General Tier Disccussion

[Europhoria]

Edit -- Wobbling doesn't make Peach vs ICs even because Peach easily separates Nana.

That's the point of why I said it. A death grab combo isn't awesome if getting the grab you need to it is impossible as hell.

 

[Winston]

It's clearly not even for DK vs spacies, but he does about as well as, say, falcon would do. He doesn't get ***** completely in the matchup.

have you seen m2k vs bum, by the way?

 

[Kyu Puff]

That's the point of why I said it. A death grab combo isn't awesome if getting the grab you need to it is impossible as hell.

Grabbing Peach isn't hard, grabbing Peach while Nana is synched is hard. DK doesn't have as hard a time landing a grab as you seem to think.

 

[Ojos de los Caballos Savajes]

I think IC's should be up there with Captain Falcon, Jiggly, and Peach. They should be like the second tier. It's lame moving IC's down with like Samus and Ganon. Trail (IC Player) just split a tournament with Tink in the midwest, so it's not just Chu and Wobbles. Their worst matchup, against peach, isn't any more unwinnable as, say Peach's matchup vs. Marth. And the rest of their matchups are pretty close.

Also, I still think Falco deserves the top tier spot, too, along with Sheik, Fox, and Marth. The consensus is that Falco is the worst of them, but, he rolls about even with Sheik, and Fox. And the Marth Matchup, hasn't proven to be unwinnable. If a Falco has experience, the Peach matchup seems about even, too. No reason to move him down a tier, IMO.
So, in no particular order I think top tier should be: Fox, Marth, Sheik, and Falco. and High tier should be, in no particular order, Peach, Captain Falcon, Jiggly Puff, and Ice Climbers.

 

[Winston]

Peach's matchup vs Marth is quite unwinnable. That's a pretty hard counter.

Falco's just slightly below because he does have a disadvantage vs Marth, though it's not unwinnable. The top 3 don't really have matchups that are significantly disadvantaged.

That being said, he's closer to the top 3 than to the characters below him.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Peach's matchup vs Marth is quite unwinnable. That's a pretty hard counter.

Peach vs Marth is not really unwinnable, it just depends on the style of the Peach. I personally think that an agressive Peach does much better against Marth than a campy Peach, and that it's really only a slight disadvantage when you play agressively.

 

[Cosmo!]

link ownz dk

 

[otg]

link ownz dk

Great addition to the conversation, care to elaborate on ummm.... HOW?!

 

[Winston]

Peach vs Marth is not really unwinnable, it just depends on the style of the Peach. I personally think that an agressive Peach does much better against Marth than a campy Peach, and that it's really only a slight disadvantage when you play agressively.

Many high level smashers have pretty much stated that it's a one-sided matchup in favor of marth.

Also check out this match, cort vs m2k:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMMkL5A1ITs

and cort and m2k's comments on it...

 

[VA]

Fox
Falco
Marth
Shiek
Peach
Falcon

Maybe even Falcon above Peach at this point in the smash series.

Fox is so extreme. And check out PAL tier list posts near the end for a discussion on why Peach > Falcon (just about).

 

[otg]

Wow.... glad to see this thread is going somewhere.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Great addition to the conversation, care to elaborate on ummm.... HOW?!

i think cort or pc said a while back in the tier discussion that a well spaced link is really hard for dk to get through and that a link with di can avoid taking much damage from dk's combos.

 

[otg]

i think cort or pc said a while back in the tier discussion that a well spaced link is really hard for dk to get through and that a link with di can avoid taking much damage from dk's combos.

This could be true, Link's disjointed hitboxes and projectiles are definitely annoying for DK to deal with, but Dk combo's midweights pretty free, Link being one of them.

 

[metaXzero]

Brawl has a tier list now. Too bad its taboo to compare.

 

[KirbyKaze]

This could be true, Link's disjointed hitboxes and projectiles are definitely annoying for DK to deal with, but Dk combo's midweights pretty free, Link being one of them.

I'll agree that DK can probably average about 30 from a grab on Link even if the Link has good DI. Maybe even 40ish at really low percents (below 10).

I think that between bombs and boomerangs, fair, u-tilt, uair, and nair there's a lot he can do back though. If Link lands an u-tilt, DK has real problems coming down from the resulting string of uairs I'd imagine, and Link can make life approaching hell for DK.

I think they can both combo and edgeguard each other pretty hard, really. Link just also has the bonus of being equipped with disjointed hitboxes and spammable projectiles.

 

[metaXzero]

Nother n00by question. Was it proven that Fox could render himself invincible with ast enough JC shines?

 

[KirbyKaze]

there's a break in invincibility.

shine only gives invincibility for the frame its hitbox is out (so 1). to jc you need to wait for the third frame of the shine (fourth for falco iirc).

so the invincibility isn't consistent.

 

[metaXzero]

So characters had enough time to hit Fox between perfect JC Shines?

 

[Vro]

As long as a move connects anywhere in those 2 frames, it will hit Fox.

 

[Magus420]

A JC shine cycle takes a minimum of 8 frames on flat ground.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

magus's left screen info is mindgamezing the **** out of me