D
Deleted member
Guest
Pure poetry.
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Gameplay: Brawl>64>Melee
- Thread starter P.E
- Start date
I still fail to see how that LIMITS options, sure it CHANGES the options, but with those changes i don't see how its possible for there to not be new options.
Ok, so the approach game isn't the same as it was in melee, that just means it changes the way you approach, not that you suddenly cannot approach strategicly. Acctually From the videos i've seen the approach game seems fine, sure SHL isn't as hot, but Shffl'ed arials still shine bright, yes there are some new characters with obscure techs we haven't completely delved into yet but that doesn't mean the approach game is lacking. I mean seriously, Pit is pretty awsome, he can fly up shot some arrows and then glide in for a glide canceled Uair or fair and then follow up with an arial combo. (not that im advocating pit, just a nice example)
Shield pressure only is really different because alot of the 'pressure moves' such as shine and peach's down smash have been nerfed, it has nothing to do with the actual mechanics of the shield from what i've seen.
Mix ups? you can mix almost anything up at any time in any game, i don't see how an engine can do this by its self
Combo is short for Combination ( i know you know that its just a segway) there will always be combinations of attacks you can engage in to defeat your opponent, they are different yes, more focused on the arial game now, but they are still there though they work differently, so you really aren't losing options.
Edge guarding is still there too. Yes, it is much easier to recover so edgeguarding is extremely difficult now, but that just changes the way you have to edge guard, i predict more "off the ledge" edgeguarding, and edgehugging, see, You lost no options and one previous one becomes easier to enact. so no depth is lost.
Ok, here's where i aggree with you. There isn't an advanced movement option. That is something we do need to look for, other than that everything is there.
Mind games have almost nothing to do with the game engine, more to do with the mind. That option is not lost
Lag cancelling is still there, some moves have less lag, some only cancel lag on a specific frame of the attack. This option is not lost, it has only changed colors.
I know shield stun is lessened, i still don't see this as a loss of options, it just makes eating someone's sheild less valuble, just grab them out of their shield. Ok, so half an option lost.
As i understand there is more hit stun in brawl similar to sb64. Still, it doesn't remove an option, just replaces them with new ones. Postioning is far more important now.
super armor on grabs? i don't know what this is, so please explain. Thank you
So all in all i see no depth lost in what you said, sure somethings are less paramount then they were in Melee but other things have become more paramount. Finding an advanced Movement tech and prefecting it is the first task we have with brawl. other than that its golden.
Yay! Real open exchange of ideas! i knew it could happen *hugs SWF*
If this was sarcasm it's brilliant. If it's not you best lie and say it was because its an amazing failure if its not >.>
D
Deleted member
Guest
I think you mean it's amazing truth.
-Not using glitches if you could is stupid
-"not playing the game the way it was intended" is NOT a quote from me so don´t pretend it would be, liar
-there´s nothing wrong with playing the game at a high level. That´s what games are all about. Losing, winning and becoming better.
Pardon? You can play the way you want. But if you want to play against me, I would suggest a stock-match, no items (some are just too strong, but I like playing with Items, too) and random stage.
You don´t know me, so don´t call me a loser. And please be more precise when you call me names cause I only know the TV-show "scrubs".
Get it on. What´s the point of playing a multiplayer game not competitively, anyway? (Except Coop-games and when you play with newbies).
We? Like you and G.Washington or who do mean by "we". It´s not bothering me how many of you play Melee. I even kinda appreciate it but like the gameplay of Melee. Can´t you see the difference? I don´t hate you, I just prefer the gameplay of the 1st Smash Bros game (and Brawl, but maybe that will change cause I haven´t played it very much, simply because it´s new). Am I not allowed to have this thing called opinion?
SuperLink9
Smash Lord
I dunno, Mario Kart + Bomberman are hella fun, and they're not always competetive. Great loads of laughs, even when you piss around and don't even try to win.
Because too much was taken out when compared to what little was added.
Almost nothing new was added to aid approach. There is really very few new things for approach that wasn't already there in Melee. In comparison, we lost a whole truckload of ATs that aided approach.
How is this not limiting it?! A lot of options were removed, few were added. A lot of the old options have also been gimped. This is limited it.
Very few people can approach aerially safely because of the new shield mechanics, lack of hit- and shieldstun and super armor on grabs.
Pit has a few options others don't, and? There's the truckload of characters without many options. What about them? Are you saying we should all play as one of the very few characters with a good approach-game?
Shield pressure - To put pressure on the shield. To hit someone once or twice and then stop is not shield-pressuring. Smash does not have the High-Mid/Overhead-Low mixup. Shield-pressure was key to finding openings. Now we don't have it.
Brawl is a turtling game. Turtling is bad for competitive play.
You can. You just won't be safe.
Too bad most aerials cannot be comboed from because of the lessened hitstun (they can hit you back faster than you stop lagging and can jump after all) and the new floatiness to all characters. Less hitstun - More floatiness - New knockback system = Less comboing. Very few characters can combo, especially in the air.
Most of the time, the opponent can recover enough to airdodge, aerial you back or simply jump or air control away.
Combos are very limited now because of the new mechanics. These are hard facts.
Why is "off the ledge" edgeguarding easier now? What possible change made it easier?! It was there in Melee. It hasn't been improved in Brawl because of the lesser knockback in general, floatiness making it easier to recover (so if they don't die from the edgeguard, they'll just DI and recover really high up), floatiness which makes it so that pretty much everyone will recover high almost every single time, making it much harder to edgeguard them, the new airdodge system makes it easier to airdodge attacks as well since you will be able to move afterwards.
Less hitstun means that even if you hit someone far away, they'll recover fast enough to use recovery moves anyway.
Everyone's recoveries were also boosted (pretty much). No, edgeguarding has gotten harder in every possible way.
It doesn't have to be advanced. It'd be nice to have more options at all.
Mindgames have everything to do with the game engine. The extent to which one can mindgame is limited by how the game is programmed. Less options = Less room for mindgames.
There's no universal lag cancel and it's also extremely situational.
Yes, because mad dashgrabbing worked so well in Melee!
There is less hitstun. Spacing was always important. Now it's vital... which is bad for the many characters who aren't safe on aerial approach even with proper spacing.
Because there's less hitstun and shieldstun, you are also limited to only lagless moves since characters can just shielddrop smash/tilt/jab you or shieldhop fair/bair/nair you if you do a move with a lot of lag now.
Super armor = You will not flinch but still take damage. Say you jab me twice. I shieldgrab on the 2nd. I take the damage from the jab, yet I'll still shieldgrab you.
There is almost nothing new when it comes to approach, edgeguarding, etc., etc., etc. in Brawl!
Look at it logically.
They removed a bunch of things.
They added a few new things but nothing big (that's universal).
Of course things are more limited now! Yes, emphasis has shifted. But the game is still much more limited than Melee because a whole bunch of options have been removed!
FalseFalco
Smash Master
Yuna you have such good points.
But you're so pretentious and hate-able.
But you're so pretentious and hate-able.
shadydentist
Smash Lord
Just to make things clear:
Hitstun is the amount of time in which you are unable to respond after getting hit. Longer hitstun makes for easier combos.
Hitlag is the amount of time before you go flying from an attack.
SSB64= very long hitstun + 0-lag l-cancel => very long combo chains.
Melee = moderate hitstun + half-lag l-cancel => moderate combo chains
Brawl = extremely short hitstun + no l-cancel => very little comboing.
No matter what you do, its impossible to link together more than a few moves before your opponent is able to respond.
Hitstun is the amount of time in which you are unable to respond after getting hit. Longer hitstun makes for easier combos.
Hitlag is the amount of time before you go flying from an attack.
SSB64= very long hitstun + 0-lag l-cancel => very long combo chains.
Melee = moderate hitstun + half-lag l-cancel => moderate combo chains
Brawl = extremely short hitstun + no l-cancel => very little comboing.
No matter what you do, its impossible to link together more than a few moves before your opponent is able to respond.
Smash 64 was balanced? ROFL. That's why Kirby is pretty much the only character worth using in that game, right? That's why it's full of cheap *** infinite combos and spikes, right? That's why everyone but Kirby has a crappy recovery in that game, right?
How about you actually play Smash 64 for a while and compare it to Melee?
Unless you're trolling, in which case I applaud you. 11/10. You got my *** hook, line, and sinker.
Stop Failing.
Go to the Brawl tactical discussion thread concerning shielding. Shielding is actually godly now, since power shielding is way easier and shields have about 2-3 frames of block stun anyway. The improvement in shielding actually kills a lot of those approach options you discussed, especially since there is no l-cancel now.
I do not think you understand the meaning of "mix-up" in terms of fighting games. I'm not sure 100% myself, but from what I understand, the term mix-up refers to an attack that sets you up to follow with one of a set of other attacks. Your opponent must then guess which move you are going to follow up with. This puts you in a situation where you can "mind game" your opponent. An example would be Fox's down throw in Melee. Let's say Fox can either down smash you, up smash you, shine you, or do nothing after throwing you down. You have to guess what option he's going to take and act accordingly. Your only option here is pretty much to DI or roll to avoid whatever attack he chooses to use. Fox, however, has the option of waiting for you to DI or roll and following up with an attack as you get up. In this case, we could call the down throw a mix up. This may not be the right definition, but by this definition, there are less attacks that accomplish this in Brawl.
In fighting games, combo =/= combination of attacks.
"Combo" specifically refers to a string of attacks that is inescapable or guaranteed once the first hit lands. The reduced hit stun in the game makes comboing way more difficult and thus removes yet another option from our repertoire
.
Edge hogging is utterly less effective now. Edge guarding in general got nerfed. This is yet another option whose viability has been reduced considerably.
Many of the praised mind games from Melee were dependent on advanced techs. Less advanced techs = less mind games. It's just that simple.
Lag canceling is NOT still there. A few characters have a few aerials with no lag, but this isn't nearly the same as l-canceling at all. The lack of l-cancel is the loss of yet another aspect of the game that allowed it to be played at a higher level of competition.
Shielding is godly now. Look it up.
There is LESS hit stun in Brawl. Much less. Look at Mew2Kings thread concerning this. Comboing in general got nerfed thanks to this.
Much of the things that made Melee deep are not present in Brawl or have been nerfed. These things have not been replaced.
Your tone and message here are FAR different from in your original post. You sounded very opposed to the competitive Melee scene, but now you sound like you are apart of it.
Being opposed to competitive Melee is fine, but you were trolling there and that's not fine.
omfgomfg
Smash Lord
why am i the only one who loves 0 to death combos, huge chains and really powerful characters along with Z-Cancelling and hitstun
well anyway i believe that 64 allowed you to be more artistic than melee
well anyway i believe that 64 allowed you to be more artistic than melee
"I think I love you"
Anyway, in fighting games, a mixup is indeed something which keeps your opponents guessing. It must not be something that follows an attack as in 2D fighters, you fall to the floor and must then get up normally (you have no control of when you get up unless you have a teching options). In 3D fighters, you fall to the floor and are then able to simply get up (you can simply choose to remain on the floor) or perform certain moves (different sets of kick moves in Tekken and low and While Rising moves in Soul Calibur III). In 2D games, you cannot be hit while on the ground and can immediately block on stand. In 3D games, you can be hit on the ground but you can also block.
This introduces okizeme where once grounded, you have to guess what your opponent is going to do... this gives them mixup opportunities, especially in 2D games where there is no attacking while rising (unless you have moves with invincibility frames but then the opponent can just bait them and punish).
Mixups in traditional fighters are as follows:
High - Mid/Overhead - Low
High - Hits high. In 2D games, only certain Highs can be ducked under (they can always be blocked low). In 3Ds, Highs can be ducked under, making the Highs whiff (no blockstun).
Mid (3D)/Overhead (2D) - Attack which cannot be blocked low
Low - Attack which has to be blocked low
Grabs/Throws - In 3D games, these can be evaded by crouching (blocking low)
So for mixups, you have several options:
* High attacks, often fast and open up for combos or good for comboing with. However, easily punished if ducked under. There are also moves that techcrouch, moves where you count as crouching while doing them. Highs are therefore used sparingly.
* Mid/Overhead - If you think they'll block low
* Low - Usually good for chipping away damage. In 2D fighting games, lows are used more as they combo better, are usually more useful in terms of power, comboability, strength and speed than Overheads. In 3D games, Mids are used more as they're better than lows in 3D. Lows are mostly used for quick sweeps for little damage, low comboability and possibly to ground your opponent for okizeme
* In 2D fighting games, throws cannot be ducked under. You therefore mixup with Overheads, Lows and Throws.
Of course, while a mixup doesn't necessarily have to be a followup during pressure, it certainly can be. You usally have a few moves with enough frame advantage (the number of frames your opponent is stunned while blocking vs. the cooldown lag you suffer) to followup with a mixup (most mixup moves lag too much to be safe if you don't stop afterwards or they knock your opponents too far away to punish).
Like say you aerial approach with something (all aerials are Mid/Overhead) and then you land with enough frame advantage to throw something else out. You can now choose between a Mid and a Low. Your opponent has to guess what. Depending on the game and the character (and mindgames), you also have the choice to throw your opponent.
This is mixupping.
In Melee, all you have is "A move" vs. "A grab" unless you try to shieldstab them but even that can be prevented through lightshielding or shield-aiming (or whatever it's called). In Brawl, you still only have those options... only there are less moves you can approach with.
Spartan1841
Smash Journeyman
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I'm actually happy that there is no wavedashing (yay) Now competitive whiners can shut up ^_^
Rang Flash
Smash Journeyman
I never said it was easier to rack up damage. I said that it seemed like it's PRIMARILY for racking up damage now. Aerial combos look harder to do because of higher gravity and less hit-stun.
Also, in conjunction with less hit-stun, the fact that everyone's recovery has been buffed leads to less aerial 0-death juggles.
Specifics please.
well we pretty much did in melee and that worked out rather well
but in all honesty, all this does is change the way we approach, almost every character has some form of projectile, or someway to bait there opponent out of their shield, what you say is true, but you over exagerate the problem, its miniscule in the scheme of things.
the few characters don't have projectiles, have some sort of disjointed hitbox to stay at range, to suggest the game is all about Shield turtling is a rediculous claim, it simply isn't true these are hard facts [/QUOTE]
The sheild still shrinks rather quickly in brawl again, to suggest that brawl is a turtling game is simply false, go check out any of Gimpy's Tournament videos on youtube, there isn't a single instance of shield camping and when someone tried they got punished. Nothing was removed, the physcis engine changed so some adjustments must be made, big deal there's no loss here, opennings can still be created by baiting your opponent out of his shield in a variety of manners
ok, so do the same thing back. They counter your arial with one of their own, the you return the favor. So what? now combo's are a series of action->reaction moves, and your choice of reaction is what will distinguish your strategy, what's that? do i smell a new depth to replace an old one? why yes it is
Combos are very different now because of the new mechanics these are hard facts
ok, first of all the overall more floatiness affects you as well, this improves your arial mobility which translates to more intricate arial combat.
Where edgeguarding has become more difficult, edgehogging became easier, that is balance and retains the depth
ok, so that strategy may not be the number one form of killing, however it still exists, edgehogging is better, and now you also have to worry about acctually sending them flying far enough to K.O. them, Big deal. No depth lost here.
Well, infinate jump techs are a semi-option, but we pretty much aggree here
I have shown how the engine does not limit the things you think it does, certain changes are OK, and its really all hyperbole that you are masquerading as "Hard facts"
You wont accept this though so theres no sense in arguing this point with you.
No universal Lag cancell is required, specific situational ones add more specific and skill intesinve depth.
actually it was Mad JCgrabbing, and it was a make or break in alot of specific character matchups so i'll go with yeah
Ok, that's what super armor is, i don't think its that bad, if anything it counteracts that "turtuling" Concern you have any way, so yeah that's balanced
and with how balanced the cast is now, i don't see any character besides maybe yoshi that doesnt have a solid safe approach plan
And the oxygen particles in our atmosphere don't reflect blue light, look at it logically, its simply false these claims you make, how can you refute something based in perspective and oppinion. Look at it with an open mind
Again, you are hyperbolizing the change in the physics engine
Please stop acting like anything that was changed instead of added detracts from the game, Just because all the deep points of the game are or function differently doesn't mean they're not there, they just not carbon copies of the function they had in Melee.
RenX
Smash Apprentice
The Games Not Even Out Stfu
He's been posting specifics all through the thread....
I repeat since you ignored my post. Sheilding is godly now. Read Gimpyfish's thread on this in the Brawl tactical discussion. Even he thinks that shielding will define the Brawl metagame.
Power shielding is easy to do now and power shields don't shrink. Furthermore, there is far less block stun in this game. Who cares how fast your shield shrinks if you can drop it in 2 frames and hit your enemy during the recovery time of their attack?
Combos are certainly different now I agree. They are nerfed to all hell and nearly non-existent.
Floatiness =/= better aerial combat. There were floaties in Melee too, but there aerial combat was in no way superior to fast fallers like Falco and C. Falcon. It's the effectiveness of a character's air moves as well as how little lag the aerials have that determine a good set of aerials. Aerial mobility has actually been nerfed since lag on air moves can no longer be cancelled.
Edge hogging is easier but (gasp) far less effective, so it got nerfed too.
Edge hogging got nerfed as most characters are not nearly as reliant on the edge to get to the stage now. We had to worry about sending them flying back in Melee too, but now we have less ways of keeping them from coming back. Feels like less depth to me.
Not really. Check your facts there, buddy. Are you sure your not being blinded by optimism?
If all aerials had no lag, then we wouldn't need an l-cancel sure. But now some characters such as Marth benefit from low lag or no lag aerials while others such as Ganondorf are bogged down by inescapable recovery times. How does this make the game more competitive? It seems to me that it makes heavy, laggy characters less capable of dealing with faster ones.
Shields now f*** up most approaches. They are godly now. Look it up.
His claims are actually rather reasonable. He HAS actually played the game you know. It's not like he WANTS it to be bad. He's just looking at the cold, hard facts.
You are refusing to acknowledge the possibility that the changes you are referring to could possibly be for the worst. Yuna is presenting some pretty sound arguments as to why those changes limit our ability to play the game competitively in comparison to Melee. The things that have been changed/removed from Brawl fixed a lot of problems in Melee and allowed us to play the game at a higher level. Now that they are gone, we have nothing to prevent those problems from limiting our ability to play.
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Shut up, really, I've never actually seen a post where you post something positive. The majority of your post are *****ing about every little nuance of the game.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Fantastic point.
Ugghh, its like talking to a brick wall. you guys just say something and say that it is true and that you have given specifics but you haven't.
Brawl is similar to melee, but comparing alot of things in melee to brawl is failed logic, because the games are based in different Physics engines, its like saying jumping is nerfed on earth after coming back from the moon. Just don't do it.
you guys are refusing to acknowledge the possibility that the changes are for the best. you can't exactly hit the ground running in brawl from melee so stop refrencing terms from melee like they should apply in brawl. Everythings there its just different, not better, not worse, just different from melee, this doesn't make things bad at all.
I have not played the game no, but i've watched a butload of videos before making my statements.
and even though yuna played the game doesn't give him credibility. as long as he was playing the game to see how much it wasn't like melee, he failed at analyzing the game.
Brawl is similar to melee, but comparing alot of things in melee to brawl is failed logic, because the games are based in different Physics engines, its like saying jumping is nerfed on earth after coming back from the moon. Just don't do it.
you guys are refusing to acknowledge the possibility that the changes are for the best. you can't exactly hit the ground running in brawl from melee so stop refrencing terms from melee like they should apply in brawl. Everythings there its just different, not better, not worse, just different from melee, this doesn't make things bad at all.
I have not played the game no, but i've watched a butload of videos before making my statements.
and even though yuna played the game doesn't give him credibility. as long as he was playing the game to see how much it wasn't like melee, he failed at analyzing the game.
Luke Groundwalker
Smash Lord
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How so?
Let me reword this, Smash 64 is more balanced than Melee. Better? Neither Smash 64 or Melee are very balanced games when it comes from a standpoint of comparing it to other fighting games, but Melee was just a rushed mess with a lot of good ideas that turned into glitches like wavedashing (equivalent to the infinite dragon punch in the Hokuto no Ken arcade game). Smash 64 wasn't this, it had its flaws, but every fighting game does. Melee has even more flaws so I'd say Smash 64 is a lot better than Melee.
Everyone knows (or should know) that no fighting game is balanced, ever. The only one closest to it was Street Fighter II which is basically why it's considered the greatest fighting game ever.
I could say all of that plus even more about Melee too so what the hell is your point?
I've been playing Smash 64 and Melee for years now and still do, I know exactly what I'm talking about.
Quit trolling, man. There is no rule that states that one must post positively and never complain. If he perceives error in "every little nuance of the game", has the right to b**** about it. You do have the choice of ignoring him you know...
The original SF2 is horrible. There are almost no overheads, the Shotakons ruled the game and you could tick throw out of everything. Oh, they blocked a move? Walk forward and throw them! There's nothing they can do about it.
SF2 is a horribly broken game. And the balance wasn't all that great either. No, SF2 is not considered one of the greatest fighting games ever. It, however, spawned a whole franchise some of whose games are great.
shadydentist
Smash Lord
@koga,
Playing the game does give you more credibility than watching videos, and its perfectly fair to compare the game to its prequel.
Playing the game does give you more credibility than watching videos, and its perfectly fair to compare the game to its prequel.
You said that Smash 64 was balanced. That is laughably false.
And your argument that Smash 64 is better than Melee is not sound. Melee was rushed and look at the super fun and super competitive game that it turned out to be.
They had all the time in the world to work on Smash 64, but it turned out to be Kirby vs Kirby, infinite combos galore, and nothing more. I never said that Melee was balanced either. I'm saying that Smash 64 was rife with design errors that Melee fixed.
Melee is also far more deep, complex, and balanced than the original Smash Bros which makes it a more competitive game, if that's your cup of tea.
I don't see how Smash 64 is inherently superior. You can say you like it more, that's your opinion, but to argue that it is better, I think you'll need some harder facts than "Melee was rushed" and "Melee was unbalanced too".
Where did you get this idea that Brawl is so different from Melee that they shouldn't be compared? Yea they changed A LOT of things, but guess what: THE FUNDAMENTAL MECHANICS ARE THE SAME.
We aren't comparing the moon and the Earth here. It's more like comparing one city on Earth to another. Is that not reasonable?
No one is saying that there are no changes for the better. We are acknowledging, however, that many changes seem to be for the worst. That is fair.
And how does playing the game not give you credibility? Comparing Brawl to Melee is not unreasonable. Nintendo didn't reinvent the wheel here.
Also, sorry for the double post.
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Well, this isn't a board to ***** about every little nuance. It's pointless and serves no constructive purpose.
I'm not the only one with this sentiment and frankly it is kind of hard to ignore it when Yuna bust out five topics a day, so please piss off.
Way to exaggerate. I might occasionally bust out 2-3 topics in one day but then I go a week or two or three or four without starting any threads whatsoever.
Dragonboy2k4
Smash Ace
I have YET to see this.
Your unwarranted ire amuses me. Yuna's posts may be negative, but they do start discussions that are based in facts and reason rather than opinion and emotion like most of the threads in Brawl discussion. That is a welcome contribution I'd say.
Or would you rather list "your favorite FS" or "the first thing your going to do when you get Brawl" in some other thread?
Count the days inbetween the threads I created a few days ago and the threads I created before that.I have YET to see this.
Dragonboy2k4
Smash Ace
I did already,a few were close to 4 days apart,others were indeed over a week.
I may have gotten my quote tags wrong, but...dude, if you're including the various 'patches' after the original SF2 such as SSF2, ST, etc, etc, you're not only speaking what could be considered blasphemy by many a fighting game fan, but something that's completely wrong. Now, I can understand the very first revision of Street Fighter 2, it could have been a mess, but even now SF2 is still one of the most balanced and technically sound fighters released in that it is STILL played in tournaments over a decade after release.
Now, for the actual reasons why I was going to post, at least before I saw that quote up there.
1.) About people calling ATs 'glitches', 'exploits', 'cheats', and other manner of rubbish...sometimes perfection doesn't come from intentional human thought.Some of humanity's best achievements come from accidents. In Street Fighter 2, the grandfather of modern fighters today, the combo system in the game was purported to have begun life as a mere bug in the programming. Now nearly every competent traditional fighter has some sort of comboing system! Wavedashing, which has caused Melee to become the deepest Smash game (Not including Brawl) is perceived as unintentional as well. Comboing is a good thing, and is not called a 'glitch', why should ATs in Smash be labeled as such?
2.) About Brawl's inherent competitiveness...now, I'll be the first to admit I'm a casual player. I'm not awesome by any means, I'm a well-seasoned gamer who doesn't focus on any one game or genre for too long. I can't tell you how many frames it takes for Marth to do his fair or how to do a SHFFL...or even remember the acronym's meaning (Short Hop Fast Fall Aerial, I think?). I am not a competitive player, although I'd like to better my game by playing more opponents and whatnot.
However, isn't it a bit hasty to judge all of this?The game isn't even out in the US yet, and has only had about one month and 3-4 days of life in Japan. Yes, you know what to look for now.Yes, it should be easier to look for with prior experience...but there is something one must understand.
Time tends to provide people with a different perspective on things. To cite a small scale example, I was recently playing through Professor Layton on my DS. I'd get stuck on certain puzzles, give up, and go to sleep.The next day I'd look at the problem, see it from a different angle, and solve the puzzle, all the while wondering to myself, 'How come I didn't see that before?' To look at Brawl now, before the game has even been completely pushed out of the womb, and deem it unworthy of competitive play is a fool's errand, much like playing Ike or Olimar for five minutes and declaring them top tier is (Ike IS made of ****, from what I see, though...haven't seen many good Olimars yet)
In another topic, when pressured about his choice of Metaknight over Bowser, Gimpyfish said something to the effect of, 'You guys are looking at the mountain from the bottom, wondering how high it is. Competitive players at the top can see the peaks of the other mountains, and this one isn't that tall' It's not an exact quote, but it meant that due to prior experience with Melee, he believed that due to a higher understanding of Melee's metagame, certain players could judge the quality of Brawl's metagame...which is why he chose Metaknight, because he saw that Bowser's peak was quite low (Other personal factors in his choice are unknown to me, I only know the argument I saw in that thread)
Sheesh, that's a lot of typing, sorry.To summarize; it's still way too early to make a complete judgement of the Brawl metagame, however overly optimistic that may sound to a lot of you.
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Yes, actually, I'd rather have people discussing a game in a section for people who haven't really played it yet to not have to see topics about how bad Brawl is. All you do when you tell people only your impressions and said conclusion you put out this negative feeling into the community that isn't possible to really test against. All some of these people can do is say, "Wow, I haven't even played it and other people are telling me how ****ty my game will be." Not exactly the kind of thing people really want to hear right now.
Yeah, you see, a lot of people actually play the game before judging it.
And wow, too bad you don't like negative things said about Brawl. Because there's plenty of negative things to say about it. And they're all true. How "bad" Brawl really is is subjective. But there are negative changes that are just cold hard facts.
People need to hear the truth, not what they want to hear. Just how bad own't it be if they all hear only hype about how wonderful the game is only to then be really disappointed? All sides of the story have to be told. Just because you'd rather cling onto the foolish hope Brawl will be perfect won't make its imperfections disappear.
theONEjanitor
Smash Champion
i ****ing hate the people in this board.
ALL THREE GAMES ****ING ROXOR OKAY JESUS
ALL THREE GAMES ****ING ROXOR OKAY JESUS
You must not be very good at Smash64
SuperLink9
Smash Lord
OK.
The better player will always win. It doesn't matter what the game is like, the better player will always win.
Always.
There is always room for improvement. If the gap between players is too small, then you can improve. There is no best play style in the world, it's not like you keep improving and then hit a ceiling. You just keep improving.
Always.
Personally, I think Brawl will be more fun than Melee, and soon I will know. There is no game that is a "better" test of skill than any other, the better player will always win.
So what are we even arguing about?
The better player will always win. It doesn't matter what the game is like, the better player will always win.
Always.
There is always room for improvement. If the gap between players is too small, then you can improve. There is no best play style in the world, it's not like you keep improving and then hit a ceiling. You just keep improving.
Always.
Personally, I think Brawl will be more fun than Melee, and soon I will know. There is no game that is a "better" test of skill than any other, the better player will always win.
So what are we even arguing about?