Ganon vs.

[Thomas Tipman]

maximuspita: stage can give advantages to a char but thats not being factored in for the main reason that it doesnt really say who has the advantage it just says one char does better in this level. as for approching with a bair maybe not. ive considered it and i find it more useful while DD than turn to intercept and approching opponent.

overall i think ganon has the advantage on jiggly. uairs help alot with jiggly and i really havent had problems with priority while playing against her (not as bad as peach).

 

[maximuspita]

I agree with you whole-heartedly about the jiggs topic. Though about the stages I brought it up because one posted that jiggs ***** ganon on DL64 so I thought that starting a discussion about stage advantage might be informative. And by the way, what's DD?

On a side note I downloaded some Eddie vs. KishPrime (a jiggs player) vids which everyone should look into. As I mentioned in my post, the ganon makes ample use of the u-air. The best part is when the jiggs missed a rest and I just grinned. XP

 

[Thomas Tipman]

DD is dash dancing basically dashing left, right, left, right, etc. unless anyone else has any opinions on jiggs what about marth, the topic was interupupted by talk of jiggs i beleive so whats up?

 

[Greta_the_Great]

up air spike marth when he comes back onto the stage.... it's the pussiest way to kill someone with ganon

 

[maximuspita]

Thanks for the def. Sorry about rambling on about jiggs.

I guess against marth you have to be conservative and not get too greedy because of ganon's weight and size makes him easily comboed by any decent marth. By conservative I don't mean to play turtle but to be wary of missing an l'cancel or any laggy move.

Egdeguarding well, it's a battle of the best edgeguarder against one of the best spiker in the game. Basically its a toss-up so edgeguard marth before he edgeguards you.

I have a question though, considering that marth has considerably less knock out power in the air, would it be wise to force a battle of attrition in the air once you have high damage?

 

[Greta_the_Great]

NO.

Speed > Power

 

[maximuspita]

Maybe you didn't understand me. When I said attrition, I meant blow for blow; so speed should not be an issue. I just want to enough if:

1) Is it wise to force the attrition in the air where marth has less KO than on the ground?

2) How would one force the marth to fight you in the air?

 

[Greta_the_Great]

There's no reason to fight in the air with marth

 

[Thomas Tipman]

though i havnt played a really good marth i would think marth has the advantage not by much though. the swordsman who i think has more of an advantage is roy. that counter sucks for ganon.

 

[GanondorftheXXVI]

I think marth has the advantage by quite a margin. My Ganon loses to a marth that doesn't even short hop or l-cancel, so it's probably my problem. But I'll still say what I think and reasons:

1.Marth has the range advantage. Apart from everything I said earlier regarding range, here the idea is that Ganon is really not too friendly with anyone who has better range than him. Range is what often what allows ganon to keep pressure and have some form control. Being able to safely approach with an F-air and take it from there (whether it hits or not) gives Ganon time to think. Range is not godly or anything, but in a way it makes up for Ganon's lack of speed.
Now, against Marth, Ganon doesn't have that. You can never rush in. A predictable F-air gets you either a forward smash in the face or a shield grab. Marth has very large reach in his grabs, so it's easier for him to shield grab F-airs. You can't rush in with dash grabs either. So you really need to make a plan by observing his movements and reactions, which is harder than it sounds.

2. Marth can punish you better than you can punish him He can edgeguard you better than you can edgeguard him. That means that one mistake might mean 1 stock life off Ganon. Ganon has awesome edgeguarding abilities, with the spikes and all , but Marth has a very solid recovery (better than Ganon's, overall). Ganon doesn't have, how should I say... such a safe edgeguarding game. When he's off, sometimes you'll kill him and sometimes not.
Another thing. Suppose Marth spams the F-smash everytime you rush at him (which you shouldn't be doing, but just suppose). Unless you have fast reflexes and can block on time whenever he does it (in which case the matchup should be MUCH easier, but still hard), you're going to need to anticipate it and either waveshield or roll behind him, both of which lead to a grab (I'm not sure, I think he may lag enough for you to punish with F-air, but I'm not sure). Once you grab him, you can pummel him a few times, but your throws are not as effective against marth as they are against the others. He can DI and double jump or w/e. Case is, it's hard to chain throws to aerials after mid-percents or something.
So suppose you play the game of roll-dogding behind him to avoid the f-smash. He can eventually catch on and just turn around and grab you. So you may get a couple of throws that don't lead to anything in exchange for eating some f-smashes and grabs. Note that the situation and the mind games are still in his favor.
I have just described the simplest difficult situation. This can give an idea of the problem against marth, not to mention his aerial combos (which are by far more punishing than f-smash) and his relatively safe approaches (dash grabs, N-air, F-air, etc.)

Somehow I feel this is a crappy post...

 

[Thomas Tipman]

LOL its funny how you typed 2 paragraph on how range doesnt mean to much and than you type this, its all good though. yeah that range does do a number and nairs are nasty. though i havnt played a marth 1 on 1 i played a melee with him in it and kinda targeted him just so i could get the fell of a good marth player. i got spanked a bit if i rushed him, its the few matches ive played where is was looking for an opening and had a hard time finding one. marth was definetly combosentric towards my ganon but i dont think he's to crazy with range and both attack/mobility speed on ganon he still suffers alot from fairs, bairs, and uairs. it was tough playing against him but definetly fun. i think he has a medium advantage on ganon but then again i wouldnt be to sure.

 

[Titan44]

Marth doesn't outrange Ganon by that much. If you're having problems with his F-smash, try running forward, wavedashing back just outside of his sword range, and then punishing. Easy and effective against people that get too predictable.

The real problem is that he's way more mobile than you, has HUGE grab range, and is great at edge-guarding. Ganon's pretty good at edge-guarding too though (use D-air to trade hits with his up+B if he tries to sweet-spot the ledge), and the range isn't a huge issue. Speed is just one of those things you're always gonna have to deal with when playing Ganon.

So yeah. It's not a horrible match-up IMO, but Marth is still at the advantage. Still, Ganon fares a lot better than most characters do vs. Marth.....

 

[Thomas Tipman]

i was just playing a roy (i know its not marth) but the range is really something that takes a while to get used to (i dont play marth/roy often). when against them its more of a mind game than most matches with ganon, the main strat you gotta go for is find/make an opening and exploit. marth seem just a little bit tougher than roy but when you get countered by roy HOLY ****!!!!! though during the matches i feel i have more control in the air and dtilts help keep things in my favor.

 

[maximuspita]

I have to agree with Thomas Tipman, although most marths and roy I have fought against are f-smash and counter happy which are easily dispatched with a roll or just grabbing, when I fight a marth that knows how to keep his range for the tipper I have to work a lot harder.

At the beginning of the match I usually just poke with A, d-tilt, and roll around him so I can try a grab (I cant wavedash that good with ganon). With those I can create a safe opportunity to start the shffl'd f-airs. I do this because I always have the mentality that he can put the hurt on me faster than I can on him ( which isn't far from the truth). I guess you have to play safer than usual, watch your mistakes and see if you can follow a pattern (most marths do) .

Against a GOOD Roy, the match can be harder the usual because his moves' properties makes ganon easy to combo, with the same speed and great roll as marth, hitting roy can be just as hard as hitting marth unless you play a good mindgame. Just dont get predictable, you know what happens when you get predictable .

 

[Thomas Tipman]

the only reason i say roy can own ganon better is cause i play roy more often than marth and anytime i play my cusins ganon (or any ganon) i usually shffl dair, dtilt, and chase their DI with nairs till i get him towards the ledge and fair or nair them off. i find it to easy to combo ganon with roy and nairs can combo ganon almost everytime. when i play marth nairs own ganon just as easy with him as roy but roys counter and falling speed is what i think sets them apart.

though what really gets me is how easy this combo works, i find it more damaging than sheiks tilts. i would say marth advantage is medium due to the fact that ganon gets spanked and could be comboed into a KO easily but marth recovery is more vertical than horizontal and ganons bair and ftilt can set him on a path that he wont be able to recover from. though its hard to say who has what in this match up cause most of it is mind games. the tables can turn if some one makes a bad move in this match up seeing how it isnt to hard for these two to combo each other.

as for roy same situation as marth but since he's not as floaty i find him to be faster in the air with shffl nairs or just shff could be used to avoid ganons airs. most ganons should be used to having a fast opponent but an opponent like roy can turn your power into his with his counter, thats the only reason i think he has more of an advantage than marth. ganon does have a better battle in reach since roys sword isnt as long as marth.

obviously these two have the advantage but i havent been able to test myself personally against a good marth/roy to make a good judgment. im leaning towards medium advantage for both of them, roys shorter range helps ganon alot but his counter seals the deal if placed right and marth range and speed speaks for itself but his foatyness helps keep him in the air if hit up and in the air the match feels more at ease for ganon.ive said what i think, what do you all think about this match up and is medium advantage suitible for them to be listed as?

 

[maximuspita]

I concur that Marth has a slight to medium advantage just for the fact that the odds of him punishing ganon's mistake are higher than ganon punishing marth. Missing an l'cancel with a top tier isn't that big of deal but you know you're going to get it if miss an l'cancel with ganon. Marth has also a slight advantage on range but it it isn't game turning if kept in mind.

Roy on the other hand is a wildcard. With physics that work for and against him so I can't give a definite answer if these physics give him an advantage over ganon. Being as light as mewtwo and having a fast falling speed hurts him on recovery; i think his
foward-b doesn' t help him float as much as marth but I'm not sure(could somebody look into this please?).

His counter while godly in damage and knockback, should be the least of your worries. It's mainly mindgame dependant I usually see when a counter is coming (they kinda stay still or rush you too fast or slow expecting an intercept.)but then again I have yet gone against a Roy that compares to masashi.

On ganon, Roy can land his smashes from any shffl'd aerial and his foward-b combos might hurt. The good thing is that Roy's entire game can be broken by CC and ganon's weight can help in the matter.

The last thing I would like to comment is edgeguarding. The fire emblem team has a great edgeguarding game and ganon a horrible recovery so i think you have to give them another point against the dorf.

To summarize i think marth be given slight to medium advantage and roy should be neutral to a maybe slightly advantage because of his weight and falling speed(easier to kill) less range (easier to pressure) and reliable ways to break his combos.

 

[BigDaddyFalcon]

Ganon vs Marth is even I think. While Marth might have a slight edge in the air in terms of priority, ALL Ganon's air moves are extemely lethal. Challenge Marth in the air often. If you can just go blow to blow with him in the air you win.

Both parties can kill the other easily, which makes it an interesting match. If Ganon gets Marth off the stage he can tilt him to death. I also find Marth the easiest character for me to up aerial spike with Ganon. While Ganon is arguably the easiest character in the game to edgeguard effectively against which fits right into Marth's hands. Close quarters Ganon probably has the advantage with that wicked jab (I love the jab as a combo starter, or just simply jab to forward aerial, git'er'dun') but he also is a threat from a distance if you can time and space the forward air effectively. Of course Marth can chain throw Ganon a little at low %'s but the Marth must be smart and try to end it with 2 or 3 throws into a tip.

Ganon used to be main and I considered him a moderate threat. I don't play him much anymore because the "speedy" characters in the game were always too much for me. I did eat a lot of Marths and Peaches alive though. Still can, not as well as I used to though.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

thats what gets me though is how they can own each other, its so odd.

 

[maximuspita]

It's a paradigm O.O, LOL, Anyways yesterday a got together with my friends played some matches and taped them. After getting beat by ganon they got smart and played keep-away and got freaking frustrating for me trying to aproach a char that spammed turnips/bombs/boomerangs etc.

Though something interesting was when we played back the tape, I saw the horror. I missed a lot of l'cancels and the game moved like molasess . Well gotta keep practicing.

Back to the topic at hand. While fighting the peach I came to realize the she just ***** ganon's recovery. The turnips have a slight spiking physics and if I try to sweetspot her d-smash just took me apart. Then I got predictable, so peach used her speedy jump and high priority moves to intercept me. Though she didn't float near me (maybe it takes away mobility or something).

A got the same experience as mentioned before against marth. I killed him as easily as he killed me.

Anyways have we discussed Luigi? I think his wavedash could pose a problem. Any thoughts?

 

[chesterr01]

well imo, for luigi, it's an uphill battle. If the Ganon decided to play defensively against the luigi, there's not much the Luigi can do. Mostly, Ganon can outrange Luigi with his aerials, and he can pretty much control the pace of the battle with fadeaway fairs and such. Luigi can wavedash all he wants, he'll have a hard time landing the attacks properly. If Ganon goes offensive and puts pressure on the Luigi, the green man has to move very fluidly to evade and counter-attack. Sex kick combos will hurt Ganon a lot though.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

luigi doesnt have have to much on ganon has better range, faster in the air, more power, and luigi's recovery gets destroyed by down B spikes. all luigi has is a few good juggles, wavesmashes, and great mobility. i havnt played an awsome luigi but i have played Joe blow, may good rest his soul.:o

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Well, from my own experience with Ganondorfs..:

Peach edgeguarding Ganon > Ganon edgeguarding Peach

Peach's turnips > Ganon's... feet?

Ganon's staying power > Peach's staying power

Peach mindgames > Ganon mindgames

Ganon's priority > Peach's priority

Peach's speed > Ganon's speed

It may not be flat out rapage against Ganon, but I think I've seen to enough to say that a defensive Peach has a clear advantage in this match-up. I want to take on all the Ganondorfs right now and kill them.

 

[DireVulcan]

Originally posted by RyokoYaksa
Well, from my own experience with Ganondorfs..:

Peach edgeguarding Ganon > Ganon edgeguarding Peach

Peach's turnips > Ganon's... feet?

Ganon's staying power > Peach's staying power

Peach mindgames > Ganon mindgames

Ganon's priority > Peach's priority

Peach's speed > Ganon's speed

It may not be flat out rapage against Ganon, but I think I've seen to enough to say that a defensive Peach has a clear advantage in this match-up. I want to take on all the Ganondorfs right now and kill them.

Hehe, i'll help you with that this sundee.

 

[Titan44]

I dunno about staying power and mindgames on that list, but I think priority should be reversed. Downsmash and her dashing attack own my face. The speed thing is a bit iffy too IMO.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

i think mind games are based on player not char, as for speed i think ganon can be more faster in the sense of mobility considering his WD and his WD from a SH goes far n fast. peaches priority is sooo ****ing annoying i think she has more priority. as for turnips i have fun abusing peach with her own items, she does have some what of a projetile but anyone can catch it and use it. but she is definetly a tough match for ganon i would think her priority, edge gaurd, and recovery give her the thumbs up.

 

[maximuspita]

Yes, her priority pisses me off too but i think that to stop her from intercepting you, you have to f-air in FRONT of her to try to corner her. If I try to shff'l a f-air to where she is standing her speed and priority just pwns me. ****, why didn't I think of that yesterday XP.

And Ryoko, why does Peach's mindgames own ganon's?

 

[Thomas Tipman]

i think what ryoko was probably trying to refer to is peach has more options to play mind games cause of float cancels, floating in general, and turnips. she might have more options for mind games but not better mind games since its mostly players that have the minds. sorry if i interperted your post wrong ryoko.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

You haven't met my wavedsashing Peach. She actually has a tiny speed advantage when you compare her WD to Ganon's, and as for distance, it's somewhat irrelevant as a well executed WD is enough to bring Peach just out of range of any of Ganon's attacks. It's not like Ganon's is much better, and his SH WDs don't really hold much to prevent turnips from hitting you. >_> Also, her attack speed is quite a grade higher than Ganondorf's.

As for turnips... catching them is more or less what Peach wants Ganon to do, because it severely limits his options (everyone's actually, except fellow Peaches). Even if Peach gets hit by the turnip, it's just a turnip, not f-air or d-air. Given that turnips are also so easy to see coming, throwing them right back at her is simply Toad bait. Alternatively, she can float and use nair or bair, because those are both strong enough to bat away any turnip save death, and have large enough hit windows to hit Ganon in the same attack if he's close. The people I face generally prefer attack right through the turnips instead of catching them.

As for priority, please... it's Ganon. He both overpowers and outranges Peach by a long shot. If you're exceptionally good at spacing yourself and your ranged attacks, Peach will have a tough time laying on a good offense without the aid of turnips. Factor in the turnips and Peach sneaky approaches though, and the gap in priority quickly closes.

Staying power is also pretty obvious. Ganondorf is much heavier and harder to KO compared to Peach, and has a lot more KO power compared to Peach. Peach's advantages here are her edge guarding abilities against Ganon, Ganon's lack of edge guarding ability vs. Peach, and Peach's recovery in general.

The mind games... Peach probably has the most diverse shield game in SSBM. WD, SH aerials, turnip throws, dodges, shield-JC, etc. are all bound to leave you guessing as to what she'll do when you try to attack her. Direct encounters themselves can be lacking because of the onslaught of turnips and Peach's ability to run away from a guy like Ganon.
>As for Peach's offensive mindgames, they are more varied than Ganon's can ever hope to be. The turnips, slap setups, float variations, the general keep-away game, and fear of dsmash will limit Ganon's "safe" options. Dire and I will be taped to the best of our ability.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

peaches turnip slap set up isnt all so good, a friend of mine uses that set up alot and the easiest way around that is airdodge catch it. about peach WDing its always beneficial, i never thought that a peach player shouldnt keep that in mind but when you say "...as for distance, it's somewhat irrelevant as a well executed WD is enough to bring Peach just out of range of any of Ganon's attacks. " i disagree, distance makes a difference and can benefit ganon since he can WD out of range of an attack and be able to attack from a distance that his opponent (peach in this case) cant touch without closing in or throwing a turnip. in peaches defense since she doesnt have great range her WD suits her.

priority, ganon probably has it but **** that up smash hurts so much.

Peach probably has the most diverse shield game in SSBM. WD, SH aerials, turnip throws, dodges, shield-JC, etc. ganon has the same advantages - floating, float cancels, and sheild-JC. peaches turnip game can be used to insure an opponent from using an air without warning but it also puts peach in the same position when she's holding them.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

'peaches turnip game can be used to insure an opponent from using an air without warning but it also puts peach in the same position when she's holding them.'

Peach can still use aerials while holding a turnip (floating attacks), unlike any other character

 

[Thomas Tipman]

very true, dont know why that slipped my mind. though i do think she has the advantage on ganon but not much its her float and edge gaurding that leads me to believe so.

 

[VilNess]

you know ganon can actually piss off a peach who threw a turnip at ganon. Ganon catches the turnip and does an upB!
great grab range and works if not spammed.

 

[Thomas Tipman]

i remeber catching my friend almost everytime during a match we had, he'd jump and throw a turnip at me and id jump catch, jump again(to aviod the fair approching) and drop the turnip and bair him. i caught him like 3-4 times in that match afterwards he wasnt trying to pull that turnip fair combo till a few matches later.:D

 

[Young Ic3]

Originally posted by Thomas Tipman
SNIP

Ok um you need to correct that jiggly (technically) > gannon...

notice how he's 1 of the easiest to rest on.

but yea i like your theory tho.

Kepp it up

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Good lord. Peach's slap = her standing A. You know, where she actually physically slaps the opponent. >_< There are many slap variations that can throw off the opponent. Turnip to f-air isn't so hot against anyone who's dealt with Peach before.

Peach vs. Ganon is essentially a clash of strategies... Peach thrives on the long and healthy match, while Ganondorf wants to lay the smackdown on his opponent as soon as possible before they have the chane to adjust. The thing is though, is that Peach's strategy is easier to keep up than Ganon's when they're facing each other. Dumb Peaches will be overpowered by Ganondorf easily, but the good ones...

 

[Thomas Tipman]

but the good ones... would what? about the turip to fair my friend has gotton better since i was just giving an example of how they can be used against her.

IC3: ive been hearing people say that a bit latley so im gonna see if i could get some ganon vs jiggs vids and play some great jiggs so i could find out why im hearing so much about jiggs. if this hype is just about the WOP dtilts usually take care of the job for me.

 

[maximuspita]

So basically the battle between Peach and Ganon is a battle of the odds, If peach streches the match time and takes her time then she wins but if ganon rushes and keeps peach from doing anything then its ganon's match? I see why you keep insisting on her advantage since her keepaway game is very good and the chances of ganon flubbing a crucial move are higher than peach messing something up and being punished for it.

I guess the underlying problem of ganon is how punishable if he messes up. If the other chars drag the match or messes up the player's rhythm then the possibilities of you messing up get high very fast. Getting used to ganon's laggy jump should be easy and workable but if the other player gets to your mind it means the end for ganon.

I guess many will post: "Of course, maximuspita, that's so freaking obvious;" but the point that im trying to get across is that maybe ganon is one of the easier characters to kill once your mindgames start to fail while the other characters can fall back to other options in order to gain their composure.

Again, jiggs does not own ganon. His rest does not win him the match and missing the rest means death, and jiggs does not dare to use his rest unless ganon is using his up-b. His pound can be shield grabbed ... ganon can space and outrange jiggs ... jiggs can be killed at low % easily by any of ganon's aerials ... etc If you want visual evidence watch eddie vs kish.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

The good Peaches will give Ganondorf one **** of a time.

Trying to use the turnips against Peach is almost never safe or even that effective when it is safe, because of your limited options when holding the turnip. Then there's when you actually throw the turnip, where Peach's aerials can easily eat through them.

As for Jiggly, there's also the fact that almost any time you block Jiggly's Pound, an usmash is guaranteed because the lag on Pound is that bad if it's blocked. You should try it sometime.

 

[maximuspita]

Thanks for the tip, mm- mmm up-smash=sweetness.

I think i've tried it before, but when I shield something I just automatically grab so I 've must have forgotten. Anyways it seems that ganondorf doesn't has much problems against characters without projectiles , yet his worst matchups are those against chars with great projectiles: Falco, Link, Sheik, Samus, Peach (suppossedly). If so, then dealing against a pill-popping doc should provide some challenge. Any thoughts on the doc and dealing with the projectiles?

 

[VilNess]

to my understanding biggest problem when cathing turnips is that you can´t grab...
well Ganon can with his upB...
Because I don´t play Peach I´d like a little enlightement here.
What can peach do when ganon grabs a turnip and he knows how to upB correctly.
Airdodge? sidestep? space attacks? and so on...