Ganon's Book of Sinister Secrets (Discoveries, Trix & ATs)

[Top Boss]

can up smash or DA sourspot lead to footstools? I'm not home so I can't test it out.

 

[darknesa]

I don't know if someone has mentioned this already (if they have, I apologise) and this is probably pretty useless information, but from my experience if Little Mac tech rolls Ganon's Flame Choke, you can still follow up with D-tilt.

 

[Naroghin]

can up smash or DA sourspot lead to footstools? I'm not home so I can't test it out.

Hmmm, it seems unlikely given Ganon's poor horizontal momentum in the air. Perhaps if you read them DIing in at low percents it could work. I'm hitting the lab now to see if it's viable.

EDIT: Initial testing at least shows that this is possible but not really practical. For these purposes I just did Ganon mirror with AI set to "stop" in order to see if I could even get any footstools to land. Below were my findings.

USmash: only really works at 0 - 5% sweet-spotted. Sour spot doesn't really work because the opponent lands too soon at lower percents and goes too far forward at higher percents.
DA Sweet: Seems to work around 15 - 35% depending on spacing.
DA Sour: Seems to work from 40% all the way to around 70% and seems to work the most consistently (knockback scales less than others).
DTilt: Needs more testing, but may work spaced closely at low-mid percents.

Unfortunately, all of the above information does not consider that you will be playing against someone who will still be touching their controller after you hit them. Because of Ganon's ending lag on these moves and slow movement, we have to time the footstool a little later and the opponent can act before we get there. The only way these work is if the opponent does nothing, so if you can somehow condition your opponent to not act right away, you may be able to get one of these to land, but the timing is very precise and dependent on percentage. Also consider the fact that this was only tested against another Ganon. I have no idea how the percentages and viability of this will change depending on which character you are facing. It may be worth looking into this (nothing is beyond looking at for Ganon, anyway) but don't expect to get as much mileage out of this as, say, Tip N' Slide.

I don't know if someone has mentioned this already (if they have, I apologise) and this is probably pretty useless information, but from my experience if Little Mac tech rolls Ganon's Flame Choke, you can still follow up with D-tilt.

I think this is pretty well known, but it's not useless information. I think there is a chart around here somewhere about all teched and non-teched options from each opponent and how we can punish. Little Mac is fun because, if I remember correctly, Dtilt also hits non-tech and tech in place. Uncertain about that, though.

 

[Theosmeo]

So I never learned how to perfect pivot because I thought it was a goofy gimmick that wouldn't help my Ganon play. Now I want to know if anyone here can, because if you connect a Usmash on a shield could you pivot in and whip out another one? Then you could break the shield with a wizkick, dtilt, or DA. Could someone please lab this? It´d be so amazing.

 

[krazyzyko]

They can react before the 2nd up smash comes out. But PP is still worth mastering IMO. For footsies, reverse up air, bair. PP > jab or d tilt are nice.

 

[Rebel13]

Theosmeo Ganondorf's perfect pivot barely moves him at all. You are really better off mastering dash trotting, because you can dash back and then dash attack the other way quite fast, as well as it's use in spacing, though it doesn't move Ganondorf too far either haha. Also Usmash on shield can lead to grabs, or extra shield pressure with back airs and D-tilt.

 

[Theosmeo]

Ok, I actually did the calculations of shield stun a few minutes ago and saw it wouldn´t work.

Well, we´ll find other shield breaks. I love Usmash>dtilt, it makes people crazy scared and you can shield poke with fair afterwards

 

[Top Boss]

I'm pretty sure our sweetspotted up smash gives us +3 frame advantage on shield, meaning the move is very safe, but can't get anything guaranteed afterwards.

 

[MGK]

Not sure if this is known but I learnt that you cancel your air dodge with a ledge cancel. So I did some tests and learnt that ganondorf can full hop air dodge onto a platform on battlefield and ledge cancel it. This isn't anything to amazing but you can ledge cancel into a Fair.

Usually when it comes to full hop air dodge, you can get a Nair, Uair and Bair out right near the ground, but if you ledge cancel your air dodge you can now do a Fair and the timing for the Fair is amazing, It covers so much! Sadly, you can't do a Dair from this but it's another options for the king of evil.

Also on Battlefield, you can use the outside of the platform to cancel a air dodge into another air dodge cancel to get off stage.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[NEStalgia314]

(Erased)..

 

[Swoops]

He gets some mileage out of PP USmash, FTilt, Grab, and maaaybe DTilt/DSmash. Truthfully though, it's not much as you can find other ways to accomplish that spacing. (eg. walk > FTilt, pivot jump-canceled USmash)

 

[ILOVESMASH]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDrZDOhPmQ0
If you imput down b almost immediately after imputting down on a platform, a shockwave will occur before ganon drops down. This tech seems situational at best.

 

[MGK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDrZDOhPmQ0
If you imput down b almost immediately after imputting down on a platform, a shockwave will occur before ganon drops down. This tech seems situational at best.

I find this out like 2 weeks ago but it's pretty useless tech as the hit boxes don't come out, it'll be more of a mind game thing though, so it might have little uses here and there.

 

[Tarry]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDrZDOhPmQ0
If you imput down b almost immediately after imputting down on a platform, a shockwave will occur before ganon drops down. This tech seems situational at best.

Oh this again.

 

[_Magus_]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDrZDOhPmQ0
If you imput down b almost immediately after imputting down on a platform, a shockwave will occur before ganon drops down. This tech seems situational at best.

We've known about this since the 3ds era. It's gone by many names (I believe Ray Kalm called it "the Hell Drop" at one point). Regardless, thanks for your contribution.

 

[Opana]

You know that Castle Flip kill combo? Well today has been my first time labbing in awhile and it turns out we can sour dash attack->buffer a turnaround->and bair for what I'd assume is an earlier kill. I tested it in training on ZSS and I connected the dash attack at 90 whie she was at center stage, and true combo a bair for the kill. I also theorize that we may be able to buffer a turnaround into a bair out of dthrow, at the least on Mewtwo for weighting so little yet being a large target.

EDIT: I can't get it to work on anyone else that I've tried, and I've tried Rob, Mario, and Sheik. I'm thinking if anything it will be mu specific to ZSS. It's a pretty tight string I might try in tourney though if I think it'd kill.

 

[Theosmeo]

You know that Castle Flip kill combo? Well today has been my first time labbing in awhile and it turns out we can sour dash attack->buffer a turnaround->and bair for what I'd assume is an earlier kill. I tested it in training on ZSS and I connected the dash attack at 90 whie she was at center stage, and true combo a bair for the kill. I also theorize that we may be able to buffer a turnaround into a bair out of dthrow, at the least on Mewtwo for weighting so little yet being a large target.

EDIT: I can't get it to work on anyone else that I've tried, and I've tried Rob, Mario, and Sheik. I'm thinking if anything it will be mu specific to ZSS. It's a pretty tight string I might try in tourney though if I think it'd kill.

Well anything we can get against ZSS is great, this seems like a good punish for a whiffed grab.

 

[verbatim]

You can also do dash attack to grab at 0% from my experience online. I haven't specifically tested it with other people offline but I doubt you can SDI out of Ganon's dash attack.

 

[Opana]

You can also do dash attack to grab at 0% from my experience online. I haven't specifically tested it with other people offline but I doubt you can SDI out of Ganon's dash attack.

Yeah dash attack>dthrow->dash attack->pivot grab is a fun string.

 

[Swoops]

You know that Castle Flip kill combo? Well today has been my first time labbing in awhile and it turns out we can sour dash attack->buffer a turnaround->and bair for what I'd assume is an earlier kill. I tested it in training on ZSS and I connected the dash attack at 90 whie she was at center stage, and true combo a bair for the kill. I also theorize that we may be able to buffer a turnaround into a bair out of dthrow, at the least on Mewtwo for weighting so little yet being a large target.

EDIT: I can't get it to work on anyone else that I've tried, and I've tried Rob, Mario, and Sheik. I'm thinking if anything it will be mu specific to ZSS. It's a pretty tight string I might try in tourney though if I think it'd kill.

If you guys haven't been using DThrow > turnaround BAir I don't know what y'all are smoking.

Also, against fast fallers near the edge DThrow > Wizkick can be a true combo into a kill if they DI down/out. Pretty specific though

 

[Theosmeo]

You can also do dash attack to grab at 0% from my experience online. I haven't specifically tested it with other people offline but I doubt you can SDI out of Ganon's dash attack.

Late DA right?

 

[verbatim]

If you guys haven't been using DThrow > turnaround BAir I don't know what y'all are smoking.

Also, against fast fallers near the edge DThrow > Wizkick can be a true combo into a kill if they DI down/out. Pretty specific though

I'm in a situation where I can't play Smash for the next few days so I can't call people out on it but someone said down throw to wizkick (NOT DROP KICK) is a true combo on every character and I want to call bs but I can't. That's not a thing right (as in unDIable)?

 

[Swoops]

I'm in a situation where I can't play Smash for the next few days so I can't call people out on it but someone said down throw to wizkick (NOT DROP KICK) is a true combo on every character and I want to call bs but I can't. That's not a thing right (as in unDIable)?

It is at lower percents on most everyone. It works on a bit wider range of percents than dash attack too as long as they are DIing down. However, it is only a kill combo at the edge on certain character at certain percents.

 

[Theosmeo]

People usually just jump away before they get hit by wizkick, and it´s so laggy we can´t punish the landing

 

[Swoops]

People usually just jump away if they get hit by wizkick, and it´s so laggy we can´t punish the landing

This is true, but in certain situations it's the only guaranteed damage you can get out of dthrow.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_V8yMqfHa8

 

[Theosmeo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_V8yMqfHa8

I´m pretty sure Fair can auto cancel onto the stage as well, which can trick ppl to put up shields.

EDIT: yeah here it is http://smashboards.com/threads/anot...back-on-stage-video-showcase-included.418974/

 

[Pikachutobal]

If I discover a glitch, I could post it here?

 

[Opana]

I know it's been known we can land with some aerials on stage from the ledge, so I'm unsure if this is known but we can land on stage within uairs autocancel window, on fd at least.

 

[Theosmeo]

I know it's been known we can land with some aerials on stage from the ledge, so I'm unsure if this is known but we can land on stage within uairs autocancel window, on fd at least.

The 3 frames of Uair? does the autocancel lag make us a smaller hitbox than Bair autocancel? Otherwise that seems harder to execute...

 

[Opana]

The 3 frames of Uair? does the autocancel lag make us a smaller hitbox than Bair autocancel? Otherwise that seems harder to execute...

Nah I mean I fully through out the hitbox and landed on stage with minimal lag. Was looking for a more efficient way of dealing with gordo bs, this seems super useful but I haven't been able to replicate it smh.

 

[Z1GMA]

A sneaky way to Shield Break:
If you recover and hold down (punching through the ledge), and they shield it, you can land an aerial wizkick on them to break their shield during the next couple of seconds.

If I discover a glitch, I could post it here?

Feel free to !

I know it's been known we can land with some aerials on stage from the ledge, so I'm unsure if this is known but we can land on stage within uairs autocancel window, on fd at least.

Ye, the Flipman is a lot harder in this game than in Brawl.
it's kinda weird, cuz ledgedrop > DJ > Aerudo was almost impossible in Brawl, but child's play in this game.

 

[Theosmeo]

A sneaky way to Shield Break:
If you recover and hold down (punching through the ledge), and they shield it, you can land an aerial wizkick on them to break their shield during the next couple of seconds.

So ledgehop wizkick? Seems really useful against people who like holding shield

 

[Opana]

Man the post I made in kalms topic was meant for here lol.

Can we aerudo lower to the ground if we dj? I always just timed it at the soonest I coukd with a dj input.

 

[free33]

So does nobody use dash attack as a footstool setup? I see above that it works, but I have never seen any ganondorfs use it. I was labbing it last night, and was getting the sweet spot to work as low as 10% on Mario, and the sourspot worked up to about 80% and is a really useful kill setup. I know late hit of dash attack isn't the easiest thing to land, but it does work. Also at low percents with the sweet spot, I was able to connect a dark dive uppercut after the up smash, and I got it to register as a true combo on Ike in the 25-30% range. That's some really good damage (though obviously DIable, but people DI down when hit by up smash anyway, so this could actually work well). So sweet spot dash attack-footstool-fastfall up air (jab lock)-up smash-dark dive uppercut. Also not that I am generally bad at footstooling, so the percent ranges are probably wider than I got.

 

[adom4]

So does nobody use dash attack as a footstool setup? I see above that it works, but I have never seen any ganondorfs use it. I was labbing it last night, and was getting the sweet spot to work as low as 10% on Mario, and the sourspot worked up to about 80% and is a really useful kill setup. I know late hit of dash attack isn't the easiest thing to land, but it does work. Also at low percents with the sweet spot, I was able to connect a dark dive uppercut after the up smash, and I got it to register as a true combo on Ike in the 25-30% range. That's some really good damage (though obviously DIable, but people DI down when hit by up smash anyway, so this could actually work well). So sweet spot dash attack-footstool-fastfall up air (jab lock)-up smash-dark dive uppercut. Also not that I am generally bad at footstooling, so the percent ranges are probably wider than I got.

Ganon's footstool setups aren't really that practical, U-air or grab is usually a better follow up after a sourspot DA.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Dthrow footstool would be more viable anyway. But I don't use footstools.

 

[Opana]

Best footstool set up is off a low to early mid percent grounded dair since it's untechable and guaranteed. I have messed with dash attack fstool and they can jump out from out afaik.

 

[Theosmeo]

The clock of Umbra Clock Tower is very slightly depressed, this means that on a short hop from the rim of the clock to the center you can AUTO CANCEL DOWN AIR.

Finally it's possible yiss

 

[MGK]

Hey all Ganondorf's, so I've seen a lot of stuff about Ike and how hard it is to get anything off of side B cos of how good his roll is. So I did some tests and these are the results.

Away

- Wiz Kick

Behind

- Side B
- Dash Attack

Away (Missed tech)

- Side B (Delay required)
- Wiz Kick
- Dash Attack
- Ran and grab

Behind (Missed tech)

- fSmash (Instant)
- Turn around dTilt
- Side B (Delay required)
- SH Fair
- SH Bair
- SH Nair into Grab
- SH Dair
- SH Uair
- Run pivot fTilt
- Turn around wiz kick

The miss tech to behind roll isn't really needed but still good to know. Hope this helps.