -> dair combo; you won't get far enough away.

Can someone explain just how consistant and/or situational the Ken Combo is? I was under the impression it was situational, but he claims it's a sure thing.

Thanks in advance!

 

[keeper]

For the first one:
By his logic, getting hit really hard then hitting one of Samus's bombs would do nothing to you, but it does basically stop you (who takes knockback from a morph ball bomb?).

For the second, I'd say it really depends on the Marth's momentum and the other person's DI.


Edit: That's how I understand it anyway.

 

[Tazumili]

Your friend is wrong. An easy way to prove this is to hit someone with Marth's fair, then take a Samus and use a bomb (like keeper said) on that character as he's being knocked back. Since it has its individual knockback and hitstun, that character will instantly experience the effects of being hit with a samus bomb while jumping.

 

[Vsin]

In other words, you can kill the momentum from a 300% Falcon Punch with a Falco Laser.

 

[CrypTik]

your friend is wrong. An example I can give that proves him wrong is when my friend and I were playing teams and he landed a rest and I jabbed the person who got rested and the "restee" stayed in place.

and I do not understand the second question. Mainly because I stopped reading it.

 

[Mokumo]

I do believe your friend is wrong about the ken combo thing too. The genius behind the ken combo is that if you DI in, you get spiked and die and if you DI away, you get edgeguarded and die. but yeah, it is possible to DI away from marth's fair to avoid the spike, but if you DI off the stage, you're still in a bad position because marth can keep you off of it.

 

[Pye]

I've already pointed out Falco's lasers and Samus' bombs stopping people dead in their tracks, he responded by saying those attacks were designed to do so since they had no knockback and thus didn't operate the same way. That makes no sense, but I used a jab as an example and he said nothing coherent about it.

As for the Ken combo, Mokumo, that's what I'd heard about it since I first learned Marth's gameplay, and I've seen many fairs that obviously could not have linked into a dair.

Thanks for the replies, guys!

Since you guys all seem to agree with me, I'll leave it at that. Thanks a bunch!

 

[Sybawave]

No his friend is right. Combos will make you go farther than normal if the attack was by itself.

You're doing it wrong. They don't stack like that they just give more force to the next moves normal knock back.

 

[Cosmo!]

melee physics are weird. you're both right and wrong. MAGUS !!!!!

 

[Geist]

No, attacks are independent and cancel each other out, but I'm pretty sure there are special cases. If you fsmash a person into my fsmash, they are launched in the direction my fsmash would have taken them by itself. This is the same for all moves. What I don't know for sure is whether moves in the same direction have stacked momentum. I'm pretty sure they don't.

 

[Cosmo!]

when you do dair-shine 3x on a fox and he flies up, something's going on there. lol

 

[TheManaLord]

whers magus

 

[Pye]

No, attacks are independent and cancel each other out, but I'm pretty sure there are special cases. If you fsmash a person into my fsmash, they are launched in the direction my fsmash would have taken them by itself. This is the same for all moves. What I don't know for sure is whether moves in the same direction have stacked momentum. I'm pretty sure they don't.

Why should it be different? Moves overwrite each other when going against each other, but add up if they go in the same direction? If momentum adds, it should always add. I'm also pretty sure this shouldn't happen.

No his friend is right. Combos will make you go farther than normal if the attack was by itself.

You're doing it wrong. They don't stack like that they just give more force to the next moves normal knock back.

Each successive move in a combo will knock you back farther and farther, but I'm pretty sure that's only because you're gaining percent after each hit, NOT because you're keeping the momentum from previous attacks.

I see no reason to believe that momentum in a combo adds up and affects future attacks. It demonstrably does not work like this when you take it to extreme examples, like using Falco's Lasers to stop people in mid-flight, or stopping Rest's knockback by jabbing the "restee", as CrypTik said.

Which is why I'm asking if anyone knows for sure

 

[DtJ Jungle]

You can Di the ken combo..,i mean who gets hit by that anymore

 

[joeplicate]

I think it's just that momentum from some moves carry over in a glitchy sort of way, like sometimes when falco shines a fox after a dair when they landed on the ground, fox will fly up and hang in the air for a long time.

Ken combo is usually all normal though, I think.

 

[Sybawave]

Why should it be different? Moves overwrite each other when going against each other, but add up if they go in the same direction? If momentum adds, it should always add. I'm also pretty sure this shouldn't happen.



Each successive move in a combo will knock you back farther and farther, but I'm pretty sure that's only because you're gaining percent after each hit, NOT because you're keeping the momentum from previous attacks.

I see no reason to believe that momentum in a combo adds up and affects future attacks. It demonstrably does not work like this when you take it to extreme examples, like using Falco's Lasers to stop people in mid-flight, or stopping Rest's knockback by jabbing the "restee", as CrypTik said.

Which is why I'm asking if anyone knows for sure

Yeah, I was trying to be sarcastic lol and you caught it lol w00t

 

[KirbyKaze]

some moves do, some moves don't, and it depends on when you're hit.

if you want a good example, knee someone into the lava on brinstar at a reasonable percent (~70). often, even with good di, they'll bounce sideways off the side and die from the lava because of the knee momentum.

or, for an easier test case, shine someone up with falco (a floaty, for demonstrational purposes) and dair them afterwards. sometimes, they'll take the full knockback of the dair (it will override the shine) and other times it will strike them down very, very slowly because of the momentum the shine gave them when they were sent up.

this is smash. there's a weird case for everything.

i've seen people get baired after they're hit by rest in the opposite direction and get shot straight up when they weren't survival diing. i'm about 90% convinced that it has something to do with the two momentums moving in opposite directions (fox bairs btw) but i'm not entirely sure so i'll wait for someone more knowledgeable to come in here.

edit: the ken combo only works 100% on computers and people who play like computers. sometimes it will actually just be inescapable but it depends on all sorts of factors including to whether or not they have their jump, di, how much momentum marth had when moving in the direction he was comboing, etc.

 

[metashinryu]

i have a doubt on this same idea

when you triple knee someone,damage decreases for the move,but it REALLY seems he gets farther than with 3 normal knees without chaining,its true or just me?

and whats up with falcos shine dair at mid high percent? the dair doesnt seem to hurl him down as fast as just dairing him,and at low5 almosd not moves him,that really conflicts with some of your ideas people...

 

[Red the Ghost]

Wouldn't the shine -> upsmash from the wombo combo be an example of added momentum?

 

[KevinM]

Or the shine just pushed him into a different hitbox of the Usmash.

Edit: However the shine is weird in general look at the Shine Dair, it slows their descent and the amount of the descent in general with Falco.

 

[Pye]

Wouldn't the shine -> upsmash from the wombo combo be an example of added momentum?

A much simpler explaination is that Fox was simply DIing that way. That trajectory is, after all, the expected result of perpendicular DI on an upsmash. Perhaps Fox was expecting an upthrow.

As KevinM says, hitting an odd upsmash hitbox is an option too. One that fairs better under Occam's razor.

[...]or, for an easier test case, shine someone up with falco (a floaty, for demonstrational purposes) and dair them afterwards. sometimes, they'll take the full knockback of the dair (it will override the shine) and other times it will strike them down very, very slowly because of the momentum the shine gave them when they were sent up.

[...]

i've seen people get baired after they're hit by rest in the opposite direction and get shot straight up when they weren't survival diing. i'm about 90% convinced that it has something to do with the two momentums moving in opposite directions (fox bairs btw) but i'm not entirely sure so i'll wait for someone more knowledgeable to come in here

I suppose exceptions are possible. I've seen plenty of stuff like what you say as well, and most players have. Like you said, Melee is a strange game in terms of physics

I can't really provide a supported alternative to those things. I guess we'll have to wait for Magus

 

[Rubyiris]

You can Di the ken combo..,i mean who gets hit by that anymore

I can link you to Forward vs Taj's sets, which happened this year, and feature MANY aerial - dair finishers.

 

[SOLAR]

Yes, momentum carries over. You can tell this from the shine to upsmash combo. If you upsmash, they will go straight up, but if you shine then JC upsmash, they go up and to the direction you shined them. Try it

 

[metashinryu]

Yes, momentum carries over. You can tell this from the shine to upsmash combo. If you upsmash, they will go straight up, but if you shine then JC upsmash, they go up and to the direction you shined them. Try it

well,if thats true,it would explain how captain combos kill at 60% sometimes,and how shine dairing with falco at high% has so weak knockback(not always,but if you land one at 120% shining in the air and dj a dair before they get far,you WILL see what i mean)

 

[MattNF]

Your friend is actually partially correct. Momentum from previous moves DOES transfer over to the next move. There are certain exceptions, like Falco's lasers and certain jabs.

For proof that momentum transfers over, watch the Wombo Combo. Namely the part where Fox does shine -> Usmash. Normally, the Usmash would NOT send Zhu as far horizontally as it did. But the Shine directly before it added horizontal momentum, and the Usmash added vertical momentum, which made Zhu in a perfect position to get Knee'd.

EDIT: ****, SOLAR beat me to it.

 

[metashinryu]

hell,now that means i will need to learn triple-kneeing on command XD

 

[2.72]

Normally, the Usmash would NOT send Zhu as far horizontally as it did.

Yes, it certainly can! Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cin19aaQvDM&feature=related

It depends on the part of the hitbox.

 

[metashinryu]

Yes, it certainly can! Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cin19aaQvDM&feature=related

It depends on the part of the hitbox.

i have only seen that on the back of the usmash ,maybe he touched the back of hitbox and was sent on opposite direction or something,kinda like when you knee someone with the upper part and they fly backwards.

 

[metashinryu]

ok,sorry for the double post but:

i have a new example on how momentum carries on

play as falcon vs a floaty lv1 cpu(i used marth)

put him up to 20-40% of damage

shffl a stomp as fast as you can to hit him with falcon nipple spike(or those hitboxes that make him go on an angle) while hes on the ground,he will pop up, instantly do a raptor boost(side b) assuming yo shffled it as i said and the percent was ok for him to pop up but not as high to not hit him with raptor boost, he will fly up ON A DIAGONAL ANGLE because of the momentum of the stomp(with upper hitbox/nipple) was still active.

i hope this contributes in some way

 

[2.72]

I think that level 1 cpus have really weird DI, although I use level 3's when I feel the urge to combo computers so I'm not sure. Use practice mode instead; I think that they don't DI.

I think you're right about the upsmash in the video I posted. However, in practice mode I got my punching bag (also Marth) to fly at about a 60-degree angle from the horizontal by hitting with the very tip of the hitbox. The usmash in the wombo combo sent him at closer to a 30 degree angle. A net change of 30 degrees is well within the limits of what DI can accomplish.

 

[metashinryu]

I think that level 1 cpus have really weird DI, although I use level 3's when I feel the urge to combo computers so I'm not sure. Use practice mode instead; I think that they don't DI.

I think you're right about the upsmash in the video I posted. However, in practice mode I got my punching bag (also Marth) to fly at about a 60-degree angle from the horizontal by hitting with the very tip of the hitbox. The usmash in the wombo combo sent him at closer to a 30 degree angle. A net change of 30 degrees is well within the limits of what DI can accomplish.

yeah,i know lv1 has weird DI but,they always do it towards you,so its almost safe to say that my example is valid.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

lol what about jabs that dont kill at 999?

 

[metashinryu]

thats why they are called jabs,they have like set knockback or something,like fox shine

 

[AXE 09]

you know what? i've been wondering about this kind of logic also. have you ever messed with the sandbag in the Home run contest? well, if you notice, a lot of times if you hit the bag while it's moving (say you hit it off the backwall or something), it will have a different path than it would if you were to just hit it at the same damage. for example.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWIs-amJ8ds

why did the bag go further than it would have if you just regularly shined it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9FepPNz-9M&feature=related

shouldn't the last U-tilt send it straight up if knockback is always the same? and shouldn't the last laster have technically stopped it? it kinda seems like previous moves really do have an effect on the direction your opponent travels after another hit.

 

[Dark Sonic]

What melee probably does is not add momentum, but mearly change the angle of the next attack BASED on the angle and momentum of the previous attack if the two attacks are sending them in the same general direction, but CANCEL the momentum from the previous attack if they are being sent in a completely different direction.

We could probably just test it by having Fox upsmash Jigglpuff at 70% and then having Marth uair her and see if she dies. If she doesn't die then the momentum from the upsmash was not completely added to Marth's uair (they're the exact same direction so...)

We already know that attacks in different directions get overriden.

As for the Ken combo, yes you can DI away to get out of it. At certain percents it's inescapable if the Marth is in a full run and full jumps to hit with the bottom of a tipped fair and the opponent is a fast faller at fairly high percent (lot's of conditions lol). But then you could just DI behind Marth and get spike into the stage instead of trying to DI away only to be clipped by Marth's dair at max horizontal range