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Data General Match-Up Discussion Thread (ask about matchups here!)

Ludiloco

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In neutral, the Mario Bros. are pretty difficult. Off stage, they are a cakewalk. For that reason I really don't consider them that bad of matchups for the King. I'd say 45:55 Mario Bros, definitely nothing like Villager where they are a nightmare to edge guard as well as in neutral.

Maybe I just haven't played a good luigi yet then.
A Luigi in neutral is an absolute terror for Deeds. Fireballs clank with or cancel everything we can do to try to space him, and if you can't space him he's going to get in for grabs. As someone who has played a LOT of Luigi in smash 4, one grab against a heavy is so much damage. D-throw, fair, fair, ff two jabs into another grab, fair, fair... 50-70% is to be expected. Not even Mario is as efficient at racking up huge combos on heavies as Luigi is.
 
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Muskrat Catcher

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I guess I must have never faced an intelligent sonic. I knew there had to be a reason why so many people have trouble with him.
I have now faced a few intelligent sonics. . . I have never hated that hedgehog as much as I do now. I used to think that no character could completely shut out dedede, but a skilled sonic is his worst nightmare.
 

CHOMPY

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@ shrooby shrooby Shall we do a Pit vs. King DeDeDe (5 on 5) Crew Battle to be able to determine what the outcome of the matchup is? The more people that get involved the crew battle, the more input we can gather from different players experience on the matchup. After all, each player has a different style on how they play with their characters. By the end of the crew battles, we can discuss on how we truly feel about the matchup.
 
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shrooby

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@ shrooby shrooby Shall we do a Pit vs. King DeDeDe (5 on 5) Crew Battle to be able to determine what the outcome of the matchup is? The more people that get involved the crew battle, the more input we can gather from different players experience on the matchup. After all, each player has a different style on how they play with their characters. By the end of the crew battles, we can discuss on how we truly feel about the matchup.
Funnily, I just got done fighting a pretty good Pit.
And I was typing something up in your thread just now. :laugh:
I'd love to do that if we can gather enough players.
 
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atomicblast360

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I need help on the Rosalina match up, I got into grand finals on an online tournament and had to fight an Extremely good Rosalina, I could barely touch her, I didn't get 2 stocked, but she bopped me, I even switched to my secondary diddy the second match and did bad, I need some help with how do beat her with at least Dedede
 

KeithTheGeek

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The only thing I can really say is that we have to play even more patiently than usual around Rosaluma. It sucks but we have to poke and prod at her from a distance, try to get in when she makes a mistake with her spacing...don't be afraid to hit the Luma, but also don't be afraid to outright ignore luma and go for Rosalina when they're split up. You have to pick your battles with these two, and she's going to play a lot more defensively once you do get rid of the Luma.

I can't really say it's in our favor but I do think it's winnable, just be prepared to space perfectly and patiently.
 

Ludiloco

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Pretty much if you go in while Luma is around, you get bopped.

You just have to space her out. There's not much she can use to touch us at mid-range, especially since most good players will rarely separate themselves from Luma. Run away and pivot f-tilt if she tries to follow you, use your deceiving jab range to poke at Luma until it dies or falls off the stage, then go in and go for grabs. If you start getting juggled do NOT go for trade damage, just float away and go for the ledge. Rosalina specializes in keeping us in the air with her disjointed aerial hitboxes.

Also, put your Gordos away. I'm pretty sure her jab sends it back even without Luma, and if she feels unsafe going for jab she can just use gravity on it.
 

Muskrat Catcher

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I have never had trouble with rosalinas, but that is only because I have never found one that protected luma. It is almost too easy to get rid of it when it is not by rosalina's side. Although, I can assume that generally it wouldn't be wise to approach, let rosa come to you, and refrain from using grabs while luma is around, unless you make it quick. I also agree with the above post concerning gordos and the air game. Once you do get your mallet on her though, rosalina gets KO'd quickly because she is so light, and she has few KO options on the ground against a character as heavy as dedede, but she's good at getting many small hits that eventually lead to your doom.

On the topic of Pit, I like that matchup. He is light, which is a huge plus, and you have an even better air game than him since you have more jumps and a safer recovery. Also, he only has one projectile, which is a good one, but it cannot be spammed so that it walls your approach. Although this fight is by no means one-sided. Pit has many moves that attack multiple times, bad because it takes some time before you can tell when they are finished, but once you know the playstyle the pit has, you can punish pretty easily. Also, his side B is annoying since it has super armor, but if you dodge or block it, it is easily punished. For gordos, they are great to use when he is close to you or in the air, but not from a distance since he can shoot them with his arrows. Overall, I say dedede wins 70% of the time against pit.
 

Ludiloco

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You definitely don't want to get in the habit of blocking the forward special from Pit, that thing breaks shields like crazy.
 

Aki

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What do you guys think about the matchup against Bowser? I feel like Dedede has a bit of an advantage in neutral due to range but Bowser can close the gap pretty fast and his moves come out quicker. And because Bowser is the heaviest it's not as easy to knock him out. Recently I noticed how useful Inhale is in this matchup, that might help in the future. It's relatively safe to use it on him while landing and gets him off of you and in position for a followup. In the air DDD definitely has the upper hand but it's difficult to get Bowser there.
 

Ludiloco

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What do you guys think about the matchup against Bowser? I feel like Dedede has a bit of an advantage in neutral due to range but Bowser can close the gap pretty fast and his moves come out quicker. And because Bowser is the heaviest it's not as easy to knock him out. Recently I noticed how useful Inhale is in this matchup, that might help in the future. It's relatively safe to use it on him while landing and gets him off of you and in position for a followup. In the air DDD definitely has the upper hand but it's difficult to get Bowser there.
I love love love the D3 Bowser matchup. You are exactly right in your analysis, inhale is super useful and gordos are very good at mid range. Bowser can keep us on the ledge, but cannot fully edge guard us without a big mistake from the D3 player. Something else to note is that up air is completely safe to throw out against Bowser. It out-prioritizes Bowser Bomb and his down air, meaning Bowser's only option is to air dodge. For this reason I honestly opt against any other combo besides down throw up air against him, just because having Bowser above you is so beneficial.

The only things we really need to watch out for/cannot punish are the Koopa Klaw and his jabs. Be careful of shielding too much as well, a well placed Bowser Bomb or forward smash can easily break it. Other than that, it's a pretty fun matchup as Bowser really struggles to get in against the hammer.
 

Aki

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Bowser can keep us on the ledge, but cannot fully edge guard us without a big mistake from the D3 player.
This is what bothers me the most. I have a hard time getting back on stage after I get knocked off, especially when there are no platforms nearby.
 

Muskrat Catcher

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What do you guys think about the matchup against Bowser?
I honestly think that bowser is one of dedede's best matchups. Dedede has so many attacks that trump bowser's strategies, but there are quite a few ways he can gain the upper hand if you don't know the character. For instance, I'm pretty sure his up smash has super armor or invincibility or something because if he gets under a super dedede jump or catches a n-air fast fall, he can hit you hard pretty easily. Also, his back air HURTS! As well as his down-B and side smashes, but basically any attack he does is strong, but luckily it is so hard for him to get to you. side tilt, down tilt, inhale, and gordos, if used wisely, can stop him cold on the ground. In the air, dedede's u-air intercepts bowser bomb and his d-air, and all of your aerials outrange his, even if some of his outspeed yours. I would recommend always challenging him in the air, and trying not to let him land, because you can rack up so much damage that way. Also, gordos are the biggest advantage you have over bowser in general, so use them! I really like this matchup. Too bad I rarely ever face good bowsers online.

*note: I know this response is kinda similar to ludiloco's response, but I swear to you I typed this before he responded, but I just found out that I never posted it, so I figured I might as well still post it, it might be helpful.
 

Muskrat Catcher

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Hi Dedede mains, the Greninja boards are going to discuss the MU against the royal penguin, so it would be great to hear input from the other perspective
Greninja is a very interesting matchup in my opinion, because I have faced greninjas with a vast range of different strategies. Some are great against deeds, and some get destroyed, even if they are obviously skilled players. However, one big thing that makes the greninja matchup favorable to dedede in my opinion is that greninja struggles against gordos (when used wisely, not spammed). A fully charged water shuriken can't reflect them, (although small ones can), so if greninja starts charging a shuriken, I would jump and throw a gordo. The frog almost always continues to fully charge it, allowing both dedede and the gordo to assault him. Another thing many greninjas will do once a gordo is chucked is try to shadow sneak past it, which is a bad move when we are expecting it. Another thing that dedede has over geninja is that greninja is easy to edge guard, and easy to get edge guarded by. Greninja's recovery can be predictable, and he is very vunerable to a meteor or a gordo while recovering. Also, greninja's best edge guard option, pushing with hydro pump, doesn't work too well against dedede's amazing recovery, and I have never been pushed off the top by a hydro pump either due to Dedede's weight. Where greninja gets challenging is when he starts using his speed to poke at you a lot. His best KO tool against DDD is probably shadow sneak, if used wisely. Otherwise, however, he doesn't have to many KO options, and is pretty light himself, something dededes love.

My final opinion is that the matchup is dedede wins about 65:35

*edit: I just went over to the greninja boards to see what they said about this MU, and I was surprised to see that it was mostly even or advantage to greninja. I don't agree. Dedede doesn't HAVE to approach due to water shurikens. He can just stand near the edge of the water shuriken range, and wait, maybe throw out a gordo when the time is right, and dedede can still approach well through the air in my opinion
 
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Ludiloco

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Sounds like you've played some pretty bad Greninjas. Go watch aMSa play and watch what he does.

The matchup is 50:50 or maybe even a slight advantage to Greninja. Greninja struggles to break the space we can create at mid-range with jabs and f-tilts, but if he gets in it's a lot of pain for D3.
 
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toadster101

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I've been struggling against R.O.B. recently. The gyro is ridiculous, and it's difficult to DI away from the down throw -> up air followup at high percentages. His other attacks kinda suck, but that doesn't really matter when the gyro + laser can rack up so much residual damage. Maybe I was just playing poorly, but I don't remember the matchup being this bad.
 

Aki

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I've been struggling against R.O.B. recently. The gyro is ridiculous, and it's difficult to DI away from the down throw -> up air followup at high percentages. His other attacks kinda suck, but that doesn't really matter when the gyro + laser can rack up so much residual damage. Maybe I was just playing poorly, but I don't remember the matchup being this bad.
I actually played a few sets against a R.O.B. yesterday on Wii U, I was really struggling to get in. I bought my Wii U 2 days ago and haven't played a lot yet so I'm still getting used to the controller and stages so I might not be correct with everything.
First, his gyro and laser could keep me away really well. He used the gyro frequently, charged and uncharged and then followed it up with a laser. If I blocked both with my shield, the gyro was off cooldown again. This racked up so much damage because you just can't power shield everything.
Also I'm pretty sure there is a way to DI the robot Hoo Haa, I just wasn't able to do it reliably because I still got caught by the up air a couple of times. I think you just have to DI to the side though.
Gordos aren't really helpful in this matchup either, if the ROB can react in time and reflect them with his side B you're lucky if you survive the hit (I didn't, that stuff hurts).
However, what Dedede can do, is fight in the air. ROB has trouble getting back to the stage quickly when you launch him because his recovery is slow and he is floaty. This should be exploited. Also when you launch him upwards with down throw up air you should keep up the pressure afterwards.
I think knowing how to deal with the gyro is the most important part about this matchup. Because you can pick it up and throw it back at him it opens up more options for you. Also keep in mind that dtilt blocks it, if it's uncharged it will disappear and if it's fully charged it will keep spinning where you hit it. And Dedede's dash attack is really slow so you will probably get punished if you try to pick up the gyro while dashing if ROB is close.
 

KeithTheGeek

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Don't block the gyro. It disappears immediately on hitting shield and just gives ROB his gyro back instantly. Try to dodge the gyro, or catch it. It's one of ROB's main forms of pressure and if you can keep your grip on it, you can get in close to ROB. Robo Hoo Hah is practically guaranteed at low percents, I find people tend to have an easier time escaping at higher percents or if they have a smaller/lighter build. ROB has to wait a few seconds before laser refreshes, as well, so the main thing is that you want to get in once he's used his projectiles.

I like to create space (as a ROB player, not as a Dedede) using his forward smash, and poke people who get up close using his tilts. ROB's nair is also really good to help put up a wall around him, and his side b is a great punish tool for badly spaced attacks. If ROB for whatever reason throws it out in neutral though just block the side b, if he comes in and hits your shield with it you get a free punish, and if he backs away he has to deal with the move's cool down.

As far as Dedede's end of the match up goes...it's been a while since I've faced a ROB as Dedede, but my friend's ROB (who isn't much of a competitive Smash player admittedly) could give me a lot of trouble. If I had to guess, you want to try to keep within range for your ftilt, but not close enough where he can grab you or poke you. If ROB gets you out of his space he'll want to hit you with his projectiles, which unfortunately Dedede has a fair bit of trouble with. Gyro is a really powerful tool, so if you can get your hands on it USE it. You can use it to help yourself approach ROB, or if you get him off the stage you can use it to help control space as long as the Gyro still spins. I like z-dropping the gyro over the ledge, both as ROB and against ROB, which can cover some of their options off the ledge.

On Greninja, the matchup feels pretty even to me. Maybe a slight advantage in his favor thanks to his superior speed, but I never felt like it was impossible to win against a Greninja. At the very least they make you think. I agree with the above, getting Greninja offstage allows Dedede to shine in the matchup, but just know he can actually mixup his recovery options.
 

shrooby

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In the next week or two/three, I think I'm gonna start up the character-specific match-up discussion.
I say in a week or two/three 'cause I'm nearing the end of my academic quarter (ugh, finals), so I don't want to start it up and then not have much time for it.
In the mean time, why don't you guys give me some preliminary lists of which characters to go through when?
I figure we should first talk about Diddy and Sheik first given their prevalence, then move onto other known, difficult match-ups after that.
Other than that, I'm really all ears! Gimme some feedback!

Need Mario advice
It's all about abusing your superior range. And making the most when he's recovering off-stage. Mario's relatively easy to gimp.
We also got him beat in the air with our great range. Just don't get too cocky with that or you'll get punished big time.
It's an annoying match-up, for sure. One of my least favorites, personally. Mario's pretty good a dealing with Gordo, plus he makes pure combo fodder out of poor, girth-y Dedede.
And Fireballs... Gah, they're surprisingly annoying.
Patience is really a virtue; work your way in slowly but surely. Be very conscious of keeping him out of range with jabs and ftilts.
 

KeithTheGeek

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I would probably feel better about Mario if I've had experience with him on any stage besides FD. Unfortunately the only time I've *played* against one has been on FD, and without fail (even outside of For Glory) they tend to camp the edge of the stage and spam fireballs, forcing Dedede in a really uncomfortable position simply because of the arc they travel in. We don't have many moves that can stuff them out (ftilt would be godly for this if it weren't for its transcendent priority!) and our approach is just as slow in the air. Then once they actually do bother to work their way in, it's difficult to get him off of you just because of how heavy you are. Maybe other people feel differently but I personally think it's one of D3's worst match-ups.

I'm just gonna mention a few things I noticed about Wii Fit Trainer also. Not to many people play as her/him, but I got to play a match against one last night in friendlies and watched another one in action in tourney. My first stock was taken with me barely having left a scratch on her, but I was able to adapt and almost brought it back...think I got WFT down to around 60 or 70% on her second stock when she had taken my first stock at just 20% on her first one. But anyways...

Her dthrow sends behind her, and her dsmash seems to hit at this really low horizontal angle. The soccer ball she hits can bounce off the stage at different angles based on where she hits it from. And that's really all that stuck out to me. The match up felt like it was in Dedede's favor, I just had 0 experience playing against WFT so I was basically learning as I was playing it. The guy I was playing with switched off to Palutena the next game though, but I did take that match. The only thing important I took away from the Palutena match is that we need to be careful around moving platforms. If Dedede gets caught in landing lag on a platform, she's able to charge an up smash and catch him as the platform moves above her if the player spaces her correctly. Otherwise I didn't really have any trouble with Palutena, and most of the Palutena's I have played generally left me thinking the matchup was in Dedede's favor.
 

BBC7

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Any opinions on Game & Watch? Dedede is one of my most dreaded match-ups, 2 D-Throw -> Bair combos and we're already at kill percent, not to mention that Gordo is a pain to deal with and airdodging it will only result in getting hit by a U-Air which is not fun.
 

shrooby

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I'm still figuring through specifics of how we'll go about it, but, for now, here's a proposed order for how we'll go through the match-ups.

:4diddy::4sheik::rosalina::4zss::4sonic::4falcon::4villager::4pikachu::4yoshi::4luigi::4mario::4drmario::4fox::4lucario::4shulk::4rob::4ness::4olimar::4robinm::4greninja::4duckhunt::4link::4peach::4pacman::4megaman::4pit::4darkpit::4tlink::4falco::4samus::4bowserjr::4jigglypuff::4palutena::4myfriends::4bowser::4ganondorf::4charizard::4dk::4wario::4metaknight::4littlemac::4marth::4lucina::4kirby::4wiifit::4zelda::4gaw::4miigun::4miibrawl::4miisword::4dedede:

Note that, outside the first ten or so, there isn't really much order or logic, so feel free to give your own list in order of how much you think each character is a threat/how important it will be to know the match-up. I'll try to take as much into account as I can before we get rolling in a few weeks.
 

TMJ_Jack

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I think Mega Man should be a higher priority on your list, @ shrooby shrooby . Mediocre Mega Mans aren't awful to face, but a good one can totally shut us down without us being able to do anything about it.
 

Jdawg26

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I think Mega Man should be a higher priority on your list, @ shrooby shrooby . Mediocre Mega Mans aren't awful to face, but a good one can totally shut us down without us being able to do anything about it.
Agreed. Tbh I'd put him after Fox considering that they're popping up more and more these days. Other than that it's a good list, I'm really looking forward to discussing these with you guys.
 

shrooby

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Sounds like a plan!
The final list will have Mega Man higher up, then.
 

MioTinto

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When playing as D3, I've been having some issues facing Wario, especially with his damn bike. Do you guys have any tips on how to counter him?
 

shrooby

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Massive change of plans!
I'm gonna be starting up match-up discussion...tomorrow!

The order will be what I posted above, but Mega Man will be moved substantially to between Fox and Lucario.
If anyone has any further objections to that listing, bring it up now.
Course, I'm willing to make changes during if enough users think it should happen. This is meant to be for the community's benefit, after all.

We'll, of course, be starting with Diddy "Hoo Haa" Kong. For a few reasons I've decided to extend this particular match-up to a two week long discussion. (And I'm debating whether to do that with Sheik as well.) Otherwise, other match-ups will be discussed for a week before an official rating is given
Customs should be taken into account for match-ups where they can potentially make a huge difference. (Ex. Mega Man with customs is much more potent than without.)

When playing as D3, I've been having some issues facing Wario, especially with his damn bike. Do you guys have any tips on how to counter him?
Can't really say much due to my lack of experience against Wario.
But I'm going to take a guess and say f-tilt will get Wario off his bike no problem. Along with other moves, but that seems the most straight forward.
 
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Soul Train

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Wrote up a bit on the Luigi matchup topic that was posted earlier, but it's (rightly) locked now so I'm posting here.

D3 is at a slight disadvantage with a good Luigi - who has fast, lingering attacks to reflect Gordo, a great neutral projectile, and a great combo game. But you have much greater aerial mobility, better trap game, disjointed hitboxes, and your own great combo game to boot. If you can get him off/above-stage, you have a sudden massive advantage. Abuse it.

So stageguarding is key. Yes, stageguarding - when Luigi's falling down and airdodging a lot as they are wont to do, you need to be using Gordo to control the next few seconds of the match. Use a UGordo (up tilted Gordo) or DGordo to control space and limit his landing options. Then react to his landing decisions - he WILL be open as soon as he lands. Luigi should never have an easy time getting back to stage against D3 - NO ONE should, not with good Gordo traps.

Yep, Luigi is incredibly good at comboing people, but in his defense D3 actually is pretty good at escaping combos (with good DI) - so it becomes a reading tossup. You have five jumps; use them with unexpected DI to get out. Up and away is usually best, but sometimes DI-ing to end up OVER his head post-dthrow works well too. Mash that jump, D3 should never take 60% from one combo.

Practice your techs. In this match, missing them at close range is bad.
Bait his spinning DownB; it's very punishable.

Rangewise, Luigi has two strong threat zones against D3: fireball and Ftilt distance. Fireball is Luigi's neutral game tool, and Gordo is yours - get good at arcing jump Gordo/DGordos over Fireball range and onto Luigi/nearby to scare him. You need to be on top of your Gordo Volley game too - practice the reflecting.

Do NOT throw Gordos straight at him in Neutral (see below).


Threw together a quick ground threat range for Luigi. Should help visualize what I'm talking about. Stay in the green, get out of the red. Pink is the fireball range where you can safely shield/jump over without Luigi punishing.


Very winnable (edit: fixed images not uploading.)
 
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Dee-SmashinBoss

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I need help on the Rosalina match up, I got into grand finals on an online tournament and had to fight an Extremely good Rosalina, I could barely touch her, I didn't get 2 stocked, but she bopped me, I even switched to my secondary diddy the second match and did bad, I need some help with how do beat her with at least Dedede
Wait a tournament online? How? When? Where?
I'm still figuring through specifics of how we'll go about it, but, for now, here's a proposed order for how we'll go through the match-ups.

:4diddy::4sheik::rosalina::4zss::4sonic::4falcon::4villager::4pikachu::4yoshi::4luigi::4mario::4drmario::4fox::4lucario::4shulk::4rob::4ness::4olimar::4robinm::4greninja::4duckhunt::4link::4peach::4pacman::4megaman::4pit::4darkpit::4tlink::4falco::4samus::4bowserjr::4jigglypuff::4palutena::4myfriends::4bowser::4ganondorf::4charizard::4dk::4wario::4metaknight::4littlemac::4marth::4lucina::4kirby::4wiifit::4zelda::4gaw::4miigun::4miibrawl::4miisword::4dedede:

Note that, outside the first ten or so, there isn't really much order or logic, so feel free to give your own list in order of how much you think each character is a threat/how important it will be to know the match-up. I'll try to take as much into account as I can before we get rolling in a few weeks.
Peach and Zelda should be significantly higher, trust me, they can be a threat, Peach does have those turnips which, I am now thinking may be her best option for taking out those Gordos.
Maybe we should think about the next 5 characters after top 10 that may be a threat to DDD before we worry about more characters, just to not get confused?
Maybe like this?(In school so don't have much time to think about this.)
:4diddy::4sheik::rosalina::4zss::4sonic::4falcon::4villager::4pikachu::4yoshi::4luigi::4palutena::4peach::4mario::4falco::4lucina:)
I don't know just a though, it would seem this characters could be some noticeable threats such as Falco's laser possibly making Gordon's a lot less effective and his reflector?
Lucian/Marth because they space weall and have fast disjointed attacks?
Peach because of her edge guards and turnips possibly.
Paletanu because of her smashes, and other moves,.
 

Soul Train

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:4sonic::4yoshi::4wario::4samus: need to be higher. Those in particular have solid tools to shut a lot of D3's options down. Wario and Samus are both very underutilized right now, but I've fought some people that make them look incredible. Especially against D3.
I propose:

:4diddy::rosalina::4yoshi::4zss::4sonic::4villager::4pikachu::4samus::4duckhunt::4megaman::4ness::4wario:

Just my 2 cents.
 

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Wait a tournament online? How? When? Where?

Peach and Zelda should be significantly higher, trust me, they can be a threat, Peach does have those turnips which, I am now thinking may be her best option for taking out those Gordos.
Maybe we should think about the next 5 characters after top 10 that may be a threat to DDD before we worry about more characters, just to not get confused?
Maybe like this?(In school so don't have much time to think about this.)
:4diddy::4sheik::rosalina::4zss::4sonic::4falcon::4villager::4pikachu::4yoshi::4luigi::4palutena::4peach::4mario::4falco::4lucina:)
I don't know just a though, it would seem this characters could be some noticeable threats such as Falco's laser possibly making Gordon's a lot less effective and his reflector?
Lucian/Marth because they space weall and have fast disjointed attacks?
Peach because of her edge guards and turnips possibly.
Paletanu because of her smashes, and other moves,.
Definitely not moving Marth/Lucina up that far.
Dedede did relatively well against Marth in Brawl and still does.
We completely outrange Marth with ftilt. Even Shieldbreaker could only hope to trade with it. Meaning you should be expecting an approach from the air.
If an aerial gets perfect shielded, if an aerial is poorly spaced, we have the range to punish.
That and Marth can have difficulty reflecting Gordo in tight situations without really committing to something that can get punished. And Marth's straightforward recovery leaves him open to be gimped.
All those things apply to Lucina.
And I don't really think either of them are particularly common, either.

Can't so I know much about Falco, but he doesn't seem like he would be that much of a problem.
Unlike in Brawl, using his Blaster actually requires a bit of commitment. Once we get in, we outrange him.

I'm waiting to see how much more Palutena's customs develope. If anything, that's why she would move up. Until then, she isn't that common, and she isn't that much of a problem without customs. Her smashes are potent but very telegraphed.

:4sonic::4yoshi::4wario::4samus: need to be higher. Those in particular have solid tools to shut a lot of D3's options down. Wario and Samus are both very underutilized right now, but I've fought some people that make them look incredible. Especially against D3.
I propose:

:4diddy::rosalina::4yoshi::4zss::4sonic::4villager::4pikachu::4samus::4duckhunt::4megaman::4ness::4wario:

Just my 2 cents.
>
  • The current schedule is not that set-in-stone. If you would like a change in the schedule, please PM (start a conversation) with me privately and tell me what you'd like changed and why. Note, however, that the next three characters after the one being discussed at the time cannot be altered. (Ex. Since we're currently discussing Diddy Kong, the order of the next three characters there now, Sheik, Rosalina and Zero Suit Samus, will not be changed.) So be sure to bring up any potential changes in advance.
Pay attention to the bold, please.
At most right now, I'll potentially move Yoshi (or anyone) to between Zero Suit and Sonic.
I wanted to have this one rule for organizational purposes, and just so I'm not trying to figure stuff out the Sunday I should be starting up the next discussion.
If I make an exception for any character, then all bets are off and I might as well have never said the rule in the first place.

I hope Sheik not being in that list is a typo.

Keep in mind that being a "sleeper threat" is not enough to move a character that high, I think.
The important thing to remember is that the schedule is, in essence, ranking how important it is to know each match-up. A match-up being perceived as good or bad is only part of that. It also depends on how common a character is. How likely it is that you'll need to know the match-up in the first place. That's the real reason Diddy and Sheik should be the first priorities.
That's not to say being actual threats shouldn't be taken into account, but it isn't the main priority. The actual amount of people using that character, threat or not, should also be considered.
So a character will not be moved as far as you've moved Wario up for that reason alone. If Wario stops being underdeveloped and many people start using him, then he can move up that high if the match-up still proves tough. ('Cause you may have just had trouble due to unfamiliarity with the character in general.) Same for Samus.
That said, I'm not the most knowing player in the world. I don't really know how the characters should be ranked for our purposes. If more people want to back you up, then I'm all ears.

Now, Yoshi is a threat and is pretty common at that, so let's talk about that. I've honestly been debating bringing him up more. Perhaps putting him between Sonic and Captain Falcon.
If more people think it should happen, then I'll make it so.
 
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D

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Just thought I'd finally chime in over here:

Pretty sure @ shrooby shrooby has made Dedede my least favorite character to fight period.

The Fat Grabby Penguin is the bane of my existence.

Pretty sure he has a favorable matchup against :4link:.

Damn UAIR. :mad088:
 

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It's because Link has to commit to damn near every projectile he throws, basically. If he didn't have to do that, it'd be a helluva lot harder IMO.

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