Dar4
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2015
- Messages
- 140
Agreed that we have a lot to learn still with how to deal with her. But we know enough about her already to say for sure that having a huge hurtbox against her is a major disadvantage as she has some of the best (if not the best) combos in the game, and they'll be much easier for her to perform because of that. Avoiding Bayo's combo game is key to beating her, and D3 can't do that.While I agree it's a bad matchup, comparing it to ZSS (or worse) is just unrealistic. Bayo is a new character, and we're all still learning how to punish what seem like her high-priority, safe attacks. But just like when you fight a good Dhalsim in Street Fighter, matchup experience completely shifts everything.
ZSS's "laggy grab" is often not a liability against the slow D3, and even when it is, the risk is justified by its the crazy followup potential. In contrast Bayo has terrible grab range, no throw followups, and horrendous kill power from throw. This means D3 can shield far more safely in neutral, which is huge for a character that relies on shield a lot already.
ZSS/Bayo actually have some very similar aerial attacks and landing lag on those attacks, so it's pretty equal there.
However the ground is where things really separate. Bayo is almost entirely unsafe on the ground, and very punishable with smart spacing/shielding. ZSS has a 1 frame jab, and a 6 frame ftilt. Both mostly safe and usable in mixups. In contrast, Bayo has a 9 frame jab. Nine frames. That is absolutely horrendous, second only to D3's barely worse 10-frame jab (except D3's is disjointed with far better range). Her fastest move there is Dtilt at 7 frames, which is a good combo starter but also unsafe and completely outranged by D3's Jab/Ftilt. Her SideB approach lets her get in - but unlike Sonic it's massively unsafe. With his 6-frame Dtilt, that means Dedede actually has faster ground frame data than someone else in this game for once. The fact is, Nintendo pretty blatantly balanced Bayo's strengths by making her struggle against shields, have bad ground frame data, and be stupid light. I'm not saying she's bad whatsoever - I'm saying people have yet to optimize their play against these unqiue weaknesses.
Yes Witch Time is a thing, and it's good. But it doesn't break the character, and it is baitable. One good point: one of Bayo's best killing moves is Usmash, and D3 dies the latest out of everyone in the cast off the top.
This isn't 70:30. There is seriously no comparison against characters like ZSS and Sonic in how they mathematically and practically get to harass D3 for free. It might not even be 60:40, but only time will tell.
I respect your opinion on these boards but have you played a great Bayonetta player? Not a decent one or OK one, but someone who has seriously labbed Bayo since her release and has a good grasp on optimizing her combo game. There's a world of difference. Honestly I'm not trying to be condescending with that comment, but I also would have agreed with most of what you're saying before I played a great bayo. I also thought Bayo was weak against shield and such but she's really not because her combo starter options are mostly really safe pokes and her risk/reward for landing any combo starter is though the roof. If you get hit by any of her combo starters in neutral, you're getting juggled and best case scenario taking solid percent. At worst you're getting zero to death'd.
Dedede is probably the easiest character to witch time as well because of how slow most of his moveset comes out.
As a Dedede co-main I'd have to say this looks like it might rival ZSS for Dedede's worst matchup. I will admit that I need more experience to learn optimal counterplay but it looks really bad from my perspective right now. I don't see it getting better than 70:30 honestly. Honestly I do think may be worse than ZSS/Sonic. I think Bayo can harass D3 even better because of her insanely favorable level of risk/reward on her combo starters. She can stay just outside D3's ftilt range, wait for D3 to commit to something, and throw out safe combo starters.
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