Official General Post-DLC Discussion [Closed]

[Amberloo]

Speaking of Sakurai's criteria, I don't think they can be blindly applied to Smash 4. We based a LOT of our Smash 4 predictions based the selection criteria used in Brawl, and we did terrible in predicting him.

I don't recall having a lot of personality. And Miis are literally blank slates.

He laid out the criteria for Brawl, where I don't think he followed it either. don’t have much of a personality to speak of.

Eh, I have to argue against Duck Hunt Dog and Toon Link, especially. If you don't think the latter has any personality, you need to pay more attention the next time you play Wind Waker. One reason (among many) that it's one of my favorite titles in the series is that they went the extra mile to make Link really expressive and make him more than just another iteration in the bloodline that's just there to save the day. And now that I think about it, I do think each Pokemon displays an appropriate personality for each of them. Pikachu is cute, charming and speedy, Charizard is intimidating and flexes a lot of strength behind most of its attacks, and Greninja is calm, cool and all his movements are really sleek; just to name a few examples.

 

[FalKoopa]

Ofc the masses are ignorant, I've been saying this since forever.

Didn't you watch the video I posted a couple days ago that made everyone here really upset?

That said, I'm not saying Isaac's lack of creativity really affects his chances as DLC, I listed him in my top 8 list as no. 3.

And Diddy and DHD both have plenty of personality. Especially compared to most vidya characters. If you want a good example, don't look any further than:

If we make Mario's personality the base from which other characters should be measured, then personality isn't going to affect any character's chances.

I suppose DHD is the OG video game troll. But what personality does Diddy have?

Eh, I have to argue against Duck Hunt Dog and Toon Link, especially. If you don't think the latter has any personality, you need to pay more attention the next time you play Wind Waker. One reason (among many) that it's one of my favorite titles in the series is that they went the extra mile to make Link really expressive and make him more than just another iteration in the bloodline that's just there to save the day. And now that I think about it, I do think each Pokemon displays an appropriate personality for each of them. Pikachu is cute, charming and speedy, Charizard is intimidating and flexes a lot of strength behind most of its attacks, and Greninja is calm, cool and all his movements are really sleek; just to name a few examples.

Fair enough. My point was moreso that he's also a silent hero.

Can't say about Pokémon though. Design, Personality and Appearance are overlapping characteristics.

I'd be extremely surprised if either made it in to be honest. If I'm being realistic, as much as I love K. Rool, he no longer has casual appeal because of his huge stretch of inactivity, and DLC has gotta sell to everyone. If we're looking at the characters we've got as DLC, especially the newcomers, they're huge icons, and the veterans were already immortalized by prior Smash games. Isaac is probably even worse off in that regard as Golden Sun never saw the kind of success that K. Rool's games did.

This is why I'm thinking we're getting at least 1 more 3rd Party. The Inklings are just about the only feasible 1st Party characters from a mass appeal standpoint.

I'm rather conflicted about who we'll see on Tuesday. On one hand, given the lack of any Nintendo newcomers in DLC, I think we should see at least one (Inklings/K. Rool/someone), but individually, I'm not confident in any Nintendo character except Wolf and Inklings.

 

[Kalimdori]

People are "calling me out" because they're defending the character they want. They've still all failed to present a compelling case for why Isaac would be "different enough" to justify inclusion to me.

You're only ignoring it, because it's absolutely true. And personality is absolutely a factor for Sakurai when selecting characters. You'll notice that most of the characters with bland personalities in Smash are characters who are basically icons of gaming, or at least in Ness' case, he was in Smash from the get-go.
http://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/09/26/sakurai-on-character-choices/

Ability wise, Isaac uses the same tropes as most other characters in his genre. Yes, they're not "exactly" the same as the other characters in Smash, but they're close enough for it to be a factor for why I want something that's entirely different. I'm talking the kind of different that Mario is to Duck Hunt Duo.

Side B then.

Why does the reason they're calling you out change anything? Doesn't change that they're right. And SEVERAL people have presented a compelling case for how he could be different enough, but for some reason you insist on seeing nothing past "He has sword and magic, that's it!" I'm assuming that's due to you not playing the game, I'll try to explain why you're wrong below.

I was ignoring personality because it ISN'T true, Isaac is only silent in the first Golden Sun, probably should have mentioned that in the first place. He has a personality, moreso then most characters in Smash currently.

And ability wise, he does use the same tropes as most other characters in his genre. Pretty much all of them actually. Where most characters are limited by specific, iconic abilities or weapons, Isaac is basically an open book of customization. He wouldn't even NEED to use a sword for gods sake.

Since you seem uneducated on what he can do, here is a list of just some of the things that he could draw from:

Psynergy: Isaac primarily uses Venus Psynergy (Earth Magic), though he can use all other Psynergy's as well (Wind, Fire, and Water). There are well over a hundred different abilities that you could base moves off of, Isaac could very easily by a solely Psynergy based character. The only other completely magic based character we have is Zelda, and there is more then enough to differentiate from her. I'll even bother making a whole moveset solely based on psynergy, it's really easy to do:

Spoiler

Jab combo: Douse, followed up by Frost - attacks quickly with two jets/whips/waves/whatever you wanna visualize of water, then freezes both and stabs them forward.

Forward Tilt: Fire - Creates a short, small explosion directly in front of Isaac

Down Tilt: Growth - Causes several thorny vines to grow out of the ground and lash out

Up Tilt: Gale - A current of wind that launches foes upward

Forward Smash: Avalanche - Boulders float around Isaac as he charges. Unleashing the attack causes the boulders to slam together in front of him

Down Smash: Glacier - Bubbles of water grow on either side of Isaac as he charges. Unleashing causes the bubbles to freeze and explode into shards

Up Smash: Lava Plume - The earth starts to smoke under Isaac while charging. Unleashing causes the lava to shoot out of the ground

Neutral Air: Whirlwind - Causes blades of wind to slash around Isaac

Forward Air: Sonic Slash - Creates a giant blade of wind in front of Isaac

Back Air: Supercool - Fire a small burst of ice shards behind Isaac

Down Air: Blast - Fires a concentrated blast of fire downward

Up Air: Bolt - Fires a small burst of electricity upwards

Grab: Move - Shoots out the giant hand everyone knows from Smash Bros to grab enemies. Pummel would simply squeeze the opponent ala Master Hand.

Up Throw: Froth - Traps the opponent in a bubble and sends them slowly drifting into the air. Slowly take damage as you "suffocate", until you break free

Forward Throw: Plasma - Fires a bolt of Plasma, shooting the opponent forward

Down Throw: Quake - Opponent is planted into the ground, then the earth juts upwards, sending the opponent flying

Back Throw: Nettle - Vines grow out of the ground and whiplash the the opponent backwards

Neutral Special: Earthquake - Strikes the ground. Nearby grounded enemies trip. If used Airborne it becomes Storm Ray, which momentarily stuns nearby airborne enemies

Side Special: Stone Spire - Charges up, then causes several stalactites to shoot up in a line in front of him. Airborne shoots out icicles

Up Special: Deluge - I'm not feeling inspired for this one, just steal Squirtles

Down Special: Bind - Tosses a small sphere of energy forward after a delay. If it hits, it prevents opponents from using Special moves for a few seconds

Dodges: Cloak - Hides in the shadows as he dodges and sidesteps.

Shield: Gaia - Encases himself with Earth

Final Smash: Call Demon - Use your imagination :D

Not gonna bother with taunts. I think that's everything, sorry if I missed something, I'm tired

I could make several completely different and unique movesets off of the psynergy alone. NOBODY who knows Golden Sun will take you seriously if you say there isn't enough to differentiate him, the complete opposite is true.

Summons: Isaac could be a summon based character, commanding various Djinn summons to do his bidding on the battlefield. Several psynergy abilities summon creatures as well that could be used.

Swordplay: Yes, Isaac has a sword. He can probably use that, if Sakurai wants to be boring. He also has arms and legs, he can probably kick and punch too.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

My guess is that they are going to confirm three more characters so we have a "Fighter Pack" like the bundle that's available now. If we're talking about characters in general, I'd say we're getting Snake or Wolf, K. Rool or Inkling, and Banjo-Kazooie or Rayman or Shantae or Goku. The reason I say Goku is because throughout the course of this game, he's been breaking the rules he set for the game:

He said that Namco Bandai wouldn't get any representation. We got

He said that no characters from other consoles will get the cut. We got

See a pattern here?

 

[Kalimdori]

My guess is that they are going to confirm three more characters so we have a "Fighter Pack" like the bundle that's available now. If we're talking about characters in general, I'd say we're getting Snake or Wolf, K. Rool or Inkling, and Banjo-Kazooie or Rayman or Shantae or Goku. The reason I say Goku is because throughout the course of this game, he's been breaking the rules he set for the game:

He said that Namco Bandai wouldn't get any representation. We got

He said that no characters from other consoles will get the cut. We got

See a pattern here?

No. I don't see a pattern. Because he said neither of those things

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Yeah, sorry. My little brother got on here again. But I do agree with him on everything except Goku.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

No. I don't see a pattern. Because he said neither of those things

The only pattern I see is that the community misreads every word Sakurai says.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

he Inklings are just about the only feasible 1st Party characters from a mass appeal standpoint.

Only? Toad and any popular and highly promoted Pokemon character disagrees with you.

 

[Kenith]

Speaking of Sakurai's criteria, I don't think they can be blindly applied to Smash 4. We based a LOT of our Smash 4 predictions based the selection criteria used in Brawl, and we did terrible in predicting him.

I don't recall having a lot of personality. And Miis are literally blank slates.

He laid out the criteria for Brawl, where I don't think he followed it either. don’t have much of a personality to speak of.

I don't agree with any of these except Mii Fighters, Greninja and Villager.
was called a "health nut" by Sakurai himself, and it shows.
...How does Bowser Jr. not have personality exactly?
Jovial and always has a smile.
The Dog is given a sort of lazy personality while the Duck is more serious.
The very reason Toon Link stands out is his expressiveness and personality. It defined the Wind Waker.
Has a never-give-up, competitive personality and positive outlook.
Ditto.

A lot of these are implied and never actually stated. This is because having personality simply means that the character emotes or otherwise seems like...well, a person.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

No. I don't see a pattern. Because he said neither of those things

This. All he said in regards to Namco-Bandai characters is that they would receive no priority, basically having to be judged by their own standards. Pac-Man, being legendary, made sense as a third-party character.

 

[TheAnvil]

I'm rather conflicted about who we'll see on Tuesday. On one hand, given the lack of any Nintendo newcomers in DLC, I think we should see at least one (Inklings/K. Rool/someone), but individually, I'm not confident in any Nintendo character except Wolf and Inklings.

I'm of the mindset that veteran DLC is done, and that Sakurai wants to concentrate on newcomers now. The comment he made when releasing Lucas and Roy about those two being particularly popular veterans from Melee and Brawl seemed like he decided to just bring one back from each game. And Mewtwo didn't factor into that because he's Mewtwo, and got in because he was Mewtwo and not because he was a veteran. I don't think Sakurai even made mention of Mewtwo's veteran status, either.

 

[Deleted member]

And now we're using the personality argument?

Here's the thing, it's literarily impossible to have a character with no personality whatsoever.

Even Mario and Link have some form of personality, because if they didn't, they wouldn't even bother going on an adventure. In fact, they wouldn't even bother to react to like any little thing like wincing from pain to the joy of eating.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enneagram_of_Personality

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Jung

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers–Briggs_Type_Indicator


It's impossible for a human to have no personality, correct.

However, it is possible for a character to be written as a blank slate with no personality feature or information whatsoever.

This is what you call "a poorly written character."

Likes and dislikes =/= personality

 

[TheAnvil]

Only? Toad and any popular and highly promoted Pokemon character disagrees with you.

Toad arguably already has an in-game role, unless you're referring to Captain Toad. Mario and Pokemon characters are kind of in a grey area, there are so many popular/iconic characters that their fanbases are all divided. Plus if we got more Pokemon I would think they'd be one of the 3 cut veterans.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Toad arguably already has an in-game role, unless you're referring to Captain Toad. Mario and Pokemon characters are kind of in a grey area, there are so many popular/iconic characters that their fanbases are all divided. Plus if we got more Pokemon I would think they'd be one of the 3 cut veterans.

Captain Toad would be the feasible one.

As for the Pokemon characters, yeah, I feel Squirtle and Ivysaur are the most likeliest of them all.

 

[FalKoopa]

I think we all have rather varying perception of what personality means.

I was referring to character development. I'll admit I was wrong about TL on that regard. But the rest still do apply.

 

[Kenith]

I can feel it in my bones.
The stars are aligning.
All the Jiggies are in place.

Banjo-Kazooie is totally going to be in Smash.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I can feel it in my bones.
The stars are aligning.
All the Jiggles are in place.

Banjo-Kazooie is totally going to be in Smash.

I agree with you, but one question remains: When?

 

[Kenith]

I agree with you, but one question remains: When?

DECEMBER 15th, 2015. IT WILL HAPPEN.
Maybe.
Probably. Definitely.

Spoiler

I will look dumb if they're not in.
But I can't help it. I just know Banjo is in.

 

[TheAnvil]

I can feel it in my bones.
The stars are aligning.
All the Jiggles are in place.

Banjo-Kazooie is totally going to be in Smash.

Kenith man, don't do this to me. They're called Jiggies not Jiggles .

Seriously though, I cannot get my hopes up for Banjo-Kazooie.

 

[Halfhead]

What five reveals would make the Direct optimal for you?

In a perfect world for me, the Direct would have the following:

1) Banjo-Kazooie

2) A new option in Rules that switches between the current Brawl-based physics and a set more attune to Melee's. This wouldn't change fall speeds or anything, just the directional air dodge, ledge mechanics, and maybe dash mechanics.

3) The full results of the Ballot. Even if the top few choices aren't used, I'd still like to see the results.

4) K. Rool or Dixie Kong

5) Squirtle or Ivysaur

 

[FalKoopa]

Are we throwing out last-minute predictions? I've been wrong too many times to bother.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

2) A new option in Rules that switches between the current Brawl-based physics and a set more attune to Melee's. This wouldn't change fall speeds or anything, just the directional air dodge, ledge mechanics, and maybe dash mechanics.

As if the community wasn't divided enough with customs, Miis and omega stages...

 

[Halfhead]

Are we throwing out last-minute predictions? I'm been wrong too many times to bother.

Nah, I've resolved that predictions are impossible after Cloud. I can only make wishlists and guess how likely they might be. In my case, maybe two of my five are likely.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Are we throwing out last-minute predictions? I'm been wrong too many times to bother.

The only thing I can predict is that Sakurai will do something unpredictable.

 

[Banjodorf]

Are we throwing out last-minute predictions? I'm been wrong too many times to bother.

Yeah...Smash 4 hasn't been a very successful game for me. I really only predicted Mega Man, Little Mac, Palutena and Shulk. Every other reveal was a complete surprise and things never happened when I expected them.

So I'm just gonna see what happens this time.

 

[TheAnvil]

What five reveals would make the Direct optimal for you?

In a perfect world for me, the Direct would have the following:

1) Banjo-Kazooie

2) A new option in Rules that switches between the current Brawl-based physics and a set more attune to Melee's. This wouldn't change fall speeds or anything, just the directional air dodge, ledge mechanics, and maybe dash mechanics.

3) The full results of the Ballot. Even if the top few choices aren't used, I'd still like to see the results.

4) K. Rool or Dixie Kong

5) Squirtle or Ivysaur

Optimal as in, any character goes?

1) Banjo Kazooie. BK/BT are my all time favorite games, and their moveset just oozes originality. I want them home, where they belong.
2) Dixie, K. Rool or Lanky. DK is my favorite Nintendo franchise by far, and it's full of awesome and unique characters just waiting to join Smash. I find it hard to pick between which of these characters is my favorite but Dixie just gets the edge due to her being the most realistic choice.
3) Spyro. I always preferred the Spyro games to the Crash ones, and his status as one of the few characters who rivalled Mario by being a system mascot makes him very desirable to me. Skylander's popularity puts him over even more.
4) Rayman. Huge icon that can easily stand shoulder to shoulder with the current crop of 3rd parties. Brilliant games, tons of moveset potential.
5) Mickey. He's probably the biggest character in any form of media, and I firmly believe his video game resume is enough alone to warrant inclusion. He's not just a spongebob/Shrek kind of licensed games character; Castle of Illusion, Epic Mickey, Disney Infinity, Magical Mirror, Mickey's Speedway, Game & Watch etc etc. Just imagine Mario vs. Mickey vs. Pac-Man vs. Sonic.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

4 more days until Smashmas

 

[Kenith]

Kenith man, don't do this to me. They're called Jiggies not Jiggles .

Seriously though, I cannot get my hopes up for Banjo-Kazooie.

Anvil, I genuinely remember myself typing "jiggie" and FOR SOME REASON it decided to not be that just long enough for you to express disappointment with me.

 

[FalKoopa]

Yeah...Smash 4 hasn't been a very successful game for me. I really only predicted Mega Man, Little Mac, Palutena and Shulk. Every other reveal was a complete surprise and things never happened when I expected them.

So I'm just gonna see what happens this time.

Same here, though I was also expecting a Mario newcomer.

I gave up predicting after the ESRB leak.

 

[Halfhead]

I predicted Mega Man, Pac-Man, Palutena, Little Mac, Miis, Mewtwo, Solo Charizard, Shulk, and Bowser Jr.

To be fair though, I also predicted Tom Nook instead if Villager, thought they would cut Dr. Mario, Roy, Lucas, and Ike entirely, and had nothing close to a clue that Wii Fit Trainer, Rosalina, and Greninja would in it.

 

[Kenith]

I predicted Robin and Lucina would both get in before Chrom did and was totally right.
Seriously, like, I want that on my tombstone.

 

[TheAnvil]

I predicted: Greninja, Miis, Palutena, Pac-Man, Little Mac, Bowser Jr, Megaman and also Solo-Sheik and Mewtwo's return. Also that Chrom wouldn't get in for being too similar to Marth and Ike.

Off-hand predictions: Lucina (if there was a new FE character), Duck Hunt Duo (between him and Balloon Fighter) and an AC character (leant towards Nook).

Am I a god?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Am I a god?

No, you are not.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Basically just a weekend away now. I am still very confident that the last character they show is going to trump Cloud either by being someone so out of left field that no body would have seen them coming (Lara Croft, for example) or someone who's really popular but most people have quietly ruled them out. I know there's going to be at least two more announced but I could see them doing up to four because I'm still confident that at least one more veteran is coming back.

 

[FalKoopa]

I predicted: Greninja, Miis, Palutena, Pac-Man, Little Mac, Bowser Jr, Megaman and also Solo-Sheik and Mewtwo's return. Also that Chrom wouldn't get in for being too similar to Marth and Ike.

Off-hand predictions: Lucina (if there was a new FE character), Duck Hunt Duo (between him and Balloon Fighter) and an AC character (leant towards Nook).

Am I a god?

I'm more inclined to trust your instincts now.

 

[Zzuxon]

I can feel it in my bones.
The stars are aligning.
All the Jiggies are in place.

Banjo-Kazooie is totally going to be in Smash.

Uggh, don't do this to my fragile heart Kenith!
I'm trying so hard not to get my hopes up.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Basically just a weekend away now. I am still very confident that the last character they show is going to trump Cloud either by being someone so out of left field that no body would have seen them coming (Lara Croft, for example)

So basically, no-one, considering every big, significant video game icon has already been discussed?

 

[predator_21476]

Before everyone gets to insane with predictions and expectations read this article http://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/12/10/hype-responsibly/#more-4276. I think it applies here so we don't all go haywire then end up disappointed.

 

[TheSpitefulWolf]

we doin predictions? cloud + pichu + wolf

it's all that makes sense at this point yall, and you blind if you're denying otherwise.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Before everyone gets to insane with predictions and expectations read this article http://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/12/10/hype-responsibly/#more-4276. I think it applies here so we don't all go haywire then end up disappointed.

I think that hyping with moderation has been officially impossible since November 12th, 2015