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Gay!

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EmperorB-rad2kj

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My biggest question is do you think you will get any results out of this is that what your looking for? Or are you just simply trying to discuss this topic rather than have people act on it. Changing peoples minds is an extremely hard thing to do unless they want to change it themselves.

Just a little note when people relate slavery and women's rights to this topic those to things were backed up by the law itself while using the word gay is restricted to a persons opinion and not just the smash community but , many other communities as well.
 

Lenus Altair

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My biggest question is do you think you will get any results out of this is that what your looking for? Or are you just simply trying to discuss this topic rather than have people act on it. Changing peoples minds is an extremely hard thing to do unless they want to change it themselves.
Again I'm just promoting awareness. I feel I have already had an effect on some. If I change a persons mind great, but I realize how difficult that truly is.
 

Zankoku

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To be honest, I think everyone was aware that there is a mix of people who don't take offense to something and people who do.
 

Alphicans

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When I first learned the word "gay" I didn't know it labeled a homosexual, in fact I wasn't even sure if that type of person existed or if it were possible. I learned "gay" just by listening to older kids talk and thought that it meant something stupid/wrong/annoying etc. It wasn't till a while after that I learned the homosexual definition of it.

I think this is probably the case for a lot of people, and may explain why people don't give a ****.
 

Lenus Altair

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To be honest, I think everyone was aware that there is a mix of people who don't take offense to something and people who do.
To be honest, I think a lot people on these boards long ago made a choice to disregard the fact that their use of the word gay was offensive to others here.
 

Zankoku

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Your use of the word "there" is more offensive to me than anything else.

The word "gay" is part of a long list of words that might offend someone in the community but doesn't see much diminishing in use at all.
 

Zankoku

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...I'm not sure whether it'd be worse if he was doing this on purpose or on accident.
 

Ganonsburg

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So Lenus finds it troubling that Ankoku continues to exercise his rights. Interesting...
 

CrayonWarrior

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It really doesn't matter lol.

It's just a term used to describe something as annoying.

Nobody uses it to intentionally degrade gays or anything.
It really does though. being Bisexual, i find the subtle digs more annoying than th obvious ones

you also speak of "gays" like they're some kind of diseased beings, ratheer than people
 

Gea

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Right but as many people have said the argument goes both ways. Why should you get special treatment?
 

CrayonWarrior

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Right but as many people have said the argument goes both ways. Why should you get special treatment?
Its not about special treatment. It's about equal rights.
according to people like you, we have none.
how is THAT fair?

Why, that just because we are in the minority means that everyone can hate on us and no-one cares.

but i wouldn't expect you to understand
 

GimR

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Words change. You really have no right to be upset about it seeing as the original meaning of gay is "happy". By your logic, you should be upset that it's even being used to define some one being a homosexual in the first place. You should be defending its original meaning.

my 2 cents
 

Zankoku

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Its not about special treatment. It's about equal rights.
according to people like you, we have none.
how is THAT fair?

Why, that just because we are in the minority means that everyone can hate on us and no-one cares.

but i wouldn't expect you to understand
You're right, I don't understand. It's hard to understand people who speak of the future when they're so concerned with the past.

In an equal world, we wouldn't have derogatory terms for certain people and the use of the word "gay" would be perfectly fine because it's not associated to "homosexual male." And yet, guess what group of people is included in those who continue to perpetuate that "gay" should continue to remain a term for "homosexual male"?
 

Lenus Altair

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Right but as many people have said the argument goes both ways. Why should you get special treatment?
Okay, you have the right to use any word you want as well, despite the fact that I may consider it personally offensive. Glad we are clear about that.
Honestly I'm not 100% sure what you're referring to. Do you mean your comments referring to me as a hypocrite and what you said supporting that? The idea that that the word Gay as a label for homosexual is offensive (and offensive to you?)
 

Gea

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I'm saying I find it offensive that you would rather me not say something that you deem offensive even though contextually it has naught to do with you. We both find it offensive. Why should you be catered to?
 

CrayonWarrior

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Words change. You really have no right to be upset about it seeing as the original meaning of gay is "happy". By your logic, you should be upset that it's even being used to define some one being a homosexual in the first place. You should be defending its original meaning.

my 2 cents
Words change, yes, but we are still human beings.
condoning homophobia is just as bad as homophobia itself.

Also, everyone has a right to be upset about anything providing [their view] does not offend someone else.

Also, i think you'll find that we took the word and gave it its meaning as homosexual.

people CAN change words, but using it as a term for something annoying is like someone replacing the word bad with Jew. they are both EQUALLY offensive

even if you say that Jew refers to an entire race, religion or whatever, you are forgetting that everyone is human, therefore a slur on anyone is wrong.

What anyone does in their spare time is no regards to you.
 

Gatlin

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The thing that is bothering me about this thread is that after doing a quick word-search, I do not see a single hint of the word "Brawl" in the past 40+ posts. Guys you are able to discuss this as long as it pertains to Brawl, please try to stay on topic and not drag this out to flames amongst each other.

Lenus, if the word truly bothers you that much, simply tell the speaker to use a different word. If they do not abide by your plea then simply don't pursue further conversation with them.

If you show you care and take great offense to the word, it may influence the speaker to continue using it, just because they see they get a reaction out of you.
 

Lenus Altair

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I'm saying I find it offensive that you would rather me not say something that you deem offensive even though contextually it has naught to do with you. We both find it offensive. Why should you be catered to?
So basically:

1: "I hate planking. It's so gay"

2: "I think that's offensive. Please don't say that it's gay. It alienates others and implies that there is something wrong with being homosexual."

1: "I think it's offensive that you're offended when I use the word gay. I wasn't saying being homosexual is wrong. Just the act of planking."

------

Well I see a couple of ways to look at this.

You can look at in in terms of equal rights. Both are free to speak there minds as they have done and made each other aware of what bothers them . They can choose to move past that or disassociate.

You can look in terms of who it does the greater harm to. That is a debate in itself.


But in the end, even though I don't agree with your stance you do have a point. We both do agree on the right for those things to be said, and your offense comes from the idea of being censored. However censorship is not my argument. The consequences of what people say should be social, not laws.

This topic has proved my point as it does bother players in the Smash community at large. I'm just showing that there are those who are affected and will regard/treat you differently because of how you use the word gay. Yes, that is a two way street.



Lenus, if the word truly bothers you that much, simply tell the speaker to use a different word. If they do not abide by your plea then simply don't pursue further conversation with them.
Already do. Just making it broad and on the boards. If I have my way and go to CoT5 you can expect me to say it to anyone I deal with.

You can consider this my official request.

Please stop using the word gay when you mean stupid, unfair, or wrong. I think it hurts people you don't realize.
 

GimR

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Words change, yes, but we are still human beings.
condoning homophobia is just as bad as homophobia itself.

Also, everyone has a right to be upset about anything providing [their view] does not offend someone else.

Also, i think you'll find that we took the word and gave it its meaning as homosexual.

people CAN change words, but using it as a term for something annoying is like someone replacing the word bad with Jew. they are both EQUALLY offensive

even if you say that Jew refers to an entire race, religion or whatever, you are forgetting that everyone is human, therefore a slur on anyone is wrong.

What anyone does in their spare time is no regards to you.
if I use the word gay, and I am not talking about a homosexual or anything about homosexuality does a homosexual have the right to be offended? If so, does that mean I get to take a word, change its meaning, and get offended when homosexuals start saying it, even if it has nothing to do with me?
 

Gea

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The consequences of what people say should be social[ly enforced, not legally.]
The issue I have goes beyond censorship. It is you drawing attention from a situation that was never about you. If I am sitting there doing friendlies at a TV and talking about planking and you come up behind me and start telling me how you find the word gay to be offensive, I am probably going to be annoyed by you because it had nothing to do with you in the first place. You're the one making it about you.

This is Brawl. Leave your sexual orientation at the door, because I promise no one cares about it as much as they do the game. Quit defining yourself with your sexual orientation and calling attention to the fact that yes, you are gay. This community as a whole doesn't care about your sexual orientation, and the amount of homosexuality that is out in the open in our community proves this.

If any group has a right to be miffed about not being able to "leave" their identity at the door around smashers I would say it's females. But you know what? I've seen actual issues arise at tournaments/smashfests because of things like gender. What was done? The people talked about it on the side like adults and the entire situation was dealt with accordingly. Once again these things are secondary to the game.

If there is a problem with someone making you feel unwelcome because they are outright bashing homosexuality that is one thing and you should bring it up with the TO or your local community if that is the case, but all you are doing currently is isolating yourself by calling attention to something that makes no difference in regards to a videogame.
 

Lenus Altair

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The issue I have goes beyond censorship. It is you drawing attention from a situation that was never about you. If I am sitting there doing friendlies at a TV and talking about planking and you come up behind me and start telling me how you find the word gay to be offensive, I am probably going to be annoyed by you because it had nothing to do with you in the first place. You're the one making it about you.
I bring it up when someone does it when talking with me. I do not hunt down every odd comment that might pass my ear.

This is Brawl. Leave your sexual orientation at the door, because I promise no one cares about it as much as they do the game. Quit defining yourself with your sexual orientation and calling attention to the fact that yes, you are gay. This community as a whole doesn't care about your sexual orientation, and the amount of homosexuality that is out in the open in our community proves this.
It only seems that way because on the forum I am quite obviously gay since I've been promoting my point of view on this matter recently, when in meeting me most people wouldn't know unless the topic comes up.

I'm not saying that the community cares about my or others sexual orientation or that they should. I'm not saying the community isn''t accepting. I'm saying that I disagree with the majority of the communities use of the word gay.

but all you are doing currently is isolating yourself by calling attention to something that makes no difference in regards to a videogame.
It doesn't make a difference in the game, only on the games community.
 

Dooms

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Honestly, It'd be great if people stopped, but that may just be in my area. In the gaming community I know, gay led to being replaced by "Jewish"... Yeah. I don't like where that is going at all. Just a personal opinion and that's just in my area XD!
 

Gea

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I'm not saying that the community cares about my or others sexual orientation or that they should. I'm not saying the community isn''t accepting. I'm saying that I disagree with the majority of the communities use of the word gay.
But if you admittedly realize their intentions of the word is not derogatory, then why be offended? They aren't being ignorant in their usage of the word, it is a word and they are using it in a perfectly acceptable context about something not even alive. If you agree that the community respects all people of any sexual orientation, then why does this topic even exist?

You can clearly see the difference in meanings, and they can clearly see the difference in meanings. There is no tension about your sexual orientation. I still fail to see how this entire topic is relevant to Brawl's community.
 

CrayonWarrior

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But if you admittedly realize their intentions of the word is not derogatory then why be offended? They aren't being ignorant in their usage of the word, it is a word and they are using it in a perfectly acceptable context about something not even alive. If you agree that the community respects all people of any sexual orientation, then why does this topic even exist?

You can clearly see the difference in meanings, and they can clearly see the difference in meanings. There is no tension about your sexual orientation. I still fail to see how this entire topic is relevant to Brawl's community.
it is relevant to brawl's community

those like GIMR will obviously be biased because of the bible
BUT the bible was writen by several different people, none of which are god. The bible has many homosexual love stories like david and johnathon and jesus said NOTHING about homosexuality.
Jesus even made friends with a prostitute, so your religion says nothing

why it matters is because it shouldn't

it shouldn't matter that we're gay/bi but it does, because people in the brawl community frequently use it as an insult

sure the word means nothing, but if it didn't mean homosexual, they would never have used it as an insult in the first place
 

Gea

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sure the word means nothing, but if it didn't mean homosexual, they would never have used it as an insult in the first place
Says who? It meant insulting things before it ever referred to homosexuality.

it shouldn't matter that we're gay/bi but it does, because people in the brawl community frequently use it as an insult
No, it doesn't matter what your sexual orientation is. As has been stated in almost every other post in this thread, the word "gay" can mean things that has nothing to do with sexual orientation and is being used in said context.
 

Gea

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Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay

Wikipedia said:
Overview

Cartoon from Punch magazine in 1857 illustrating the use of "gay" as a euphemism for being a prostitute. One woman says to the other (who looks glum), "How long have you been gay?" The poster on the wall is for La Traviata, an opera about a courtesan.

The word "gay" arrived in English during the 12th century from Old French gai, most likely deriving ultimately from a Germanic source.[1] For most of its life in English, the word's primary meaning was "joyful", "carefree", "bright and showy", and the word was very commonly used with this meaning in speech and literature. For example, the optimistic 1890s are still often referred to as the Gay Nineties. The title of the 1938 French ballet Gaîté Parisienne ("Parisian Gaiety"), which became the 1941 Warner Brothers movie, The Gay Parisian,[6] also illustrates this connotation. It was apparently not until the 20th century that the word began to be used to mean specifically "homosexual", although it had earlier acquired sexual connotations.[1]

The derived abstract noun gaiety remains largely free of sexual connotations, and has, in the past, been used in the names of places of entertainment; for example W.B. Yeats heard Oscar Wilde lecture at the Gaiety Theatre in Dublin.[7]
Sexualization

The word had started to acquire associations of immorality by 1637[1] and was used in the late 17th century with the meaning "addicted to pleasures and dissipations."[8] This was by extension from the primary meaning of "carefree": implying "uninhibited by moral constraints." A gay woman was a prostitute, a gay man a womanizer and a gay house a brothel.[1]

The use of gay to mean "homosexual" was in origin merely an extension of the word's sexualised connotation of "carefree and uninhibited", which implied a willingness to disregard conventional or respectable sexual mores. Such usage is documented as early as the 1920s, and there is evidence for it before the 20th century,[1] although it was initially more commonly used to imply heterosexually unconstrained lifestyles, as in the once-common phrase "gay Lothario",[9] or in the title of the book and film The Gay Falcon (1941), which concerns a womanizing detective whose first name is "Gay." Well into the mid 20th century a middle-aged bachelor could be described as "gay", indicating that he was unattached and therefore free, without any implication of homosexuality. This usage could apply to women too. The British comic strip Jane was first published in the 1930s and described the adventures of Jane Gay. Far from implying homosexuality, it referred to her free-wheeling lifestyle with plenty of boyfriends (while also punning on Lady Jane Grey).
It had negative connotations for three hundred years before ever being about sexual orientation specifically.
 

GimR

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it is relevant to brawl's community

those like GIMR will obviously be biased because of the bible
BUT the bible was writen by several different people, none of which are god. The bible has many homosexual love stories like david and johnathon and jesus said NOTHING about homosexuality.
Jesus even made friends with a prostitute, so your religion says nothing

why it matters is because it shouldn't

it shouldn't matter that we're gay/bi but it does, because people in the brawl community frequently use it as an insult

sure the word means nothing, but if it didn't mean homosexual, they would never have used it as an insult in the first place
Let me get this straight, it's okay for you to attack my world view and to misquote it out of context and to just say false things about it but I'm not allowed to even say a word that might pertain to your world view or you'll get offended? Don't you find that to be hypocritcal. And why, instead of responding to my argument do you just go after my beliefs?
 

Lenus Altair

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But if you admittedly realize their intentions of the word is not derogatory, then why be offended? They aren't being ignorant in their usage of the word, it is a word and they are using it in a perfectly acceptable context about something not even alive. If you agree that the community respects all people of any sexual orientation, then why does this topic even exist?
The community is accepting, but I did not say respectful. In general the community is but I don't see it in how the word gay is used.

You can clearly see the difference in meanings, and they can clearly see the difference in meanings. There is no tension about your sexual orientation. I still fail to see how this entire topic is relevant to Brawl's community.
Despite the different meanings, the way the brawl community uses the word gay still associates the idea of homosexuality as wrong to me and others despite intentions. Again, intent is not needed to do harm, harm which I and others have defined.

That's how I see it, and I don't see us agreeing.
 

CrayonWarrior

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Let me get this straight, it's okay for you to attack my world view and to misquote it out of context and to just say false things about it but I'm not allowed to even say a word that might pertain to your world view or you'll get offended? Don't you find that to be hypocritcal. And why, instead of responding to my argument do you just go after my beliefs?
i technically haven't
i'm just saying, Christianity and homosexuality are not binary opposites.

The thing is. i'm not insulting you as a person. you are.
i agree with the way Jesus treated everyone, but i can't stand how some people ignore his message when they follow a religion based around him
 

Krystedez

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The bible has many homosexual love stories like david and johnathon and jesus said NOTHING about homosexuality.
Jesus even made friends with a prostitute, so your religion says nothing
Can we not bring in interpretations of the Bible when we're discussing the Brawl community and the social ramifications of using words in different context? It's only hurtful to others when you talk of things of which you've done little research on yourself or have little knowledge of from the looks of things, and it just spews s***-storm all over the place.

Look, it is true that the New Testament is much less driveled with references to homosexuality being a sin or something, which is why I feel more tolerable of homosexuals and have no preference in regards to whether it is right or wrong (but I would find it wrong of myself to do such things). But I will be the first to admit that that's my intepretation and I will be damned before I shove my interpretation of the Bible down someone else's throat in order to make a point about something completely different, which you have done.

In any case, your one example has many interpretations and counter-arguments that it isn't useful to prove anything against someone's opinion about a cultural tie-in to the word gay.
 

Gea

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Despite the different meanings, the way the brawl community uses the word gay still associates the idea of homosexuality as wrong to me and others despite intentions.
And yet we come back to the argument that many more others don't see a problem because they realize this has nothing to do with sexual orientation. Why should you and a few others get specialized treatment for something you agree isn't directly hateful towards you?

This is a circular argument at this point, and I can agree that we probably won't agree. Just consider that no matter how carefully you word yourself someone can always be offended. As long as you aren't specifically hating on anyone, any disputes can be settled personally without trying to require a community to walk on eggshells. Which since the usage in question has nothing to do with sexual orientation, asking others to modify their speech for a small minority is silly when this can be dealt with in a more personalized fashion (Which you say you do anyways). What's the problem? There is no problem. Stop expecting people to do something special for you when they are doing nothing against you in the first place.
 

CrayonWarrior

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Look, it is true that the New Testament is much less driveled with references to homosexuality being a sin or something, which is why I feel more tolerable of homosexuals and have no preference in regards to whether it is right or wrong (but I would find it wrong of myself to do such things). But I will be the first to admit that that's my intepretation and I will be damned before I shove my interpretation of the Bible down someone else's throat in order to make a point about something completely different, which you have done.
umm several things
I'm sorry if I am offending you.
I am ok with people hating on homosexuals
Its prejudice, which i am fine with if it doesn't turn into discrimination, which it has done.

If you (not you, just people in general) find men loving other men, and women loving other women wrong, then please do a recheck, because i am certain that Jesus taught to love another as i have loved you.
 

GimR

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i technically haven't
i'm just saying, Christianity and homosexuality are not binary opposites.

The thing is. i'm not insulting you as a person. you are.
i agree with the way Jesus treated everyone, but i can't stand how some people ignore his message when they follow a religion based around him
You are misinterpreting and misstating the Bible thus you are insulting God not me. Also, since you want to bring up the Bible, it clearly states that homosexuality is an abomination to God. Please don't pretend like homosexuality and Christianity can go hand in hand. You can only come to that conclusion by severely twisting the words in the Bible to try and make them mean what you want them to or by quoting things out of context to get them to mean what you want them to.


I'm not arguing with you anymore because doing so would be fruitless. You have already made Huge untrue claims about the Bible with out providing any facts which shows that you are sloppy when debating and are willing to state things quickly with out backing them up. I feel like arguing with you any further would end up going know where especially since you still have not addressed my argument made a couple pages up.


Can we not bring in interpretations of the Bible when we're discussing the Brawl community and the social ramifications of using words in different context? It's only hurtful to others when you talk of things of which you've done little research on yourself or have little knowledge of from the looks of things, and it just spews s***-storm all over the place.

Look, it is true that the New Testament is much less driveled with references to homosexuality being a sin or something, which is why I feel more tolerable of homosexuals and have no preference in regards to whether it is right or wrong (but I would find it wrong of myself to do such things). But I will be the first to admit that that's my intepretation and I will be damned before I shove my interpretation of the Bible down someone else's throat in order to make a point about something completely different, which you have done.

In any case, your one example has many interpretations and counter-arguments that it isn't useful to prove anything against someone's opinion about a cultural tie-in to the word gay.
basically. I'm not gonna say I agree 100% though
 
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