Ganon Techs, Skills, Frame Data, and Hitboxes

[Shadow Nataku]

i can't find what you updated gleam

o and here is a video of something i posted for ganon's warlock punch 1v1 its pretty useless but for teams it can catch people by surprise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neleuxVx40o

It should be noted if you're able to pull off that entire move in mid-air after being launched off a stage the punch part of the attack has a boost effect that covers some horizontal distance.

 

[echos]

It should be noted if you're able to pull off that entire move in mid-air after being launched off a stage the punch part of the attack has a boost effect that covers some horizontal distance.

murder fist recovery i know it well

 

[Gleam]

i can't find what you updated gleam

o and here is a video of something i posted for ganon's warlock punch 1v1 its pretty useless but for teams it can catch people by surprise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neleuxVx40o

If it's the matchups your looking for, it'll be near the bottom, and an easy way to find a specific character is to use the word finder. (Ctr. F)

I've started putting new techs and skills at the top of the page instead of trying to put them in alphabetical order. So it's easy to see what's new and what's not.

It's good that you know the reverse Murder Punch, and the only reason I'm not using it is because since I've put Sliq's guide in, I feel people can just use that. However...as I've said countless times before I do need some videos for the other ones I have on here.

So...if you want to provide any for those...be great.

 

[Shadow Nataku]

Gleam sorry to bother you, but in the Wario quote from me could you replace every single time I say "<+B" or ">+B" with "B"?

I had a serious brainfart at the time of typing since I was talking about his Bite attack not the Bike attack.

 

[Gleam]

I fixed up the Wario bit for you, hope it's ok now.

 

[Gleam]

The next daily bump for the compact list of Ganon techs.

 

[Gleam]

Bump again, this needs to be stickied...>_>

I've went and added a few more things including the Murder Cypher Gimp fromt he Snake matchup discussion as well a few other things. Hoping to get the Snake Matchup summary up soon too whenever it is finished.

Other than that, anyone else have some input to put in the list?

 

[:034:]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8QZELFbBQQ

<:

 

[Gleam]

Excellent FD...very excellent indeed.
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On a good side note, not couting the the match ups or move discussions, there are 70 different techs and skills on the list. I can see the 100 over the horizon...

 

[SaltyKracka]

Nice video and all, but it's not exactly news, now is it?

 

[hyperstation]

Salty- I think what's new is that the side+B maneuvers are actually being reversed. New to me, anyway, but I'm sure I've done this in game many times without realizing there was an actual reversal happening. I suppose one can run right, initiate a side+b to the right, then immediately reverse it to the left (and visa versa)

Seems useful for a few reasons:

- If you see your opponent roll behind you while you are initiating the flame choke
- If your opponent moves out of range in order to punish your missed flame choke
- Spacing mind games - retreat from edge to set up a fsmash, wiz kick cancel, even utilt, among other reasons.

The input probably has to happen so quickly that it would be of little use as it would probably have to be premeditated.

 

[Swoops]

Yea, the input for sideB reversals has to be really quick, which kinda limits it as a mind game and actual reversal to catch someone in the opposite direction.

 

[Jekyll]

I've been doing this for a while. I think it helps with tech chasing since it allows you to do a murder choke from a run in the opposite direction. Otherwise, you'd have to do an aerial choke to reverse directions or choke out of the dash animation, which would require more timing (IMO).

 

[Gleam]

I've at least found its much easier to do a reversal Aerial Flame Choke than a grounded one. Not sure why, but it's just easier.

Anyways, SHFFAC Bair and RAR SHFFACBair new things I've added, that may or may not be known. They may be the closest things we can get to Melee's SHFFL, so any thoughts?

 

[Swoops]

With the whole SHFF Nair/Fair thing...no lag is reduced at all. Did testing and you get the same lag with any version, fast fall or not. You can still use it if you like but just know that you're getting the full lag and a high amount of risk for such a little reward.

 

[Gleam]

I think the SHFF Fair is good, because its situational no matter what you do on the ground. Here, it allows you to do one with less likely being punished, doesn't mean you can't, and the probability of being punished is perhaps high, but it is lowered I think.
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Also, Swoops, your SHAD (Short Hop Air Dodge) Approach. Did I put in the correct description for it?

 

[Jekyll]

Assuming that you mean me (or not), it's not intended to be used repeatedly. Use it to pass through projectiles or long ranged attacks, or to get into position for an attack(space a d-tilt for example).

While I'm in this thread...

I've been messing around with using the Murder Kick at the edge (horizontally) to travel far out from the stage and edgeguard. You can go a lot farther than double jumping, and you can still make it back to the stage. I haven't been able to work on applying it in a match (because I don't get to play often anymore ), but the next time a Snake tries to recover out of my range and C4 jump...I got somethin' 4 dat azz...

 

[Gleam]

sorry, my bad. I got you mixed up with Swoops for some reason.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Assuming that you mean me (or not), it's not intended to be used repeatedly. Use it to pass through projectiles or long ranged attacks, or to get into position for an attack(space a d-tilt for example).

While I'm in this thread...

I've been messing around with using the Murder Kick at the edge (horizontally) to travel far out from the stage and edgeguard. You can go a lot farther than double jumping, and you can still make it back to the stage. I haven't been able to work on applying it in a match (because I don't get to play often anymore ), but the next time a Snake tries to recover out of my range and C4 jump...I got somethin' 4 dat azz...

Lulz, that reminds me of something that I do. When I knock somebody far out, and it looks like they're going to recover at about ledge height, I just Murder Kick right into them and either go for the kill or just jump back to the stage to set it up again. Works great.

 

[Qindarka]

Sticky for great In-Justice!

 

[Finns7]

Ill use shff Fair for a surprise attack. If I use it alot the other player usually catches on and punishes me because of its lag. When I play with ganon I never run as much as I sh dair, air dodge and bair. Its a way of movement for me, Ill usally hop back and forth and then suddenly just do a fair it catches them off guard. One thing Im starting to do well with ganon is doing the aireal down B right as the other player jumps from hanging on the edge, there is a frame where they are not invulnerable and if you time it right (downb) it should spike them and if you do it enough they'll learn jumping from the ledge is not the best tactic.

 

[Finns7]

Aghh NOo...Guys today was the first time I brawled online seriously since the summer (online seriously lol but you kno wat I mean) any way Im doin my usual ownage as usual with my link against this guys yoshi who was quite good because he was doin that yoshi wavedash **** I prob could of beat him worse with link but I had to get used to lag, well anyway he chooses ganon and is pretty good with him, he was doing AT during the match but I 3 stocked him, well anyway him choosing ganon made me doit, I had to pull out Kimbodorf and show him whats what and I faced his yoshi................................................................................Ownage as usual until that **** grab release How do you not jump out of grab release I apolagize for the noob question but he would grab>I would jump break grab not willingly<grab to spike or attack depending how I DI.

Also after he was done picking yoshi he used ganon and I owned him with my own, I have a replay of my winnings if you want them.

All in all whats the best way out of grab release.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Um, I think not pressing any jump buttons while getting out. Dunno otherwise.

 

[Gleam]

Unfortunately you can't escape Yoshi's release grab, the good thing though is, that chain grab is perhaps the only good thing Yoshi has on Ganondorf. (Not to discredit any good Yoshi players or anything.)

On runoffs (obviously) and purely flat, no platform levels like Final Destination kind of put you at the advatage for Yoshi in using his chaingrab on you. However, get any level with platforms, Battlefield, Norfair, etc and you can litterally stop Yoshi's release grab. This is because, take Battlefield for example, Yoshi's grab releases you high enough so that you can land on the platform. At most, Yoshi could get two grabs on you depending on where he grabs you.

This is why BF is one of my favorite stages to fight Yoshi, it almost completely nullified that one good advantage he as over Ganondorf, and once that's out of the way, IMO, Yoshi is one of the easiest character to beat.

 

[SaltyKracka]

The easiest character to beat is, of course, CF. Oh, and Boozer.

 

[Finns7]

Yeah gleam I thought about it after and I felt stupid for not picking bf or something. I love BF platforms you can thunderstomp a guy if he is on them...................ugh so many possibilities raspberry yellows banna barry blast's of stomping and fairing and dont forget that sparta kick.

 

[deadpoe7]

Silly Yoshi! Stomps are for Ganons!

 

[Gleam]

Yes, BF is great and other than Smashville, it's been pretty much my FD stage since the FD stage has been hacked with awful edges that screw your recovery. Purely flast levels just don't seem to be Ganon's key.
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Jekyll, I'm interested in this Wizard Foot Edgeguarding your talking about.

 

[Mmac]

Actually, Battlefield is the ONLY stage that nullifies it.... if you can actually consider that nullifying it. The Platform I can go straight through with no problem due to how picky it is with Ganondorf. It seems to be he needs to be in the exact center or else he'll go straight through it. Everywhere else the platforms are too high for Ganondorf to be saved from.

Even without the Chaingrab, and the resulting Spike that kills at low percents, You still have to deal with regular Bair use, and is one of the easiest characters to Dair lock. Also there's Eggs to pressure you, and is going to be on you constantly with no good way to defend yourself. Pivot Grabs stop all direct approaches, and can lead to said spike or a Usmash. Finally, you can't use direct Edgeguarding tactics due to his DJAD.

I also doubt your opponent. DR's are nearly impossible to do online in a regular basis. I wouldn't be surprised if he was doing SH Fair's all the time getting it to work. Are you sure it just wasn't stutter step Fsmash's?

But really? What exactly does Ganondorf have other than range in this matchup? He doesn't even surpass Yoshi in early kills, something he excels in! How can it not be in heavily in Yoshi's Favour?

I do play good Ganondorfs also. I used to play Kosk in a regular basis and usually win the majority of the time with Yoshi. If you play against a good Yoshi, I doubt you can stand a chance. Even if you play it safe, if you screw up once, you pretty much have lost the match

 

[Finns7]

Idk man it was wierd, I checked his profile out and he was new to allisbrawl...Its funny He didnt start doin that slide stuff until the final matches with Yoshi vs Ganon idk...I respect all chars I main Link and it pisses me off when they say he sucks and doesnt matchup well with blah blah blah, Same with Ganon too, trust me it was not stutter step Ive actually seen that before. Yoshi and Ganondorf on the right stage is going to be battle if both players kno what there doing.

 

[Jekyll]

^Due to the appearance of the word "online" in your post, it has been ignored...

Ok, not really, but I wouldn't say Yoshi has the upper hand...

Y'know, I'm awful at discussing character matchups. But I've played 2 good yoshis (in person, not online) and won the majority of the matches (actually, I'm pretty even with Scala in friendlies) so as far as this being "heavily in yoshi's favor"...NO.

 

[Anomilus]

I'm glad somebody is bringing up this 2:8 disadvantage nonsense. I always see this - people discuss character matches, everyone else good or bad gets some decent discussion. Then it comes Ganondorf's turn, and it's like "8.2, 9.1, lol ganon". I literally run searches on these topics to find some discussion.

THERE'S ALMOST NEVER ANY SORT OF PROPER DISCUSSION! At most, one little tactic is mentioned, and then everyone else is like "lol ya ganon gets raep'd" and it just ends there.

I wanna see some REAL discussion on both sides and no more of this blatantly biased reasoning from people who likely don't have any real Ganondorf experience themselves.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Actually, Battlefield is the ONLY stage that nullifies it.... if you can actually consider that nullifying it. The Platform I can go straight through with no problem due to how picky it is with Ganondorf. It seems to be he needs to be in the exact center or else he'll go straight through it. Everywhere else the platforms are too high for Ganondorf to be saved from.

Even without the Chaingrab, and the resulting Spike that kills at low percents, You still have to deal with regular Bair use, and is one of the easiest characters to Dair lock. Also there's Eggs to pressure you, and is going to be on you constantly with no good way to defend yourself. Pivot Grabs stop all direct approaches, and can lead to said spike or a Usmash. Finally, you can't use direct Edgeguarding tactics due to his DJAD.

I also doubt your opponent. DR's are nearly impossible to do online in a regular basis. I wouldn't be surprised if he was doing SH Fair's all the time getting it to work. Are you sure it just wasn't stutter step Fsmash's?

But really? What exactly does Ganondorf have other than range in this matchup? He doesn't even surpass Yoshi in early kills, something he excels in! How can it not be in heavily in Yoshi's Favour?

I do play good Ganondorfs also. I used to play Kosk in a regular basis and usually win the majority of the time with Yoshi. If you play against a good Yoshi, I doubt you can stand a chance. Even if you play it safe, if you screw up once, you pretty much have lost the match

We'll discuss Yoshi in good time.

Realistically speaking, I'm expecting a Yoshi advantage once we get to that match-up.

I'm glad somebody is bringing up this 2:8 disadvantage nonsense. I always see this - people discuss character matches, everyone else good or bad gets some decent discussion. Then it comes Ganondorf's turn, and it's like "8.2, 9.1, lol ganon". I literally run searches on these topics to find some discussion.

THERE'S ALMOST NEVER ANY SORT OF PROPER DISCUSSION! At most, one little tactic is mentioned, and then everyone else is like "lol ya ganon gets raep'd" and it just ends there.

I wanna see some REAL discussion on both sides and no more of this blatantly biased reasoning from people who likely don't have any real Ganondorf experience themselves.

True... but Ganondorf does have a lot of horrible match-ups.

They need to be discussed however in order to see.

 

[Anomilus]

I'm not denying at all that Ganondorf has a lot of crap matches. Heck, choosing to main a Ganondorf is practically choosing to play at a disadvantage almost all the time. But while we're dealing with the subject, I want to see real discussion and real consideration behind match-up decisions. Instead, I see the same ol' "Ganon sucks" mentality somehow being accepted in official topics without any real conviction or quality control.

Everyone knows it's an uphill battle for Ganondorf most of the time, but have the decency to not throw reason to the wind. That's my point and my frustration.

 

[Mmac]

^Due to the appearance of the word "online" in your post, it has been ignored...

Ok, not really, but I wouldn't say Yoshi has the upper hand...

Y'know, I'm awful at discussing character matchups. But I've played 2 good yoshis (in person, not online) and won the majority of the matches (actually, I'm pretty even with Scala in friendlies) so as far as this being "heavily in yoshi's favor"...NO.

Scala again?!? *Moans*. Scala is decent, but I wouldn't call him a Good Yoshi to base Matchup Results on. I don't think he does Pivot Grabs, or Grab releases either, which is a huge key in this matchup. I don't think the other one can be justified as top level of play.

Also please stop exploiting Scala's playstyle as a weapon, this is like the Seventh time this has happened!


Anyways, I'm not jumping on the "X Character destroys Ganondorf because he's Ganondorf, Lol!" Bandwagon. Yoshi really DOES Destroy Ganondorf. I have posted nothing but hard facts on why.

 

[Gleam]

bump after a good week or so.

I can understand an advantage for Yoshi, though it would take some good discussion, but I hardly see it as hard. Still, whoever has the advantage can be discussed when the matchup comes up.

 

[Gleam]

Aye, allow for another bump for the Compact List...hoping to get some more added in soon.

 

[Swoops]

It's okay Gleam, I know you lost hope...but a sticky has arrived. Go thank Xsyven

 

[tom2bomb]

Name of move: SSair (Side Special Air)
Type: Tech
Input: short hop then flame choke VERY QUICKLY!
Effect: If you miss for some reason the end animation is lessened

Videos:non

 

[Gleam]

PRAISE XSYVEN!!
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About time it got Stickied. On another note, update soon, since we have Matchup thread, I'll probably take the match ups off here in about a week or so.
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Tom2Bomb, that's actually been discussed. It's more useful as a tech chase, but has far less options on it, then a regular murder choke.