Ganondorf Stage Match-up Chart

[Vermanubis]

I'd like to say that this is a very nice suggestion and I bet that, with a few details ironed out, this will be a great resource when considering matchups.

I would like to input that Final Destination is a GREAT stage when fighting Game and Watch. Without any platforms, G&W is forced to fight you using horizontal spacing, and with Ganon's good range on his aerials plus the ability to stuff his aerials with F-tilt, the spacing battle will favor Ganon a good portion of the time. Game and Watch is most dangerous when he's inside, but as long as the Ganon player can keep mind of his spacing, he can neutralize some of Game and Watch's greatest assets.

Thanks, Clai.

And yeah, FD is the best neutral against G&W as far as I'm concerned. I need to reconsider if it should stay yellow or go dark green, since both characters don't lose out, but they don't really gain anything either.

 

[Sovereign]

Thanks, Clai.

And yeah, FD is the best neutral against G&W as far as I'm concerned. I need to reconsider if it should stay yellow or go dark green, since both characters don't lose out, but they don't really gain anything either.

Well, GnW loses out on the fact that on some other stages he could kill Ganon much easier. Vertically Ganon kills GnW at about 90%, actually a little less.

 

[Vermanubis]

Well, GnW loses out on the fact that on some other stages he could kill Ganon much easier. Vertically Ganon kills GnW at about 90%, actually a little less.

Well, that's a buff that he loses; not necessarily an obstruction of an inherent ability.

Because, while FD is the best neutral (I think it's tied with PS1), it still gives G&W a lot of leeway to mess around. Ganon doesn't get ***** by the platforms, but on FD, he still has an immensely tough time approaching. These are the reasons I'm unsure it should be changed from its current color. Though, I'm open to the idea of it climbing higher, but we need to discuss how FD hurts or helps Ganon/G&W on a basic level. In other words, if Ganon or G&W have anything about them that make FD benefit them beyond losing out on prospective buffs other stages would offer.

 

[Swoops]

I'm beginning to like Brinstar more and more. Not so much for the lavaciding though.

It tends to be just small of a stage to where ganon can space, but they can do much in terms of running away and playing extremely defensively. The platform set up seems to help Ganon extremely in terms of pressuring them from below. Plus, since the lava comes every so often, you'll see your opponent a lot more on the platforms then you normally would on say, battlefield. The uneven (and inconsistently to boot) is pretty annoying. But if you condition yourself to it, in can work in your favor every so often. Gerudo happens to be one of those instances, allowing for more creative follow ups, and more leeway for your followups a lot of the time. On the other hand, the part where the stage breaks away can cause problems if you're in it or on the right side of it (it stops, your horizontal movement.) Also, super lengthy hitboxes for stomp and f-smash are super fun. In the end, I think it's a pretty good CP for him, it just comes down to familiarizing yourself with the stage and knowing who to pick it against.

I don't know about anyone else, but I actually reeeally like lylat against a couple people. Namely Ike and Yoshi. Loads of platforms help out with yoshi's chaingrab, plus, it makes it increasingly harder for him to egg camp on the ledge. A lot of time, it can snuff yoshi's recovery just as hard as it does ganon's. And as always for ganon, platforms are delicious. Me saying ike would probably surprise a lot of people. He does do just as well with platforms as ganon does, maybe even better, and I was hesitant the first couple times picking it against him. But, the more I use it, the more I'm liking it. Again, ike's recovery gets just as snuffed, hell maybe even more. As for the platforms... On lylat, there are so many platforms being decently low, that it seems to screw up f-air spacing for ike to a pretty decent degree. I've definitely had instances of an ike double jumping a f-air right into a platform to loads of punishment. It might not be the best CP, but against Ike and yoshi I feel it's pretty decent.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Okay, so how exactly does Ganon benefit on BF against Diddy and Wario more so then them?

Explain this to me.

 

[Swoops]

Okay, so how exactly does Ganon benefit on BF against Diddy and Wario more so then them?

Explain this to me.

I think the OP was thinking more along the lines of having platforms to get around bananas, and it being better than FD in comparison. But I really wouldn't go so far as to put it as an advantage for Ganon against either of them. People seem to automatically think BF is godsend for Ganon. It's alright. It's pretty good for it's platforms and small stage size, so it often helps even out the match for Ganondorf, it doesn't put the fight in his favor as much as some people think. To be honest, BF for wario and diddy should be put to even, and FD for wario should be raised.

 

[Vermanubis]

I think the OP was thinking more along the lines of having platforms to get around bananas, and it being better than FD in comparison. But I really wouldn't go so far as to put it as an advantage for Ganon against either of them. People seem to automatically think BF is godsend for Ganon. It's alright. It's pretty good for it's platforms and small stage size, so it often helps even out the match for Ganondorf, it doesn't put the fight in his favor as much as some people think. To be honest, BF for wario and diddy should be put to even, and FD for wario should be raised.

Aye. As far as neutrals go, BF is excellent against Diddy because he loses a lot of stage control, and Ganon can more easily grab bananas for choke > glidetoss set-ups. Wario just because he can't camp nearly as easily. Still easily, but not as bad as FD. It was generally agreed though that YI is best against him, because the height of the platform almost completely destroys some of his approaches.

The primary reason it is bright green against Diddy is because, as far as I can tell, out of the stages Ganon has to choose from, it's the one that would benefit him the most. A dark green stage can, in theory, be better than a bright green, however, the bright green signifies that it is either rapist territory for Ganon, or the best he's got to work with.

Wario I can agree with it being even.

 

[Breezy]

...Norfair... is such a **** Ganon stage. He doesn't get camped

Wario says hi.

 

[Vermanubis]

Wario says hi.

Which is why he's red on the chart. :U

 

[Swoops]

It might be the one that benefits Ganon the most, but that doesn't mean that it's automatically an advantage. The definition of the green color, is that ganondorf's advantages outweigh diddy's. Ganondorf does better on battlefield against diddy than FD, but that's just because of his much more severe disadvantage. You can't base his advantage on how much the match up stinks on other stages.

I don't see how wario camping on FD is such a big problem. I don't see anything that Wario has that can completely shut down Ganon. Plus, on FD there is nothing to get in the way of complete **** when Ganondorf gets a grab.

 

[Vermanubis]

It might be the one that benefits Ganon the most, but that doesn't mean that it's automatically an advantage. The definition of the green color, is that ganondorf's advantages outweigh diddy's. Ganondorf does better on battlefield against diddy than FD, but that's just because of his much more severe disadvantage. You can't base his advantage on how much the match up stinks on other stages.

I don't see how wario camping on FD is such a big problem. I don't see anything that Wario has that can completely shut down Ganon. Plus, on FD there is nothing to get in the way of complete **** when Ganondorf gets a grab.

It may seem like that at first, but my basis for the green rating on BF wasn't based from how much better it is than FD. Diddy possesses numerous inherent advantages over Ganon anywhere. But at BF, Diddy loses out on his banana game to a degree, whereas Ganon gains the ability to make full use of the platforms to avoid bananas and use opportunities to grab them.

As for Wario at FD, Wario doesn't do anything to totally shut Ganon down anywhere really, besides Brinstar. But at FD, Ganon will never, ever land a hit on Wario. Wario has reign of the skies, so to speak. On more confined stages where he risks a lot by going up too high, Ganon can work around some otherwise unsightly obstacles, such as being camped, like at FD. As for the grab-release, that is true, but let's weigh the reality of getting a grab on a campy Wario, especially at FD.

 

[Swoops]

As for Wario at FD, Wario doesn't do anything to totally shut Ganon down anywhere really, besides Brinstar. But at FD, Ganon will never, ever land a hit on Wario. Wario has reign of the skies, so to speak. On more confined stages where he risks a lot by going up too high, Ganon can work around some otherwise unsightly obstacles, such as being camped, like at FD. As for the grab-release, that is true, but let's weigh the reality of getting a grab on a campy Wario, especially at FD.

You are severely overestimating Wario's camping game, and completely underestimating Ganondorf's aerials. Ganondorf will never land a hit on Wario? I know that you know you were exaggerating, but I don't think you know how much you are exaggerating. Wario is reign of the skies is mainly due to his fantastic maneuverability. This is why it can sometimes be a difficult battle for Ganondorf sometimes in the air. But the fact is that u-air cuts through Wario's aerials like butter. If Wario even slightly moves his spacing an iota into the wrong position, he eats an u-air. Considering that Wario likes to be in the skies a lot, this helps out Ganondorf more than you think. In fact, I actually like playing spacing war with wario. Full hopped u-airs and other aerials can contend easily with wario's spacing game.

Yes, lets weigh the reality of getting a grab off on a campy wario. Is it a great chance? No. Is there no chance? Of course not. Most likely, a wario is going to be looking out for grabs. But saying that the Wario isn't ever going to get grabbed is as ridiculous as the phrase "don't get grabbed." There's often going to be a grab at some point. And when Ganondorf gets a grab, he either gets near 30% or a f*cking stock easy. To me, having nothing in the way of that is pretty juicy.

Check this video out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up1NUOVPJcw

Now, the Wario in this video is not great. i am well aware of that. I am also well aware that he made many mistakes (many people do in real life matches.) But I'm simply trying to illustrate that Ganondorf's aerials can contend with Wario pretty decently. But notice the difference between sv and fd. On sv, he actually was saved a couple times. If he were on FD, his stock would've been gone

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Er... I'm inclined to disagree with Ganon beating Samus on Brinstar. Imo it's even. That's one of Samuses best stages also, and Bloodynite and I go about even there every time.

EDIT: Post 3000

 

[Vermanubis]

You are severely overestimating Wario's camping game, and completely underestimating Ganondorf's aerials. Ganondorf will never land a hit on Wario? I know that you know you were exaggerating, but I don't think you know how much you are exaggerating. Wario is reign of the skies is mainly due to his fantastic maneuverability. This is why it can sometimes be a difficult battle for Ganondorf sometimes in the air. But the fact is that u-air cuts through Wario's aerials like butter. If Wario even slightly moves his spacing an iota into the wrong position, he eats an u-air. Considering that Wario likes to be in the skies a lot, this helps out Ganondorf more than you think. In fact, I actually like playing spacing war with wario. Full hopped u-airs and other aerials can contend easily with wario's spacing game.


I've faced a number of Warios in my day. Really, really good ones. Defensive Wario and campy Wario are unequivocal.

Aside from that, most of that what you said is true, however, if the Wario is aiming to win, he won't ever go close to Ganon unless to punish. The reason that Wario in that video lost like he did is not because the Ganon played inadequately, rather, the Wario failed to punish almost everything he did; and he did a lot of things that could've easily been punished.

Ganon's aerials contend with Wario's easily, yes. But the point is not whether or not his aerials can overpower Wario's, but rather, if he can ever get near the Wario before he's dair'd. If a Wario gets hit with an aerial that isn't uair or nair while airborne, he's a poor Wario. It's great that Wario will get hit by uair, but the problem lies in several places, but most notably is if the Wario is patient and doesn't rush in, you'll get a uair in off of chance occasionally. But then the problem arises that uair stales. None of Ganon's ground attacks will hit Wario unless he's overly aggressive. It's a lot like with Sonic. It's almost impossible to reach Sonic unless he comes to you. When he spindashes, you can easily get him with uair, but uair can only take you so far.


Yes, lets weigh the reality of getting a grab off on a campy wario. Is it a great chance? No. Is there no chance? Of course not. Most likely, a wario is going to be looking out for grabs. But saying that the Wario isn't ever going to get grabbed is as ridiculous as the phrase "don't get grabbed." There's often going to be a grab at some point. And when Ganondorf gets a grab, he either gets near 30% or a f*cking stock easy. To me, having nothing in the way of that is pretty juicy.

Aye. But this is where we want to weight something else: whether or not the prospect of a chancy grab-release will outweigh the benefit of a mitigated camp game. That, and it's not like YI and BF disallow grab-releases completely.

Check this video out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up1NUOVPJcw

Now, the Wario in this video is not great. i am well aware of that. I am also well aware that he made many mistakes (many people do in real life matches.) But I'm simply trying to illustrate that Ganondorf's aerials can contend with Wario pretty decently. But notice the difference between sv and fd. On sv, he actually was saved a couple times. If he were on FD, his stock would've been gone

Right. I'm not arguing that Ganon's aerials can't contend. But the problem is not in contest, rather, if there will even be a frontal confrontation to begin with.

My overall point is that Wario can camp Ganondorf very hard. I'm sure you and the rest of the Ganon mainers everywhere are well aware of this. I just see the boon of being able to mitigate his camp game as outweighing that of a very off-chance at a grab-release, when other stages don't really prohibit them in the first place.

10 character filler.

 

[Swoops]

I've faced a number of Warios in my day. Really, really good ones. Defensive Wario and campy Wario are unequivocal.

And so have I, but this doesn't make either of us automatically right. I know you're probably at the very least competent. But unequivocal? Wario tends to have crappy match ups against G&W and Marth. I know that these characters are the masters of spacing, godlike even...but try to see the point that even though they have good disjoints to their hitboxes, Ganondorf does just as well with his ridiculously prioritized aerials.

Aside from that, most of that what you said is true, however, if the Wario is aiming to win, he won't ever go close to Ganon unless to punish. The reason that Wario in that video lost like he did is not because the Ganon played inadequately, rather, the Wario failed to punish almost everything he did; and he did a lot of things that could've easily been punished.

And? Let's say Wario keeps as far away as possible from Ganondorf as possible. What then? What possibly does wario have that could put so much pressure on Ganondorf from a distance that Ganondorf has no choice but to move in? To put any pressure on Ganondorf, Wario has to get close. That's just the way it is. Wario doesn't have amazing sized hitboxes like Marth to keep Ganondorf at a distance. Wario's hitboxes have always pretty much been his hurtbox.

Here is where theory fighter plays in. You say "Well, if the Wario simply did this, he would of beat Ganondorf." But you also didn't take into account the number of times Ganondorf missed punishing wario. I remember a specific time where wario got an f-smash shielded, which would've been an easy f-tilt/DA kill for Ganon. He ended up going for a grab (which his follow up got stopped by a platform.) You completely ignore the fact that mistakes that were made by both parties.

Ganon's aerials contend with Wario's easily, yes. But the point is not whether or not his aerials can overpower Wario's, but rather, if he can ever get near the Wario before he's dair'd. If a Wario gets hit with an aerial that isn't uair or nair while airborne, he's a poor Wario. It's great that Wario will get hit by uair, but the problem lies in several places, but most notably is if the Wario is patient and doesn't rush in, you'll get a uair in off of chance occasionally. But then the problem arises that uair stales. None of Ganon's ground attacks will hit Wario unless he's overly aggressive. It's a lot like with Sonic. It's almost impossible to reach Sonic unless he comes to you. When he spindashes, you can easily get him with uair, but uair can only take you so far.

See my above comment. It is the point whether Ganondorf's aerials out-prioritize and cut through Wario's. Wario has to move inside to land a d-air. It's not even just Ganon's u-air and n-air either. B-air blows through wario's moves too. If ganondorf's b-air can consistently trade with D3's b-air, it can get through Wario's aerials. If a Wario get's hit by an u-air he's a poor Wario? I find that very hard to believe. When you're in the air, u-air is nasty to deal with.

Yes, Ganondorf's grounded attacks are much harder to hit wario with, very hard in fact. But DA says hi.

Aye. But this is where we want to weight something else: whether or not the prospect of a chancy grab-release will outweigh the benefit of a mitigated camp game. That, and it's not like YI and BF disallow grab-releases completely.

It will. Period. Near 30% or a stock? I'll let a wario "camp" me for a good minute or so if I can get one grab. Ganondorf mains should know that they're going to take some punishment while looking for an opportunity. If they don't, they're delusional. You're right, YI and BF don't disallow them completely, but you have major areas where the Wario doesn't have to worry about getting grabbed at all. On FD, every single area is fair pickings. If I was playing Wario, I would rather go to BF, YI, or SV any day than FD.


My overall point is that Wario can camp Ganondorf very hard. I'm sure you and the rest of the Ganon mainers everywhere are well aware of this. I just see the boon of being able to mitigate his camp game as outweighing that of a very off-chance at a grab-release, when other stages don't really prohibit them in the first place.

I can see how you are saying that platforms can hinder Wario's aerial game, but they do hinder guaranteed kills and heavy for Ganondorf. But Wario doesn't have such a deadly "camping" game that platforms are such a big factor in being able to win.

10tehfillers

 

[DarkRaptor]

This is sexcellent.

It would come in handy if I mained Ganon. fffff....

 

[Exalted]

I see alot of red, dark red and orange stages.

 

[Karcist]

Why is Brinstar bad against Snake? Brinstar is one of snake's worst maps and one of Ganon's best. Also, why is SV considered average? It's one of Snake's best maps.

 

[Bahamut777]

Why is Brinstar bad against Snake? Brinstar is one of snake's worst maps and one of Ganon's best. Also, why is SV considered average? It's one of Snake's best maps.

Because this is "old" and "undiscussed".

 

[Z1GMA]

Yoshi's Island shouldn't be red Vs Falco/Lucario/Marth.
Neither should Lylat Cruise.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If only PS2 was considered legal everywhere. That's one of Ganon's better stages, since most abusive tactics against him don't work as well on that stage depending on transformation, and he actually beats almost every character in the game besides like, G&W and Sonic when the transformation is air.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

If only PS2 was considered legal everywhere. That's one of Ganon's better stages, since most abusive tactics against him don't work as well on that stage depending on transformation, and he actually beats almost every character in the game besides like, G&W and Sonic when the transformation is air.

Short hop double fair

 

[bigbucks]

I love brinstar, Namely our super long airwizkick,Fsmash and dair in the bubbles. Not to mention that if you gerudo someone inside the bubbles the opponent's rolls will be trapped(meaning that no matter what command he inputs, he'll be in the same place) So you can attack him with whatever you want with 10x more ease.

 

[bigbucks]

If only PS2 was considered legal everywhere. That's one of Ganon's better stages, since most abusive tactics against him don't work as well on that stage depending on transformation, and he actually beats almost every character in the game besides like, G&W and Sonic when the transformation is air.

Im pretty sure Jiggs, wario, squirtle and other mobile air chars. are better than ganon on the air transformation. Because they can abuse their air speed more. Our air speed is awful.

 

[Exalted]

I just noticed that Brinstar is Ganon's best stage.

*intense Brinstar training*

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Brinstar is our second best. Evens out several matchups in a projectile heavy metagame. Norfair gives us a bunch of absolutely **** MUs and has great music as a plus. And Pirate Ship is Pirate Ship.

 

[Exalted]

I'm a quite potent Orpheon rapist, lol.
Metroid Prime da bess.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Funny how all 3 Metroid stages are great, though Orpheon significantly less so than the other two. Also, let's get on making an updated chart.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Im pretty sure Jiggs, wario, squirtle and other mobile air chars. are better than ganon on the air transformation. Because they can abuse their air speed more. Our air speed is awful.

Nah. Ganon outmaneuvers those characters on air vertically, which is by far much more important than horizontal movement on that transformation. The only characters who **** Ganon on air are basically Sonic and G&W.

And by the way I personally think Brinstar is an overrated stage for Ganondorf. Personally speaking I would rather go to Delphino.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Delfino, not Delphino.

Brinstar is great because of the really small blastzones and the acid helping our poor recovery. Not to mention Gerudo shenanigans, prolonged hitbox shenanigans and the great platform games.

Delfino is okay, but helps most characters much more than it does us, especially characters with strong air games. Never would take a Meta Knight there, but there's a lot of places I'd never take a Meta Knight.

 

[Exalted]

I was mucking around alot on Norfair today...Norfair too good.

(pointless message)

 

[Sovereign]

I was mucking around alot on Norfair today...Norfair too good.

(pointless message)

Norfair, Brinstar, and Battlefield are some of my favorite stages to take just about any of my opponents.