Getting the Lucarionite: MU discussion

[DarkStarStorm]

Is there seriously no matchup thread here? Well, leave to a Zelda main to make one! I'm making a MU chart for the whole cast, so I will update this with the MUs I've researched and mark'm down so you can be my Metal Sounding board.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

The first one I need help with is Falcon, I'm of the opinion that it's fairly even.

 

[AkashSky]

I feel that lucario's better matchup's are against medium weight characters like roy/ike weight because their weight leads to some good combos like downthrow nair which can kill.

In my experience playing against falcon, it's been kinda easy because the falcons I know cannot handle being edge-guarded with a spirit bomb. However, I am sure that at a pro level this technique would not work. The advantage that falcon has over lucario is that all of his aerials are slightly better move for move (what beats a knee to face?). Wheras lucario has better aerial mobility due to extreme-speed cancels and down B cancels. I say that mobility is an extremely important advantage that outweighs aerial power in this case, so I say that Lucario vs Falcon is 55:45 in lucario's favor.

Also, where have you written down your other matchups in a chart or something?

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

**** Nairizard -__-

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I feel that lucario's better matchup's are against medium weight characters like roy/ike weight because their weight leads to some good combos like downthrow nair which can kill.

In my experience playing against falcon, it's been kinda easy because the falcons I know cannot handle being edge-guarded with a spirit bomb. However, I am sure that at a pro level this technique would not work. The advantage that falcon has over lucario is that all of his aerials are slightly better move for move (what beats a knee to face?). Wheras lucario has better aerial mobility due to extreme-speed cancels and down B cancels. I say that mobility is an extremely important advantage that outweighs aerial power in this case, so I say that Lucario vs Falcon is 55:45 in lucario's favor.

Also, where have you written down your other matchups in a chart or something?

Yeah, I basically made the Brawl MU chart except all of the characters are in alphabetical order and I blanked out the MUs. I would tend to agree with your assessment. Though if Falcon get's a combo string started on Lucario, (not that hard to do), Lucario can't deal with the pressure so his only hope against a competent Falcon is DI.

 

[Bane13]

As long as you don't let Falcon control the stage, it seems fairly even. Lucario and Falcon can both combo each other fairly well, but Falcon has the speed he needs to give Lucario a rough time in neutral. Once Lucario gets Falcon offstage, though, that should be a stock.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

As long as you don't let Falcon control the stage, it seems fairly even. Lucario and Falcon can both combo each other fairly well, but Falcon has the speed he needs to give Lucario a rough time in neutral. Once Lucario gets Falcon offstage, though, that should be a stock.

Thank you guys, and have fun with getting the Lucarionite, go Mega!

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Hi there, can someone give me some help for fighting Ivysaur and Falco? By practicing basic combos, I find A, FA, USmash, J Cancel, Aerial works well, but I want some MU tips.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Hi there, can someone give me some help for fighting Ivysaur and Falco? By practicing basic combos, I find A, FA, USmash, J Cancel, Aerial works well, but I want some MU tips.

I believe that Spirit Bomb can eat up projectiles so I'd try that first. With Ivy, you want to cancel down-b like there's no tomorrow. Ivy excels at keeping people in hitstun, by approaching with down-b, you can get past some of his more campy moves.

For Falco, it's maintaining constant pressure so he can't laser approach. It's key. Punish his shield with grabs and side-b because you never want Falco's shield to be his safe place. He can nair or shine OoS and you DON'T want that.

Instead of Jump Cancel, aerial, do this: Jump Cancel, side b, Up-b cancel as a techchase.
I like your Avatar by the way.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

I believe that Spirit Bomb can eat up projectiles so I'd try that first. With Ivy, you want to cancel down-b like there's no tomorrow. Ivy excels at keeping people in hitstun, by approaching with down-b, you can get past some of his more campy moves.

For Falco, it's maintaining constant pressure so he can't laser approach. It's key. Punish his shield with grabs and side-b because you never want Falco's shield to be his safe place. He can nair or shine OoS and you DON'T want that.

Instead of Jump Cancel, aerial, do this: Jump Cancel, side b, Up-b cancel as a techchase.
I like your Avatar by the way.

Thanks! I will try out that combo instead! Also, any stage choices I should consider?

(And yeah, Greninja is a boos)

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Thanks! I will try out that combo instead! Also, any stage choices I should consider?

(And yeah, Greninja is a boos)

Personal pick, Battlefield. not only will the combo I picked have a good finish if you side b them onto the platform, but down b will lose some of its predictability.
Others: WarioWare
Masterball Stadium

Never Yoshi's Island Brawl.

 

[Zoa]

Lucario has a rough time against characters with solid OoS options or a way to keep him out. Some of his current MUs I say he would have a tough time against would be Pit, Link, Tink, and the spacies. Link and Tink strictly because of their range and ability to keep the blue guy out of punish range. Pit has a solid up B OoS, solid projectile, and range than rivals Lucario's. Spacies have an incredibly strong neutral game and shield pressure game while Lucario has a horrible shield (whose idea was that anyway?) and poor dodges outside of Double Team.

 

[paxinchristo]

I find that my Lucario has a really rough time playing against floaty characters (e.g. Kirby, Jiggs). Any tips?

 

[Ali Baba 177]

I would love it if you guys could take some time and fill out this survey below. It is a survey for the MUs of Lucario, I would post the results after some time and we can hopefully talk more on where Lucario stands.
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/9PRZVMD

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Hey guys, by the end of tomorrow, I'll post my thoughts for a lot of MUs so stay on the lookout so we can have some great discussion!

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Lucario vs Peach:

Approaching the Float-

· Double Team Cancel> Up-tilt/Up Smash

· Full hop Fair

· (From above) Double Team Cancel> Dair/Bair (timing and spacing for this is hard)

· Up-B?? Haven’t tried this out at all

Peach’s thre best “approach” options are Float Cancel Fair> Jab/Grab/Down Smash, Float Cancel Bair and throwing turnips. I highly suggest learning how to instant AGT (aerial glide toss) because it is so good against Peach and other characters such as Link and Toon Link, Diddy, ROB. Since Peach has very good reign over the air and can deplete Lucario’s shield with one Down Smash while Lucario has difficult and limited approach options, I’d say this matchup is in favor of Peach.

Lucario vs Fox:

This matchup is difficult for Lucario if the Fox knows how to play it. Fox has same up throw> up air combos that he has on the rest of the cast, and this matchup can be fun because there is so much shield pressuring and so many insane combos happening. The biggest problem is that Lucario has virtually no OoS options while Fox has shine OoS which is super good. I’d say the hardest part of this matchup is at lower percents because Lucario is forced to tech-chase from his throws and only starts getting more guaranteed follow ups at higher percent. Fox is relatively easy to edgeguard, I suggest going deep offstage to catch him out of his up B and throwing spirit bombs or aura spheres to negate the side B option.

Lucario vs Metaknight:
I personally like this matchup. I feel like Lucario has a good tech-chasing game on Metaknight, he can convert hits into kills pretty easily since Metaknight isn't a very heavy character (Up-throw>Nair/Bair at around 105%?). I also don't think that Metaknight can gimp Lucario very easily because of various recovery mixups etc. Lucario can also limit Metaknight with Aura Spheres and tack on a little bit of damage. The hardest part with Lucario is always getting that one hit in though but other than having a little bit of trouble in the neutral game (Aura Spheres help alleviate this problem), I'd say this matchup is relatively even if not slightly in Lucario's favor.

Lucario vs Falcon:
This is a fun matchup which really depends on how many quick kills Lucario gets. Captain Falcon combos really hard and puts a beating on Lucario in the neutral game, but edgeguarding Falcon isn't very difficult, and I feel that combo-ing Falcon isn't very tough either. I have to give this matchup to Falcon though because he can kill earlier: combo>knee, and because he can get the first hit in more easily than we can. I'd say 60-40 Falcon's favor?

Lucario vs Mewtwo: Definitely in Mewtwo’s favor. Mewtwo outranges Lucario, his shadow ball is faster than Lucario’s aura sphere, he is extremely fast in the air. It’s hard for me not to say that he is one of the best characters in the game. I believe our combo game is slightly better on him, but I’m not too sure about that.

Lucario vs Yoshi: I want to say that this matchup is favorable for Lucario. Lucario’s aerial Force Palm is pretty good in this matchup, however, Yoshi can edgeguard Lucario pretty well with down-tilt and down-smash. Other than that, I don’t know much about this one.

Lucario vs Pit: I hate this matchup. Plain and simple

Lucario vs Diddy: I haven’t personally played this matchup, but from what I’ve heard, it’s bad. Bananas shut down Lucario’s Double Team pretty well.

 

[AkashSky]

Lucario vs Peach:

Approaching the Float-

· Double Team Cancel> Up-tilt/Up Smash

· Full hop Fair

· (From above) Double Team Cancel> Dair/Bair (timing and spacing for this is hard)

· Up-B?? Haven’t tried this out at all

Peach’s thre best “approach” options are Float Cancel Fair> Jab/Grab/Down Smash, Float Cancel Bair and throwing turnips. I highly suggest learning how to instant AGT (aerial glide toss) because it is so good against Peach and other characters such as Link and Toon Link, Diddy, ROB. Since Peach has very good reign over the air and can deplete Lucario’s shield with one Down Smash while Lucario has difficult and limited approach options, I’d say this matchup is in favor of Peach.

.

Please elaborate on instant AGT, as to how exactly it is useful and the input commands for it.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Instant Aerial Glidetoss is where you air-dodge into an item while pressing the c-stick in the direction with which you wish to throw the item at basically the exact same time as you airdodge. By doing this, you both catch the item (by air-dodging) and throw the item (with the c-stick). It's useful because you basically negate the effectiveness of an item by using it against your opponent. Having better item control than your opponent is crucial for winning certain matchups where items are rampant.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Instant Aerial Glidetoss is where you air-dodge into an item while pressing the c-stick in the direction with which you wish to throw the item at basically the exact same time as you airdodge. By doing this, you both catch the item (by air-dodging) and throw the item (with the c-stick). It's useful because you basically negate the effectiveness of an item by using it against your opponent. Having better item control than your opponent is crucial for winning certain matchups where items are rampant.

I don's play Lucario so I just listen for my name. I say though that up-b is a fantastic techchaser.

 

[Giygacoal]

The biggest problem is that Lucario has virtually no OoS options while Fox has shine OoS which is super good.

Lucario's upSmash out of shield seems good, but I have yet to try it out on humans.

any stage choices I should consider?

This was mentioned, but I also recommend Pokémon Stadium 2. you can do some nice combos with wavelanding onto the platforms.

 

[paxinchristo]

Any thoughts on the Lucario v Squirtle matchup? From what I've experienced, Squirtle seems to have the upper hand in terms of mobility and edgeguarding against Lucario.

 

[BFlake]

Any thoughts on the Lucario v Squirtle matchup? From what I've experienced, Squirtle seems to have the upper hand in terms of mobility and edgeguarding against Lucario.

I feel squirtle is the right weight to be combo'd well by Lucario but getting in will be the hard part. I will want to test this soon but I think the best bet is to out-space them with fairs or wait until they do something risky and get a grab at low percents it's almost guaranteed that you get an Usmash > stuff after an Uthrow

Also what are everyone's opinions about the Sheik and Zelda MUs?

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

A couple random things I learned while testing and then watching videos. The first hit of up smash has a static knockback. And on certain character weights, with inward DI (I think), at mid percents, you can chain down throw > Ex Aerial FP. A cool combo at the edge that will kill at low percents is Up Smash (first hit)> ASC > Ex Aerial FP. You can also do this with down tilt > ASC> Ex Aerial FP. I think this stuff works on floaty characters with like the same weight as Pit.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I feel squirtle is the right weight to be combo'd well by Lucario but getting in will be the hard part. I will want to test this soon but I think the best bet is to out-space them with fairs or wait until they do something risky and get a grab at low percents it's almost guaranteed that you get an Usmash > stuff after an Uthrow

Also what are everyone's opinions about the Sheik and Zelda MUs?

I can answer this one!
Zelda: Nayru's, the Telegame, and Din's are not that effective against this water type Pokemon. Side-b goes through Nayru's, the land cancel CAN BE PUNISHED with an Up smash, and the Love Jump just delays the inevitable.
OH WAIT. derp, I was writing the Squirtle MU...

Okay here we go: The land canceled Nayru's is very effective against Lucario. It stops most of his approaches, disrupts his combos, and reflects his spheres. The telegame is amazing against Lucario especially on platform stages because she can use it to escape or to go on the offensive. Din's are probably the least effective of the three, and yet they seem to wreck him even still. Avoid this MU, it's scary. If you can get up close it makes things drastically easier. She can't sweetspost fair/bair, and so her only options are nair/Nayru's. Bait them out and punish.
Go to flat stages, NEVER go to Battlefield, if you do go to a platform stage, camp. Zelda can't outcamp very well so you should have a means to make her life hard by destroying dins, shooting uncharged aura spheres, and being hard to hit. Let her chase you a little, then turnaround and take her by surprise. Use either strategy based on the Zelda you face.
Also, beware of this new technique for Zelda: Diamond Diving

Sheik: I think that Sheik wins this one to. Lucario can't do much against needles, is a great weight for comboing, and is very gimp-able.

 

[Giygacoal]

Any thoughts on the Lucario v Squirtle matchup? From what I've experienced, Squirtle seems to have the upper hand in terms of mobility and edgeguarding against Lucario.

It is a very tough matchup. At least I've had a hard time controlling Squirtle's space.

Also on the Diddy matchup, I've been told I (and Lucario players in general) should try wavedashing to pick up the bananas. Maybe it's not AS bad as I've thought. At least there's a possible workaround.

 

[bec]

It is a very tough matchup. At least I've had a hard time controlling Squirtle's space.

Also on the Diddy matchup, I've been told I (and Lucario players in general) should try wavedashing to pick up the bananas. Maybe it's not AS bad as I've thought. At least there's a possible workaround.

my static partner is a diddy player so i have a bit of a better handle on nanners, even when we play serious they don't bother me as much and i can use them against him. some things i've learned/the things he's taught me:
if they're on a platform, jump and press Z to pick it up. takes timing and practise but if you miss you'll just throw out an aerial, which isnt too bad.
wavedash over them to pick them up or just press A if you have the chance
always tech in place/stand up when you trip unless there's only the one nanner and then you can roll if you feel like it. usually they happen to be spaced to where if you roll you will trip again.
best thing to do if a nanner is thrown is shield and then jump and catch it. easy.

dont give the monkey his bananas. monkey want the banana

 

[paxinchristo]

It is a very tough matchup. At least I've had a hard time controlling Squirtle's space.

Also on the Diddy matchup, I've been told I (and Lucario players in general) should try wavedashing to pick up the bananas. Maybe it's not AS bad as I've thought. At least there's a possible workaround.

Have you come up with any good tactics for countering the move (forgot the name) where Squirtle slides across the stage in his shell? That seems to be the toughest one for Lucario.

 

[Giygacoal]

Thanks bec. Now I feel silly for not thinking to tech in place instead of roll.

Have you come up with any good tactics for countering the move (forgot the name) where Squirtle slides across the stage in his shell? That seems to be the toughest one for Lucario.

Nope. That move combined with its other flexible options are indeed why it's such a tough opponent. It might be one of those we just have to play patiently. Aura sphere isn't good enough for poking a character that slippery.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

The best option against Squirtle's side B is run back, pivot grab. In all honesty, I'm starting to play Lucario the same way that I want to play DDD. Platform camp on platforms, throw projectiles from time to time, and then find an opening and punish hard.

 

[bec]

Have you come up with any good tactics for countering the move (forgot the name) where Squirtle slides across the stage in his shell? That seems to be the toughest one for Lucario.

i'd say shield grab but lucario's shield is trash :v
this could help... maybe. if you have the patience to watch it all
darkgun where u at brah come teach the squirtle MU

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

The beginning actually shows a lot. Down tilt can go through squirtle's side B.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

http://www.twitch.tv/amsayoshi

He's streaming right now!

 

[AkashSky]

http://www.twitch.tv/amsayoshi

He's streaming right now!

Quite ironic, the moment I clicked on it he said, Good night bye.

 

[Darkgun]

Squirtle MU? Oh heck, where to begin. For starters, Squirtle is one of those characters. Ya know, the kind that can zip in and out of a threatened space with their wave dash alone? Squirtle can't really control the stage as well as certain larger characters, and is probably closer to Sonic (which is just as annoying to fight if you ask me) in terms of stage presence. I will look and think more on the matchup when I am fully awake, but for now a few tips:

• CC often. Many of Squirtle's attacks can be CC'd to prevent solid punishes. Dtilt is a pretty good way to get the little guy off the ground too. Note: do not CC his dtilt unless it is to go into shield and jump away as the move has very little end lag.
• Watch for Withdraw (sideB). This move is a combo tool, and used in neutral, or even stagger, is a crutch. If you can coax it out of your opponent, punish the move: dtilt or utilt if you are facing him, dash away for a pivot grab if you are not. When [you are] at higher percentages and have center stage, watch for a Water Spout mixup, as the move have a huge hitbox and the potential for a solid vertical kill.
• Shell Shift. Due to the nature of Squirtle's traction and dash turn around, he can perform rather fast actions out of dash turnaround. These include fsmash (easy to do, but situational), usmash (strong, fast, and easy to do), and dsmash (hard to perform). Additionally, Squirtle can pseudo-DACUS (we've nicknamed it SLACUS due to the lazy looking nature of the move) by jump cancelling an up smash out of the first few frames of his dash turnaround. Edit: I forgot to mention that this allows Squirtle to slide across stages. I suppose I was really fallin' asleep last night.
• The DI for dsmash is across Squirtle on last hit. The move can be linked into a variety of other strong options, such as dsmash!
• Try to force lower recoveries, as they are severely limited when compared to Squirtle's higher recovery options.
• Squirtle's dsmash creates low knockback, inward hitboxes, perfect for gimping Lucario at ledge. Recover carefully, and don't be afraid to ES away from the stage to dodge or DT back to safety.
• 3rd jab will not always connect (Don't use Jab 3 unless you intend to tech chase a Fast Faller. Fun suggestion of the day.).

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Have you come up with any good tactics for countering the move (forgot the name) where Squirtle slides across the stage in his shell? That seems to be the toughest one for Lucario.

Crouch-cancel. Or dash attack.

 

[Bane13]

One MU I really want to know how to deal with is Falco. Maybe I'm just bad, but Falco lasers are incredibly difficult for me to get around. Once I do get in, his defensive options keep me from comboing him. The only safe option seems to be hit and run or grabs. Falco's up-B out-prioritizes aura bomb and Falco Phantasm clashes with fair, so gimping him is harder than it should be for the amount of effort it takes to get him off stage. Honestly, I'd go as far to say the MU is 30-70, Falco's favor.

Like I said, though, I could just be bad.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

One MU I really want to know how to deal with is Falco. Maybe I'm just bad, but Falco lasers are incredibly difficult for me to get around. Once I do get in, his defensive options keep me from comboing him. The only safe option seems to be hit and run or grabs. Falco's up-B out-prioritizes aura bomb and Falco Phantasm clashes with fair, so gimping him is harder than it should be for the amount of effort it takes to get him off stage. Honestly, I'd go as far to say the MU is 30-70, Falco's favor.

Like I said, though, I could just be bad.

He is a hard MU. My advice is get a tech-chase going and end it with f-smash. You won't have to worry about gimping with that. Now about his lazers, you don't want to use down-b to get through them, Falco will just capitalize on it. What you want to do is get through them with your shield and prepare to either hit him with an Up-smash side-b combo OoS, or wavedash OoS and punish his attempted grab.

 

[Giygacoal]

@ B Bane13
It is indeed a tough matchup because Lucario's neutral is lacking, while Falco's neutral is one of the best. You'll have to learn how to powershield and perfectly time downb to handle the lasers.

edit: well according to DarkStarStorm downb is a bad idea. At least it's fun. Maybe if you use a charge it could work.

 

[Bane13]

He is a hard MU. My advice is get a tech-chase going and end it with f-smash. You won't have to worry about gimping with that. Now about his lazers, you don't want to use down-b to get through them, Falco will just capitalize on it. What you want to do is get through them with your shield and prepare to either hit him with an Up-smash side-b combo OoS, or wavedash OoS and punish his attempted grab.

From my experience, the problem with down-B is that the lasers will stuff the startup most of the time if you do it on reaction, and even on a good read, it really only works if you space it well and spend a charge. As for shielding them, Lucario's shield doesn't hold up for very long, and if he approaches with the lasers while I block, I feel like I'm just stuck in blockstun until he grabs or I get shield stabbed.

Powershielding the lasers does seem like it would interrupt Falco's neutral, though, and I will definitely keep the tech-chase fsmash in mind. Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[Risky]

Falco is super duper easy to kill. Like one touch kind of kill. Comboing spacies usually involves Usmash 1-2 hits into grab, or FP combos at early %'s. Once they're around 40-50 any Usmash can link into a big aura sphere and kill if it's near the edge (especially true for Falco), or be very close to it.

Neutral is pretty annoying against lasers. They only do 1% at long range though so trying to jockey with him in neutral with Shadow Ball isn't the worst. If you land even 1 you've done much more work. Powershielding is of course an invaluable tool to have against it, but being under pressure isn't where Lucario wants to be so it isn't an easy time. Use platforms a lot. Since you only need 1-2 actual hits to kill Falco DT -> Dtilt -> FP or whichever followup is appropriate, is very good when you know he's going to laser.