Ganondorf: Patch 1.1.4 Changes

[Ray_Kalm]

Tomorrow afternoon from this post is yet another balance patch, so speculate away!

I'll update once we get confirmed information. ( Vermanubis you can go ahead and close the previous balance thread).

Personally, I still have some hope for a faster startup on Ganon's jab. That's all I really desire for at least a somewhat viable Ganon.

Changes so far: weight increase from 112>113

 

[Deotay]

We're probably getting super armor on aerial Warlock Punch.

But yeah, a faster jab would be a godsend.

 

[Bleak Power]

This may be a bit too much, and more akin to a character revamp, but I would love it if Ganon just received a triple jump.

It would increase his air time, buffing his off-stage game by allowing him to go deeper for edge guarding and to take his time to get around gimp attempts. It would be a better option than increasing his air jump height, since the low height is useful for fishing for hits in neutral, besides being able to reset his downward momentum twice. Plus, it would give his heavy weight more meaning considering he is supposed to survive longer than other characters, but is one of the few who can't properly recover from a down smash.

However, it also has the potential to make ganoncides too scary, so I can see how this would be too good.

 

[Vermanubis]

After thinking a lot about it, I don't think a quicker jab would do Ganon the kinds of favors he needs most. I don't think a bigger grab range would do it either. What I'd really want is a way to minimize the vast window of options people have after aerial choke. Making aerial choke untechable is nice, but it's still incredibly easy to escape. I think that's a reasonable middle ground as at least one way to secure KOs -- maybe just a reduction in cooldown.

I don't necessarily want direct buffs, rather, just things to minimize how much Ganon gets cheated and punished for making good reads (things randomly not connecting fully, etc.)

I remember Scarlet Jile making an excellent point once about Sakurai wanting to balance competitive and casual, and that Ganon needs a buff whose benefits require a reasonable degree of craft to reap. I think bigger rewards off of aerial choke would meet that nicely.

Maybe more shieldstun on FTilt too, so it can't be punished so easily on shield. It's one of Ganon's very few ways to punish rolls, and I feel genuinely cheated when I make a good read and get punished on a non-PS shield for it.

 

[Lozjam]

While hopes are good. I don't expect much. Sakurai seems to want Ganondorf to not be competitively viable for whatever reason....

Oh well. It will just make winning much more satisfying.
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

As for what I would actually want.
A huge flaw in Ganondorf is that while Ganondorf has a lot of power, the moves that hole up that power aren't really viable. So giving Dtilt, Uair, Jab, Usmash, and Bair more knockback would seriously help his cause.

I also want all of the teching nonsense out of Ganondorf's side b. It is ridiculous that you can get punished by some characters just because you landed the move.

Jab would be nice to be sped up.

More SA frames on his dash attack would really help him as well against projectile users.

It just pains me so much that now, more characters are both stronger, faster, and more versatile than Ganondorf. Especially with Cloud in play. I love our glorious King. But he is completely useless compared to other fighters of similar type.

 

[jmanup85]

Vermanubis ily but lets just add the jab and grab on top of your stuff to please old jman

 

[BlackCore8]

Ganondorf has been getting buffs the latest patches. I bet sakurai will improve something. A faster jab will be perfect.

 

[Theosmeo]

After thinking a lot about it, I don't think a quicker jab would do Ganon the kinds of favors he needs most. I don't think a bigger grab range would do it either. What I'd really want is a way to minimize the vast window of options people have after aerial choke. Making aerial choke untechable is nice, but it's still incredibly easy to escape. I think that's a reasonable middle ground as at least one way to secure KOs -- maybe just a reduction in cooldown.

I don't necessarily want direct buffs, rather, just things to minimize how much Ganon gets cheated and punished for making good reads (things randomly not connecting fully, etc.)

I remember Scarlet Jile making an excellent point once about Sakurai wanting to balance competitive and casual, and that Ganon needs a buff whose benefits require a reasonable degree of craft to reap. I think bigger rewards off of aerial choke would meet that nicely.

Maybe more shieldstun on FTilt too, so it can't be punished so easily on shield. It's one of Ganon's very few ways to punish rolls, and I feel genuinely cheated when I make a good read and get punished on a non-PS shield for it.

So aerudo burying people? That'd be pretty cool. Depending on how high up you land it it could take longer. Wizkick cancel > aerudo could equal +10 frames for tilts and avoiding a ZSS combo at the top of the screen could give you a warlock punch

 

[randomguy1235]

For the love of the Dark Lord, buff wiz kick! Why does it do less damage/knockback than falcon kick but have more endlag?

 

[verbatim]

I remember Scarlet Jile making an excellent point once about Sakurai wanting to balance competitive and casual, and that Ganon needs a buff whose benefits require a reasonable degree of craft to reap. I think bigger rewards off of aerial choke would meet that nicely.

I've thought about this for a while and I think I've found a modest middle ground.

• Jab comes out on frame 8 right now. Moving it down to 6 or 5 would make it a better tool for spacing without making it spammable online.

• KBG boost to uthrow. The way the dev team has been buffing low tier characters without making them easy to spam online has been by giving them better reward out of a grab. This is especially true for Ganondorf since the biggest distinction (IMO) between competitive Ganondorf's and For Glory one's is how often they can get grabs. IMO uthrow should be killing at like 120-130% w/out rage and as low as 100 w/.

• BKB boost to fthrow. I don't think I was the first one to advocate for it but I LOVE this idea. Wario and the Pit's are three characters with a very interesting property. They have high base knockback on their f-throws and low knockback growth, so, while they can't kill across stage with fthrow even at rediculously high percents, they can shieldgrab getup attacks and fthrow kill at 100% if they have rage. My idea for Ganondorf is a little more complex. With not insane but a decent buff to Ganondorf's fthrow base knockback, it creates a frame trap similar to Sheik's 50/50 if you shieldgrab someone at the ledge. If they di in down throw to fair kills, if they di out fthrow kills. What makes this better is that whereas Sheik's 50/50 just stops working if you mis-guess enough times, the slight but still decent growth on fthrow means that eventually you can just shieldgrab fthrow for a guaranteed kill.

 

[Theosmeo]

it creates a frame trap similar to Sheik's 50/50 if you shieldgrab someone at the ledge. If they di in down throw to fair kills, if they di out fthrow kills.

Well you may as well go for Fair every time right? Hardly a 50-50, but I'd be happy with that, been practicing my tomahawking recently anyways

EDIT: Oh sorry I goofed I thought you meant Fthrow > Fair, not Dthrow Fair. I just thought that was some wacky DI

 

[HeavyLobster]

After thinking a lot about it, I don't think a quicker jab would do Ganon the kinds of favors he needs most. I don't think a bigger grab range would do it either. What I'd really want is a way to minimize the vast window of options people have after aerial choke. Making aerial choke untechable is nice, but it's still incredibly easy to escape. I think that's a reasonable middle ground as at least one way to secure KOs -- maybe just a reduction in cooldown.

I don't necessarily want direct buffs, rather, just things to minimize how much Ganon gets cheated and punished for making good reads (things randomly not connecting fully, etc.)

I remember Scarlet Jile making an excellent point once about Sakurai wanting to balance competitive and casual, and that Ganon needs a buff whose benefits require a reasonable degree of craft to reap. I think bigger rewards off of aerial choke would meet that nicely.

Maybe more shieldstun on FTilt too, so it can't be punished so easily on shield. It's one of Ganon's very few ways to punish rolls, and I feel genuinely cheated when I make a good read and get punished on a non-PS shield for it.

Just about all of Ganondorf's grounded moves save Usmash could do with small endlag reductions actually. Wizkick ought to be a kill move since he's got nothing else to punish rolling away. Falcon Bthrow or something would be a neat niche buff to allow Dorf to kill after landing Aerial Choke from off the ledge after shielding a getup attack. Nair 1 being able to start combos or setup for kills effectively would be nice if they want to revamp that again.

 

[Top Boss]

Idk anymore with Ganondorf. He's prob gonna get another nair change.... but less landing lag and a good bit of disjoint on some of his ranged moves could probably accomplish something. I'd say he needs better mobility most of all, but autocancel down air out of a short hop would be nice.

 

[LifeMushroom]

-Aerial Warlock Punch more damage and super armor
-Aerial Reverse Warlock Punch more damage and super armor
-Up tilt knockback increased
-New n-air: first hit is stronger
-Flame Choke to d-tilt is a true combo on everyone

 

[Abbey Street]

I can get behind a faster jab. However the one change I'm secretly hoping for is a little bit extra air speed. It would do Ganon a bit of justice by improving his recovery and aerial spacing.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I also feel pretty strongly about his B-moves being a liability. As a general rule of thumb, if a move requires a hard read to be worth using, it's probably not great.

But if it requires a hard read and the reward is still potentially nothing (flame choke on half the cast, wizkick below a million percent), it just plain needs reworked.

Making wizkick plow through shields and projectiles would be so, so satisfying. And getting more options out of choke would be a godsend. Alas, I don't have high hopes. The changes so far have felt arbitrary and underwhelming.

 

[Z1GMA]

Oh, god, please don't focus on Nair this time, Sakurai.

I, too, want a slightly faster jab. Both in start-up and cooldown. Remove 2 frames in both ends.

I also would like faster initial Walking Speed/acceleration. It'd really help when you PS > walk > PS > walk.
It's a bit pathetic as it is now.

Improve his grabrange a tad.

And why not buff Uair's damage while we're at it.
Each hitbox doing 1% more damage than before.
13/12/8/6 > 14/13/9/7

*edit:
Give Ganon a passive ability, like some other characters have - Dark Aura: Being close to Ganon hurts you by 0,8% damage per second.

 

[Theosmeo]

Oh, god, please don't focus on Nair this time, Sakurai.

I, too, want a slightly faster jab. Both in start-up and cooldown. Remove 2 frames in both ends.

I also would like faster initial Walking Speed/acceleration. It'd really help when you PS > walk > PS > walk.
It's a bit pathetic as it is now.

Improve his grabrange a tad.

And why not buff Uair's damage while we're at it.
Each hitbox doing 1% more damage than before.
13/12/8/6 > 14/13/9/7

*edit:
Give Ganon a passive ability, like some other characters have - Dark Aura: Being close to Ganon hurts you by 0,8% damage per second.

That'd actually be pretty cool not gunna lie. It'd make Falcon bearable at least. I'd like super armor while walking, in Twilight princess he just walks at you and bombs and arrows just bounce off him, looks pretty cool.

 

[Opana]

I'd like a faster air speed more than anything, mainly for recovery purposes but I think it'd make dthrow combos more effect too. Aside from that I'd really like hin to get more reward off his grab, maybe make uthrow and bthrow able to kill at reasonable percents rather than go the dk and bowser route.

Another interesting buff I've been thinking of, if he can't get a grab range buff then decrease the start up on dark dive to around the same frames as his standard grab. This would give him a better oos option, benefit his recovery, and make dair to dd uppercut more reliable.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I'd like a faster air speed more than anything, mainly for recovery purposes but I think it'd make dthrow combos more effect too. Aside from that I'd really like hin to get more reward off his grab, maybe make uthrow and bthrow able to kill at reasonable percents rather than go the dk and bowser route.

Another interesting buff I've been thinking of, if he can't get a grab range buff then decrease the start up on dark dive to around the same frames as his standard grab. This would give him a better oos option, benefit his recovery, and make dair to dd uppercut more reliable.

Don't think it's likely for Dark Dive to wind up coming out frame 7 like his default grab, but coming out like frame 11 or 12 would be handy considering it's got good range, about as much as jab, and does as much damage as Fthrow. I'd like for it to also have more BKB and let you act out of it 10-15 frames sooner both to get rid of Rockcrocks and so you don't get put in an unfavorable position for using it at low %s(if this made it kill a bit better that would also be nice). I do think this kind of thing would especially be nice since it's a bit subtler than some of the other buffs we could get, but would also be a good OOS option. It would help slightly in every aspect of the game.

 

[Bleak Power]

Best confirmed buff: more faces to punch.

 

[WwwWario]

I won't be able to be on until tomorrow night. So, since this is probably the last patch for Smash 4, this could be our last hope. So I'm crossing my fingers that buffs have happened when I get back to Smashboards tomorrow night.

Personally hoping a faster jab, an actual kill throw, better grab range, and super armor on areal Warlock just to make disrespecting easier.

 

[Kernel]

First time I've played in awhile, but here's what I noticed. Both up air and back air now autocancel out of a short hop. Wizard foot seems faster, but this could be a placebo.

 

[ZenJestr]

I think it's placebo, although I could compare it with the 1.1.3 Wizkick on my unupdated 3DS.

but yes Bair and Uair now autocancel and I could not be happier. I haven't noticed anything else. my potential placebo is Utilt coming out a bit faster but like I just said it could be placebo...

EDIT: I forgot those two aerials were always cancelable, I guess I'm just trying to find changes where there are none (lmao how could I forget Bair autocancels). I can't believe my hiatus since the year 1 Brawl days was broken on a noob post lmao

 

[Didier337]

Ganon's B-throw seems to have more knock back. Being able to kill at 160% near ledge but not sure

 

[HeavyLobster]

Since when couldn't Bair and Uair AC after a shorthop? Do you even play Ganon? Also Bthrow probably could kill around those %s. We get nothing outside of maybe landing lag reductions, and not more than like 1-2 frames if we get anything.

 

[King9999]

B-air and u-air could always autocancel...

B-throw is the same as always.

 

[Theosmeo]

Dang yeah I've noticed nothing... sigh

 

[Xinc]

http://youtu.be/Tyl4kQOB7MY

On mobile, so can't exactly link, but I have reason to believe up b uppercut saw a buff.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Not sure if it always hit this far but Warlock Thrust apparently can hit a Bowser Pivot Grab away. I tested this on 3ds. Clarify for me please.

 

[Theosmeo]

http://youtu.be/Tyl4kQOB7MY

On mobile, so can't exactly link, but I have reason to believe up b uppercut saw a buff.

Well that's cool, no reliable way to land it but if a Dair/Usmash pops someone up at 60-80 ill go for it

 

[Didier337]

What a shame, doesnt seem like Ganon got anything significant. It'll be greedy of me to ask for more patches for how much they've already done for the game but hopefully they'll focus on balances in the future

 

[Gold_TSG]

I'm disappointed, honestly.

 

[Z1GMA]

http://youtu.be/Tyl4kQOB7MY

On mobile, so can't exactly link, but I have reason to believe up b uppercut saw a buff.

I tried it out. It seems unchanged.
Maybe you hit Fox during the first frame of him charging a smash combined with rage?

 

[adom4]

Any landing lag changes?

 

[Theosmeo]

Any landing lag changes?

Nothing man.....




I'm sad

 

[Dark Phazon]

So what are the changes?

 

[Shmeckie]

I feel spoiled. We've gotten a buff in every patch. A new patch with no new Ganon buffs just feels wrong, man...!

 

[ZenJestr]

Still mad at myself for forgetting uair and bair autocancel lol. If there are any changes i think it's a Dark Dive uppercut buff and even then idk. Was hoping for at least a kill throw or buff to grounded Wizkick (or super armor on jab and fair and the return of thunderstorming and dark dive being a viable kill option or super good gimping option or melee marth grab range or other totally realistic changes)

 

[Scarlet Jile]

1.1.5 boys... the dream must live on.