General Tier Disccussion

[Pink Reaper]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1YpTavQjDE

 

[Grunt]

I much prefer shorter speedruns, like the 5 minute run of ALttP

 

[Winston]

luigi should be higher but not above doc.

Matchup-wise and Performance-wise, Luigi is every bit as good as doc.

 

[otg]

Matchup-wise and Performance-wise, Luigi is every bit as good as doc.

Luigi and Doc numerically do the same in the following matchups: Fox/Falco/Marth/Peach/Falcon/Jiggz/Icies/Samus

Sheik ***** Luigi more
Doc/Mario have an edge against Luigi. Ganon > Luigi, Doc/Mario > Ganon. As for the low tiers on who cares.

Luigi's in the right spot, they have similar matchups in the top tiers but the Mario's beat out the top of the Low tier.

 

[Winston]

Luigi and Doc numerically do the same in the following matchups: Fox/Falco/Marth/Peach/Falcon/Jiggz/Icies/Samus

Sheik ***** Luigi more
Doc/Mario have an edge against Luigi. Ganon > Luigi, Doc/Mario > Ganon. As for the low tiers on who cares.

Luigi's in the right spot, they have similar matchups in the top tiers but the Mario's beat out the top of the Low tier.

If you're basing that off of the matchup chart, just keep in mind that the matchup chart is pretty unreliable because of the sheer amount of information it attempts to keep track of.

 

[otg]

If you're basing that off of the matchup chart, just keep in mind that the matchup chart is pretty unreliable because of the sheer amount of information it attempts to keep track of.

Although that matchup chart is flawed, it's not completely wrong. And no, I didn't base all my opinions off of that. Go to the Luigi boards and look up his matchups there. I know the Doc matchups and my crewmate mains Luigi so I have a lot of experience against him, and use him as a reference for matchups.

 

[Megachuk]

Top/God
Fox
Falco

High
Sheik
Marth
Peach

Middle
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff (Jiggly has been winning alot, and definately a tough character to counter.)
Ice Climbers
Ganondorf (His pure power and awesomeness in teams, makes a move up seem Inevitable.)
Samus (too many bad/tough matchups, and has harder times in janky levels than most characters.)
Dr Mario
Mario


Low
Link
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Young Link
Pikachu
Game & Watch (while light, G&W is one of the few "bottom" tiers that has multiple moves for KO potential)

Bottom
Roy
Zelda
Ness
Pichu (too **** fast to be in the bottom two)
Yoshi (he can't even jump out of shield...)
Bowser
Mewtwo
Kirby (Although I play as him alot, and somehow win. He's ****in terrible.)


I wouldn't change a thing with the top 5... To me they seem perfectly in order.

 

[metaXzero]

^You're the first person here 2 put M2 over Kirby. Not that I disagree or anything.

Though I do say Falco needs to be passed by at least Marth.

 

[otg]

Just based on tournament results Marth should be above Fox.

 

[Vro]

It's hard to determine that, because M2K is overly representative of Marth. So whether that's M2K or if it's Marth is the question. My belief is Marth is definitely top, but still below Fox. M2K has shown great talent with every character, so it may not just be Marth doing the work.

Fox as a character has limitless technical options. I am not saying that Fox is potentially the best because of his speed and technical ability. Rather I am saying Fox gives more control to his player than Marth, IMO. That is a characteristic of a god tier character: full control.

 

[Stryk9]

hmm this is a much needed discussion imo, for the reasons already stated

- 2 years has changed the game alot

- it behooves us to reconsider the current tier list for the benefit of all nubs everywhere hehe.


I think marth can jump above falco, but just barely, seeing as falco is still very powerful and tournament viable.

I think jiggs needs to be above samus and doc ATLEAST.

my tier list would start like this

Top

Fox - plz, do not start with the "marth is better cuz of m2k" ish. Fox is clearly the best character, usmash anyone? Lets just leave him at the top of the sand castle.
Marth

Almost top and still dope

Falco
Shiek
Peach

Badass but still tend to lose more against ^these *******s

Captain Falcon/Iceclimbers - I just can't decide, with the advent of wobbling it seems to push ice climbers up and leave me with no easy decision.
Jigglypuff
samus
Doc
Ganon - really how is mario above ganon? We've all seen ganon continue to ****. Maybe even higher than doc.


Yea and ness is better than all.

 

[otg]

Hell, I agree Fox is probably the best character due to the fact that under the perfect conditions he would be untouchable. M2K isn't the only Marth ****** though, you got Cactuar, Ken, Cort. Hell, one of the last MLG tournies was PC vs KDJ Marth ditto. Based on TOURNAMENT results Marth should be above Fox, when was the last time Fox won a major tournament?

 

[Grunt]

Tourney***s 3

 

[Ojos de los Caballos Savajes]

The top tier should be Fox, Falco, Marth, and Sheik... I'm not claiming any particular order. The next tier should be Peach, Falcon, Jiggly Puff, and Ice Climbers... Again I'm not gonna say there's any order.. I don't see any reason to split tiers so much near the top.

 

[NeBz]

Top
Marth
Fox

High
Sheik
Falco
Peach

High Middle
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Ice Climbers

Middle
Samus
Dr Mario
Mario
Luigi
Ganondorf

Low
Link
Donkey Kong
Young Link
Pikachu
Game & Watch

Bottom
Yoshi
Mewtwo
Roy
Zelda
Ness
Bowser
Pichu
Kirby

 

[The Real Inferno]

General concessus shows a desire for Marth to move up due to the overwhelming tournament results Marth has had in the hands of players like Ken and M2K. On the other hand, what is a hot button issue is if he is better than Fox. In my opinion he is not, but I do believe he is better than Falco. As for why I don't think he is better than Fox, I just don't think you can't argue with Fox's raw power and speed.

On the subject of Luigi, I like him where he is. He's pretty good, but he isn't better than the Doc. I think Middle Tier should look something more like this:

Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Jigglypuff
Samus
Dr. Mario
Ganondorf
Mario

I feel the relationships between the Marios and Ganondorf are such that Mario is slightly worse than Doc and Ganon, but Ganon isn't quite as good as Doc.

 

[otg]

Roy in mid tier ? lol move him to bottom tier and put DK in the mid tier.

 

[NeBz]

Roy in mid tier ? lol move him to bottom tier and put DK in the mid tier.

Forgive a noob for asking, but why is Roy so bad? He has good range and is a good edge guarder. Sure, his combos aren't as great and so is his attacks but isn't that why he's so much lower than Marth?

*Hides under a table*

 

[Pink Reaper]

Forgive a noob for asking, but why is Roy so bad? He has good range and is a good edge guarder. Sure, his combos aren't as great and so is his attacks but isn't that why he's so much lower than Marth?

*Hides under a table*

Roy is an absolutely horrible character. His ok range is off put by the fact that his attacks are as weak as a paper fan unless sweetspotted at extreme close range. He has the bad combination of being light weight, fast falling and having the worst recovery in the game, making killing him easy. His attacks don't combo well(or in most cases, at all) and his only reliable kill moves are his Fsmash and Neutral B attacks. His edge guarding abilities are actually horrible as all of his moves are so obvious that they should be easily teched(assuming you can ledge tech) and his aerial movement and recovery are so bad that he risks killing himself attempting to edge guard off the stage. He's easily comboed, his ground game is bad, his air game is bad, he's just bad. He deserves bottom tier.

 

[NeBz]

Roy is an absolutely horrible character. His ok range is off put by the fact that his attacks are as weak as a paper fan unless sweetspotted at extreme close range. He has the bad combination of being light weight, fast falling and having the worst recovery in the game, making killing him easy. His attacks don't combo well(or in most cases, at all) and his only reliable kill moves are his Fsmash and Neutral B attacks. His edge guarding abilities are actually horrible as all of his moves are so obvious that they should be easily teched(assuming you can ledge tech) and his aerial movement and recovery are so bad that he risks killing himself attempting to edge guard off the stage. He's easily comboed, his ground game is bad, his air game is bad, he's just bad. He deserves bottom tier.

D:

Sorry for my ignorance.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Oh well, at least your not one of the amazingly stereotypical smash n00bs who will never accept that Roy's a bad character. And for that, I thank you :bigthumbu

 

[NeBz]

I just tried him. He IS horrible. Utilt sucks and has no knockback. Fair also has no knockback and since he fastfalls, no SHDF.

 

[Cactuar]

I'm always really amused when people who aren't top level players argue over tier lists and such.

I've discussed this with others, but realistically, there should be two different tier lists based on potential of a character, and a possible third list (NOT a tier list, as this is not the definition of) based on tourny wins. Tier lists are to represent how good a character is, not how much they win tournaments. How much a character wins tournaments often reflects the tiers, but it doesn't define those tier lists in any way. Player skill always outmatches character given that the matchups don't favor the one character too heavily (Sheik vs... pretty much any low tier...).

The first tier list would have to be "Unlimited Potential". Given perfect control, blah blah blah, I don't need to explain this. Without a doubt, Fox's shine becomes the most broken thing ever, followed by Falco's due to the increased number of frames Falco requires to jump. IMO, Sheik follows in third. Marth being at fourth could possibly even be contested. At a perfect level of play, Marth is NOT fast enough to compete with other characters. Whatever, I don't like this list because it is cause for too much speculation past the top two characters.

The second tier list is "Human Potential". By human potential, tech skill is not everything. We focus mostly on characters
1. on stage survivability
2. off state recovery
3. gimp game
4. combo ability
5. overall speed
6. KO potential

Fox - Overall, Fox is a ridiculous character. He loses points in 1 and 2 because of how easily fast fallers are comboed and his somewhat predictable and gimpable recovery. Strong in 3-6.

Blurg, I'm hungry. I might continue with this later. Probably not.

 

[Eggm]

Heres the absolute tier list based on all reason/logic thats right in the world. xD

Characters with a chance to win tournaments if your good enough. In order of best to worst :

Marth
Fox
Sheik
Falco
Peach
Falcon
Jiggs
IC's
Samus
Also I think the cahracters above this line also have the most potential and are slightly better than those underneath, but not a gigantic margin that player skill can't overcome.
Gannondorf
Dr. Mario
Mario
Luigi
Donkey kong

Characters who could MAYBE get by winning a tournament and are slightly better than the rest not yet mentioned :
Link
Young link
Pikachu

Garbage you can't win tournaments with no matter how good you get that shouldn't be mained except for novelty.

Mewtwo
Bowser
G&w
Yoshi
Zelda
Pichu
Kirby
Ness
Roy

These are really the only 3 category's that need to be said IMO lol. I'll do a bit of reasoning behind my placings too

The last time falco has won a major tournament was like... forever ago sometime before MLG vegas. And even then pc used fox in the grand finals. Fox/sheik/marth win more major tournaments and are in m2k's eyes and mine better characters. I'm trying to change that however. Kdj has won touranemts with shiek since those mlg's m2k with marth and pc with fox and those ones usually win the majors anyway. Side note : highest placing falco at pound 3 was me at 13th. Mad fox/sheiks/marths above me. Even forward when fox/sheik mostly. Shiz wasn't there he probably woulda placed like top 5, but still i don't think hew oulda took the top placing. So thats my reasoning behind Falco being 4th. I think I have a pretty legit view on this being one of the best falcos. as for marth above fox, well simply he is the best character played at the level smahsers play at right now IMO.

Fox I agree is potentially better, but the tier list is based on results of tournaments and stuff. As of right now the highest level of play is marth, and kinda always has been. Best players have always used marth (ken/azen/m2k). Of course htey use fox too, but not nearly as much as marth. Sheik above falco was based on 1st places of majors and what m2k told me about how he thinks sheiks really really good. also the fact that theres tons more falco players than sheik players yet shiek players still have won majors while falco hasn't in a looooong time.

going further down the list.

Falcon has been consistently placing really well at tournaments as always I think his position is fine, same with peach. I moved jiggs up cause of mango's recent performances. Also chu has still been ****** with IC's and wobbles doing decent and stuffs, so yeah, they get to be up there too. I moved samus up cause hugs won that 150 man tournament with tons of top/high tiers under him the week after pound with all samus. Ganondorf cause hes a beast, and linguini and a lot of FL players are really good with him and often place super high in FL tournaments. Play an FL ganon if you disagree with me on this lol. Also kage did well at georgia and other things. I think ganons better than those i put under him. I moved luigi/dk into their place cause mainly of bum/ka-master. ka-master has won numerous tournaments in his area same with bum. They also both had super strong showings at very high level of competition tournaments playing mainly that one character. Ka-master got 2nd at that same 150 man tournament that hugs got 1st in. Bum 4th at mlg long island beating pros and stuff. I feel they both deserve to be moved up. Also after playing many good luigi/dk mains like pakmanoncrack pkm vodka and vist and others, I think they are just better characters then under them.

Moving further down.

I think those 3 in that mid category are just clearly better than those under them, and tournament results prove it IMO. Between anther making it out of pools at pound 3 which is amazing with pikachu and skler always ****** with link everywhere. and chu using young link and jash doing awesome at pound 3 and just his potential as a character I think he should be in there too.

I really don't care about the worthless characters that much lol. Sorry to be harsh but I really don't think these characters stand a chance no matter how good the players are in a real tournament. But I did rank them on what I personally believe to be the order of best to worst amongst them.

I think I'm pretty qualified here on my list to talk about it since I play at a fairly high level. if anyone wants to argue/comment on this list let me know I'll be happy to do it with you, and check this thread more often talking about tiers is fun. Try to keep the arguing out of the bottom tiers tho unless you have really solid evidence, cause I don't really care about them that much to change my opinion on the order of those. Feel free to comment on why you think characters I didn't include in the list that can win tournaments can win them if you think they can.

All in all I think if you play the characters in the FIRST category before that space under samus player skill is gonna determine the winner above and beyond all else.

 

[Ojos de los Caballos Savajes]

^yeah, I like eggm's list...
Except Roy isn't the worst. Hugs is like phenomanally awesome though. I could see Samus going down a peg. Hugs is like super phenomonally awesome. The way he plays is like "what the heck... That was amazing."

 

[Dark Hart]

Top Tier - These three are the best in the game
Sheik
Fox
Marth

High Tier - Yes, I put Jiggs here; she deserves it.
Falco
Peach
Captain Falcon
Purin

Middle Tier - Not sure what to do with Luigi and Doc, and DK's above Mario
IC's
Samus
Ganon
Luigi/Doc
DK

Low Tier - Yes, Mario and G&W are here. G&W is underrated.
Mario
Link
Roy
Young Link
Pikachu
Mr. Game & Watch

Bottom Tier - Pichu and Mewtwo have been switched.
Yoshi
Zelda
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Mewtwo
Pichu

 

[Winston]

I'm always really amused when people who aren't top level players argue over tier lists and such.

I've discussed this with others, but realistically, there should be two different tier lists based on potential of a character, and a possible third list (NOT a tier list, as this is not the definition of) based on tourny wins. Tier lists are to represent how good a character is, not how much they win tournaments. How much a character wins tournaments often reflects the tiers, but it doesn't define those tier lists in any way. Player skill always outmatches character given that the matchups don't favor the one character too heavily (Sheik vs... pretty much any low tier...).

The first tier list would have to be "Unlimited Potential". Given perfect control, blah blah blah, I don't need to explain this. Without a doubt, Fox's shine becomes the most broken thing ever, followed by Falco's due to the increased number of frames Falco requires to jump. IMO, Sheik follows in third. Marth being at fourth could possibly even be contested. At a perfect level of play, Marth is NOT fast enough to compete with other characters. Whatever, I don't like this list because it is cause for too much speculation past the top two characters.

The second tier list is "Human Potential". By human potential, tech skill is not everything. We focus mostly on characters
1. on stage survivability
2. off state recovery
3. gimp game
4. combo ability
5. overall speed
6. KO potential

Fox - Overall, Fox is a ridiculous character. He loses points in 1 and 2 because of how easily fast fallers are comboed and his somewhat predictable and gimpable recovery. Strong in 3-6.

Blurg, I'm hungry. I might continue with this later. Probably not.

Not that it matters, but I remember Magus once posted that in frame perfect play, Bowser would be third best (because the game would degenerate into ledge-camping and who can ledgecamp the most effectively) (unless somehow rules were added to limit ledgestalling).

Found the post:

Perfect play to win frame by frame play is really little beyond how flexible your infinite ledgestall is and whether you have a 1 frame invincibility move. It'd be Fox/Bowser in God tier, Falco in Top, and everyone else in Can't-Beat-Any-Of-The-Above tier. For those I believe it'd theoretically be like this:

Fox > Falco - Fox can beat Falco's ledge camping by stealing it and then getting free damage after he's left open doing his up-b. Falco can also beat Fox's ledge camping. Fox's up-b doesn't hit until the 20th so he has time to slip in and grab it in time. Fox has control of wherever Falco goes with his shine range and walking speed advantage. Fox can force Falco into a run to stay in range with his shine as his walk is slightly faster than Falco's, and then Falco would require a frame of crouching to be able to shine while Fox can still shine immediately at any time.

Bowser = Falco - Bowser can beat Falco's ledge camping. Falco can't beat Bowser's ledge camping, since if he tries to steal the edge Bowser is using his double jump to stall and isn't committed to anything like Fox/Falco's stalls, and can simply land on the stage rather than fastfall to regrab and continue the stall. Plus by grabbing the edge, Falco will either be giving the ledge right back to him or getting hit if he tries to stall. On the stage Falco should have control of Bowser's movement, but it doesn't matter because he has no way of getting/keeping him there. Bowser is impossible to hit, and it's impossible to interrupt his stall without Falco himself taking damage and then losing.

Bowser = Fox - Same deal as Falco/Bowser.

@ eggm

A while ago m2k posted that it's Sheik Fox Marth in that order at the top, does he still think that?

 

[Eggm]

Yes he still thinks that.

 

[L__]

My ideas are constantly changing so don't think that this is what I want the finalized thing to be.

Top Tier - IMO
Sheik
Fox
Marth

High Tier - IMO
Falco
Peach
Captain Falcon
Jiggs.

Middle Tier - IMO
IC's
Ganon
Luigi/Doc
Samus
DK

Low Tier - IMO
Mario
Link
Roy
Young Link
Pikachu
Mr. Game & Watch

Bottom Tier -
Yoshi
Ness
Zelda
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu
Mewtwo

 

[Dark Hart]

My ideas are constantly changing so don't think that this is what I want the finalized thing to be.

You basically used mine, bro.

 

[L__]

Shh...


you guys, this thread is moving faster than our discussion Dark Hart... lol

But seriously, I'm going to have a completely different idea of a tierlist tomorrow. >.>

 

[Winston]

Yes he still thinks that.

It's funny how usually m2k's word is the word of god but on this case everyone ignores his sheik/fox/marth opinion.

 

[Mew2King]

Sheik IS The best character

almost 2 weeks ago at chus biweekly, I lost to some random mario with marth, then the next match I 4 stocked him with sheik.

my fox lost to topes sheik, but i 3 stocked him in sheik ditto, non CG

so don't even give me that, "then why don't you use her" line, I use her a ton. If anyone thinks otherwise they are a youtube SCRUB who's opinion is invalid. In fact, any argument similar to anything about me using Sheik is invalid because you have no idea what you would be talking about.

edit - i was playing really sub-par at pound3, don't use that in any arguments, just listen to me, because I know the game far better than any of you ever will.

Sheik
Fox
Marth
Falco (btw, Neo and Cactuar both agree with this top 4, not only myself, and Ken says Sheik's better than Marth too)
Falcon/Peach/Jiggs/ICs
Doc
DK

that is my opinion of the top 10

oh yes and DK counts Fox badly on FD, and Poke. A week after Bum almost beat me, me and chillin were having an argument, and we had a DK vs Fox MM as the solution to the argument that DK counters fox, and on FD all i did was CG him and I 3 stocked him at low % because of the broken CG that DK has on Fox on that stage. I also think DK has more tourney potential than Ganon, and possibly Luigi and Pikachu as well, although it's very close. I think Samus sucks at high level, just horribly. I think Kirby and Ness are worse than Pichu Mewtwo Bowser, and Bowser isn't that bad at all just so you all know.

edit 2 - being an arrogant douchebag is fun

 

[Pink Reaper]

No offense M2K, but even if you don't like her you have to admit that samus has proven herself to be very capable at high levels of play, more so than even Doc and DK.

Also, Pound 3, TAKE THAT(lol, j/k)

 

[Mew2King]

Nah dude, Samus is not as good as DK, nor Doc. I don't care at all what anyone has "proven", the character, Samus, is not as good as the characters Dr. Mario and Donkey Kong for winning tourneys.

I love Metroid.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Aw come on, how can you say that? Even with his ability to **** spacies horribly DK has huge amounts of trouble with just about every other upper tier character with the exceptions of Falcon and maybe Marth. At least Spamus can compete with EVERYONE(except ironically Falcon and Marth >_>)

I love Kirby <3

 

[Winston]

Sheik IS The best character

almost 2 weeks ago at chus biweekly, I lost to some random mario with marth, then the next match I 4 stocked him with sheik.

my fox lost to topes sheik, but i 3 stocked him in sheik ditto, non CG

so don't even give me that, "then why don't you use her" line, I use her a ton. If anyone thinks otherwise they are a youtube SCRUB who's opinion is invalid. In fact, any argument similar to anything about me using Sheik is invalid because you have no idea what you would be talking about.

edit - i was playing really sub-par at pound3, don't use that in any arguments, just listen to me, because I know the game far better than any of you ever will.

Sheik
Fox
Marth
Falco (btw, Neo and Cactuar both agree with this top 4, not only myself, and Ken says Sheik's better than Marth too)
Falcon/Peach/Jiggs/ICs
Doc
DK

that is my opinion of the top 10

oh yes and DK counts Fox badly on FD, and Poke. A week after Bum almost beat me, me and chillin were having an argument, and we had a DK vs Fox MM as the solution to the argument that DK counters fox, and on FD all i did was CG him and I 3 stocked him at low % because of the broken CG that DK has on Fox on that stage. I also think DK has more tourney potential than Ganon, and possibly Luigi and Pikachu as well, although it's very close. I think Samus sucks at high level, just horribly. I think Kirby and Ness are worse than Pichu Mewtwo Bowser, and Bowser isn't that bad at all just so you all know.

edit 2 - being an arrogant douchebag is fun

Dude you don't have to be so defensive all the time, I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out a dissenting opinion that happens to be from you that everyone apparently forgets about come tier discussion time.

DK's probably better than Luigi cause he handles Marth better...

But why is Doc better than Mario? >.>

@ Pink Reaper:

if like you said he does fine vs spacies, falcon, and marth, then who are "all these upper tier characters" that DK has trouble with?

 

[Dark Hart]

It's funny how usually m2k's word is the word of god but on this case everyone ignores his sheik/fox/marth opinion.

Hey, me and Scar agree with M2K about it. Have you seen what I though it should look like?

 

[SHDW23]

Sheik IS The best character

almost 2 weeks ago at chus biweekly, I lost to some random mario with marth, then the next match I 4 stocked him with sheik.

i don't understand how this proves anything. there are too many variables (each player's comfort level with the match up for example) for this to be a solid reason for sheik being the best. not that she isn't, i just think a more solid argument needs to be made.

 

[Winston]

Hey, me and Scar agree with M2K about it. Have you seen what I though it should look like?

Well, Scar was just posting m2k's opinion, he wasn't necessarily endorsing it.

Also I missed your post, sorry >.>

Just for the most part, most people don't think sheik is the best.