General ICs Q&A Thread

[Asakura cR]

Just out of curiously, does anyone else play with their Y-Button as grab instead of jump? I feel it's easier for me grab/quicker for me.

 

[xExile]

Are you charging with Stick+A? If so, then don't. Use CStick+Z to charge smashes, and it will never throw. If you already are, then you're knocking the main stick somehow, pay attention to your fingers lol.

btw, I personally don't charge smashes at all. There are some -insanely- good mashers in my region (mashed out at 110+ hax), so I tend to just CG them higher and popo-smash them outright. But that's beside the point.

Yeah there's a guy at my school that mashes out at like 110+ and I just kinda stand there dumbfounded. Rofl actually when mashing though...do you just mash the control stick around or can you input buttons too? I never did entirely figure that out.

Edit: Yeah I used the stick and A I'll start using cstick and Z though. It's an easy switch to make...I hope.

 

[r3d d09]

i use x to grab.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Yeah there's a guy at my school that mashes out at like 110+ and I just kinda stand there dumbfounded. Rofl actually when mashing though...do you just mash the control stick around or can you input buttons too? I never did entirely figure that out.

Edit: Yeah I used the stick and A I'll start using cstick and Z though. It's an easy switch to make...I hope.

C-stick has to be set back to neutral for it to count as mashing out, same for it with DI.

Control Stick however can be circled around and never set back to neutral. To count towards mashing out.

 

[J4pu]

Are you charging with Stick+A? If so, then don't. Use CStick+Z to charge smashes, and it will never throw. If you already are, then you're knocking the main stick somehow, pay attention to your fingers lol.

btw, I personally don't charge smashes at all. There are some -insanely- good mashers in my region (mashed out at 110+ hax), so I tend to just CG them higher and popo-smash them outright. But that's beside the point.

if you use Popo to smash (despite the data going against experience and saying you should use Nana for some reason) you can actually get a decent charge while Nana is doing her Dthrow animation then release as she does (if you release to early it won't work but you should be able to do it if you can CG)

 

[EverAlert]

J4pu - Yeah I know, but I just find it less of a hassle to do the one extra throw rather than bother with partial charges while throwing, also I find it easier to judge whether or not they'll die if I'm dealing in absolutes with the charging (ie fully charged or not charged). It's a good idea if you're bothered though.

Yeah there's a guy at my school that mashes out at like 110+ and I just kinda stand there dumbfounded. Rofl actually when mashing though...do you just mash the control stick around or can you input buttons too? I never did entirely figure that out.

Edit: Yeah I used the stick and A I'll start using cstick and Z though. It's an easy switch to make...I hope.

Yeah its pretty easy.

About mashing - basically, when you're being grabbed you have 90+(1.7*dmg) frames before you break out naturally. Doing a full quarter-circle on either sticks takes 8 frames off this count, and doing any other input subtracts 4 frames each. Keep in mind that if any of the inputs are the "same" across frames, then it counts as a single input even if the physical buttons are different (eg if you press Y one frame, release, then press X the next frame - it counts as a single input because there was 2 "jump" inputs without a frame gap).

And no, for rotating the CStick you do NOT need to return it to neutral to add DI/mashing inputs, that only applies to doing moves while you're free. So you can rotate the CStick constantly like the main stick while mashing. btw, you have to do a full quarter-circle for it to count the input, you won't get 4 frames deducted by doing a 1/8th-circle.

I think that summarises it well...

 

[J4pu]

And no, for rotating the CStick you do NOT need to return it to neutral to add DI/mashing inputs

You sure about that? I've heard otherwise many times from many people who know what they are talking about.

 

[EverAlert]

Hmm. I could have sworn I read it in some thread on mashing/grab releases, but I can't find it in my bookmarks and can't find the particular one I'm thinking of with searches. And everywhere that -does- come up says otherwise. Oh well, just assume I'm wrong then, my bad. :S


btw, a correction - stick inputs deduct 16, other inputs deduct 8.

 

[xExile]

I see, thanks. I guess I'll just return the c-stick to neutral then to be safe. Now that I know the details to it...it feels weird actually trying it. Takes getting used to I suppose. I usually never rotated the c-stick to begin with and just the control stick and pressing random buttons. Haha

 

[Rubberbandman]

e_a you do have to return the C-Stick to neutral, and yes it counts twice as much as the other buttons to mash.

e_a, when you look at how the game inputs the c-stick you'll see that for everything it has to go back to neutral before you can input something else. Try using a more than one smash attack on the stick without putting it to neutral. Try SDIing a smart bomb without reseting to neutral as well.

My case be rested.

 

[EverAlert]

I didn't say you didn't have to for attacks, only mashing/sdi... And I did already admit I was wrong... Thanks for that. >_>

 

[Rubberbandman]

I always rub in any informational victories in on accident. My bad ._.

 

[J4pu]

What's the deciding factor on whether or not a pivot desync works
is it how fast you return the stick to neutral after the DD? how fast you do the DD? something else?

I'm so terribly inconsistent at this and it's a backbone to IC's desyncing game, some days I can do them consistently across FD, some days I get like 1/50 tries

I can do the hylian desync (backwards) or w/e it's called now more consistently than I can do the pivot desync :/

 

[EverAlert]

You have to tap the stick back and return it to neutral within 1 frame. And it has to be done within 6 frames of the previous dash (or 7 frames if it was a backdash; also this is the same timing for pure dashdancing). And this time, I can tell you I'm right straight away, I did the testing while I was writing the guide to desynching.


Rubberbandman - Nah don't worry about it dude, I normally would have been like "oh, okay then" and let it slide but I was like heaps tired and not thinking, no johns tho lul. But yeah rubbing it in is silly.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Dash Dances for me are pretty instantaneous for me, they just aren't as consistent as a pivot, but its more reliable in midrange combat.

I never notice when I rub it in until the person points it out to me really.

 

[phi1ny3]

Doesn't Hylian's desynch method involve desynching out of dash? I can't seem to pivot desynch but I think this one works for me more anyways (tight timing, but I can visually spot when to do it to get it going like 70% of the time)

Best of all, it lets Nana perform the first move as opposed to Popo when you pivot desynch.

 

[00-Zero]

Doesn't Hylian's desynch method involve desynching out of dash? I can't seem to pivot desynch but I think this one works for me more anyways (tight timing, but I can visually spot when to do it to get it going like 70% of the time)

Best of all, it lets Nana perform the first move as opposed to Popo when you pivot desynch.

You can get nana to do the first move with the DD desync as well. The timing is just a bit more strict. I don`t know the exact timing for it though, as I usually prefer other desyncs more than this one.

An easier and somewhat safer method for getting nana to attack first would be the shield drop (kakera) desync retreating or approaching.

Iirc, another way to get nana to attack first is by performing a dash dance, and inputting a third dashing direction as you shoot an ice block or blizzard.

If nana attacking first is what you want, there are a number of ways you can accomplish it without having to perfect Hylian's desync, although it's definitely a plus if you do.

 

[phi1ny3]

So how exactly do you pivot desynch? I tried tilting one way -> tapping the other -> ice block, but it seems to only do the pseudo-Hylian version.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Do a true pivot and shoot an Ice Block.

 

[Hylian]

It's the same pivot that was in melee. The main method of desynching I use is the Pivot desynch, it's really not that difficult to get down consistently.

Dash one direction and then immediately flick the control stick in the opposite direction to pivot. Make sure you flick it the opposite direction you dashed and do so RIGHT after you input the dash. Flicking the control stick and letting go of it will center it which lets you pivot where as if you hold onto it you will have to center it yourself and that's silly.

So Dash right -> flick control stick left as soon as you move --> let go of control stick after the flick and press B to do a pivot ice block.

You can watch any of my matches to see it, I do it in all of them.

 

[r3d d09]

facile facile facile.

 

[phi1ny3]

Good to know, thanks Hylian

 

[J4pu]

Thanks for the info on pivot desync
I'm honestly not sure what I changed about how I do it, but now I get it wayyyyyyyy more consistently

 

[r3d d09]

maybe it's subconscious

 

[Insetick]

A load of new videos of Kakera (a beast Japanese IC) are up on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/ssbbmania1

How does he do the pivot desync that lets Nana attack first? He does it all the time: Popo shields for a moment and Nana starts a blizzard.

Also, what do you think of this Japanese IC player? I think Japan is catching up with our metagame very well.

 

[theunabletable]

^Japan looks okay (doesn't look as good as the US, though...), but one thing is for sure.

Kakera is ****ing SEXY
I like how he uses the Lain tag XD

I have a question... Why is it so god **** hard to Fthrow CG MK? Like for instance I can consistently 0-death Kirby (who should be practically the same as MK) with Fthrows (and can do the Fthrow CG on the entire cast consistently), but can't do it AT ALL to MK (and Lucas...). Why is that?

 

[J4pu]

lucas is retardedly hard cuz he flies off at such an upward angle.
MK isn't as hard, but I started learning all my CGs against MK and then transitioned to other characters so maybe that's why i dont notice it.
but yeah, stupid lucas

Kakera's desync is really just the Dash dance desync where you Dash dance once then at the end of the dash animation you input an attack for popo
it's just instead of an attack he inputs shield>shield drop really quick and inputs something for nana as soon as he lets go of shield

Random statement:
I can either bthrow/Dthrow CG (against MK) well or pivot desync well
it seems I can't do both consistently for some reason, when I can pivot desync my bthrow > nana regrab is god awful and vice versa.
My hands must get set on a certain rhythm or something, so I need to train them to recognize that they are in fact 2 separate things

 

[Rubberbandman]

^Japan looks okay (doesn't look as good as the US, though...), but one thing is for sure.

Kakera is ****ing SEXY
I like how he uses the Lain tag XD

I have a question... Why is it so god **** hard to Fthrow CG MK? Like for instance I can consistently 0-death Kirby (who should be practically the same as MK) with Fthrows (and can do the Fthrow CG on the entire cast consistently), but can't do it AT ALL to MK (and Lucas...). Why is that?

B-throw with popo and d-throw with nana. Once you get used to it, you'll see its just a problem to overcome, and nothing of a real major concern. Because I felt the same way in January.

Lucas' throw however is ********, its like he is in his own zone that is not quite mid-weight, and not quite light-weight.

Random statement:
I can either bthrow/Dthrow CG (against MK) well or pivot desync well
it seems I can't do both consistently for some reason, when I can pivot desync my bthrow > nana regrab is god awful and vice versa.
My hands must get set on a certain rhythm or something, so I need to train them to recognize that they are in fact 2 separate things

Yeah, I've been conditioning my hands lately and going for more desynchs. I usually have to make the Y button my grab button because I wear my index finger out.

 

[EverAlert]

fthrow mk should be exactly the same as kirby, they have exactly the same timing and hurtbox. it's just a mental barrier you need to overcome. bthrow dthrow is sexier for mk anyway.

 

[r3d d09]

i agree with the aussi man

 

[J4pu]

So, i figured out what it was
I have 2 silver controllers
I use one of them like 90% of the time because it's always plugged into the P4 slot which I always just naturally go for. Apparently the Astick of this controller is a bit loose, so just flicking it fails to get it back to neutral quick enough. But I use this one so much that the CG timing I had down was a bit off for a normal Astick when I was using the other controller and could "magically" pivot desync.

So yeah, silly me. Luckily it didn't take too long to get the CG timing down with the other controller.

 

[theunabletable]

fthrow mk should be exactly the same as kirby, they have exactly the same timing and hurtbox. it's just a mental barrier you need to overcome.

I know it SHOULD be, but there is seriously something up with it...

When I can go into training and 0-death Kirby 3 times in a row without warm up using nothing but Fthrow, then try on MK and can't pull off a single Fthrow CG, it feels like there's something wrong. Maybe it is a mental block, but... I just have trouble believing that a mental block is stopping me from doing the CG (like, I mean, I can't do the Fthrow CG ONCE on MK...) that I can do to the entire cast...

B-throw with popo and d-throw with nana. Once you get used to it, you'll see its just a problem to overcome, and nothing of a real major concern. Because I felt the same way in January.

I can do the Bthrow>Dthrow CG, just not nearly as consistently as the Fthrow CG. The main problem I have is trying to hold the grab button just long enough so that Nana shields and comes back to me. I can do it, just focusing extra on holding that grab button just a tiny bit longer than I normally would sometimes causes me to mess up...

 

[EverAlert]

There is nothing up with it. They ARE exactly the same; "should" was not meant literally.

If you can do it perfectly to everyone except MK, that definitely sounds like a mental barrier. MK has no special abilities or properties once we've grabbed him.

 

[Smoom77]

Meta Knight 0.904
Kirby 0.899

From the weight list.

.005 difference, lol.

 

[J4pu]

fthrow CG on Lucas is a ***** though

 

[toobusytocare]

fthrow is also hard on ganon...

at least for me...

i can fthrow CG everyone else lol


but i dont really worry about it because vs ganon i'd just go wario where i can do that CG

 

[Rubberbandman]

I dont even f-throw ganon, I just hobble him. I hobble all heavies. Even Mr.YoucanonlyDthrowhobbleme, Bowser.

 

[toobusytocare]

i dont hobble anyone, but i might start hobbling snake...

and i guess ganon too lol

 

[00-Zero]

You guys should get chain grabbing heavies with back throws. It's not hard to get the timing down with some time in training. And then catching a buffered throw after it is a cake walk once you get the back throw timing down.

 

[Smoom77]

With my hard, bthrows on heavies are IMPOSSIBLE. I spent an hour just trying to relearn it (i had bthrow>dthrow on snake down before) and it never came. Nana always dash grabbed and ran off...