Glide Nerf is being considered for Brawl+

[Slashy]

Glide Stop: [phantom wings]
C29131B0 00000005
8095007C 80840038
2C040084 40820014
388000FF 80B40020
80A5000C 90850004
809900AC 00000000

-Attacking or canceling the glide always goes into
 the fall state as if it were the last jump

-You lose all your jumps when you glide so if 
your hit out, you only have your other recoveries to save you

Though oddly he is getting a buff

Multiuse Icarus Wings: [phantom wings]
80000000 80623320
80000001 00000000
60000006 00000000
60000003 00000001
4A001000 00000000
4A101001 00000000
30000000 00000017
58010000 00000004
DE000000 80008180
58010000 00000060
DE000000 80008180
58010000 00000070
58010000 00000020
58010000 0000001C
90010002 00000004
86410002 20000000
80100001 00000008
62000000 00000001
E200000F 00000000
80000001 00000000
80100000 00000244
62000000 00000000
E0000000 80008000

Allows pit to use his Icarus Wings multiple times, but the 
amount of time left degrades on a cumulative scale.

Multiuse Icarus Wings: [phantom wings] (compatible for double gct method)

 48000000 80B87C28
 58010000 00000154
 58010000 00000000
 90010000 00000030
80000001 00000000
60000006 00000000
60000003 00000001
4A001000 00000000
4A101001 00000000
30000000 00000017
58010000 00000004
DE000000 80008180
58010000 00000060
DE000000 80008180
58010000 00000070
58010000 00000020
58010000 0000001C
90010002 00000004
86410002 20000000
80100001 00000008
62000000 00000001
E200000F 00000000
80000001 00000000
80100000 00000244
62000000 00000000
E0000000 80008000

You can probably tell I don't play as Pit, but I don't think this is a good idea.

 

[drag0nfeather]

Isn't Pit perfectly middle tier? Why change him?

Addendum: Maybe change his Angel Ring tech (sliding on the ground after starting it in the air).

Addendum 2: Holy mother, I was about to change all of the above when kupo performs some ninja-fu and replies the crap out of me.

 

[kupo15]

Isn't Pit perfectly middle tier? Why change him?

Addendum: Maybe change his Angel Ring tech (sliding on the ground after starting it in the air).

Vbrawl andd brawl+ are not comparable at all and the tier list does nothing

At argument

Yes, gliding is not broken, but I think it needs to be reworked. In a game where the object is to knock your opponent off the stage, it is a poor design to have characters transcend that with an ability to recover from anywhere even if its not broken. Not only can they recover from anywhere, but they also have an extra attack in their arsenal over the rest of the cast.

Gliding is equal to if not better than an up b and acts like an up b so it should be treated similar to an up b. Here are the restrictions I want to give to make it act like somewhat like an up b:

-Attacking or canceling the glide always goes into the fall state as if it were the last jump
-You lose all your jumps when you glide so if your hit out, you have your other recovery moves to save you

Basically, you have to think about how to use the glide recovery. Even with these two nerfs to the gliding mechanic, these three characters still have an advantage over the rest of the cast by having two "up b's" instead of just one.

How it affects characters: (compensation)

Pit. It works nicely for giving him his up b back
Zard: We can speed up his gliding start phase and speed up his velocity
MK: Works wonders all around (he has 5 mid jumps and 5 recovery moves (6 if you count up b as 2))

So you know, the up b code allows pit to get his up b back when he cancels it. Imagine the new wing tricks you are getting as a trade for actually learning how to glide well and at the right time. Like try this:

Wing refresh
3 jumps
Up b
Attack
Up b

Imagine being able to up b straight from the ground

Lulz. Didn't know mindless recovering or little to no punishment from a glide was a bad thing

Now I can finally post some vids of my Brawl+ pit to prove people wrong. Pit is awesome in brawl+.

Isn't Pit perfectly middle tier? Why change him?

Addendum: Maybe change his Angel Ring tech (sliding on the ground after starting it in the air).

Addendum 2: Holy mother, I was about to change all of the above when kupo performs some ninja-fu and replies the crap out of me.

Lol, only the first line was. Let me make that clear. xD

You can probably tell I don't play as Pit, but I don't think this is a good idea.

Bingo

 

[drag0nfeather]

-Attacking or canceling the glide always goes into
 the fall state as if it were the last jump

-You lose all your jumps when you glide so if 
your hit out, you only have your other recoveries to save you

...

Allows pit to use his Icarus Wings multiple times, but the 
amount of time left degrades on a cumulative scale.

Multiuse Icarus Wings: [phantom wings] (compatible for double gct method)

Here's what I don't understand: what do you refer to by "other recoveries?" I mean, do you refer to the third mid-air jump or the Wings of Icarus by "the last jump?"

Next, is it like ROB's Robo-Burner? Is that the right name? I'm too lazy to check Smash Wiki. If that isn't familiar, I'm talking about ROB's third jump.
What I'm concerned with is if you can still wing refresh? By wing refresh, I mean jumping in between uses of the Wings of Icarus to be able to use the WoI longer the next time you activate them.

And what's the difference between the first "Multiuse Icarus Wings" code and the latter (second)?

In a game where the object is to knock your opponent off the stage, it is a poor design to have characters transcend that with an ability to recover from anywhere even if its not broken. Not only can they recover from anywhere, but they also have an extra attack in their arsenal over the rest of the cast.

-You lose all your jumps when you glide so if your hit out, you only have up b to save you

Zard: We can speed up his gliding start phase and speed up his velocity
MK: Works wonders all around (he has 5 mid jumps and 5 recovery moves (6 if you count up b as 2))

Nerfing Pit in this way seems to strengthen MK. Is this nerf being applied equally to MK?

Re: the point preceded by a hyphen: Is this the case whether you attack and cancel out of the glide as well?

Who's Zard and Pit has the fastest glide. What's the reason for speeding it up further?

Penultimately, please elaborate on your short "re:MK."

Lastly, being hit out of the WoI means you can't use it again? i.e. you fall into a freefall state?

 

[kupo15]

Here's what I don't understand: what do you refer to by "other recoveries?" I mean, do you refer to the third mid-air jump or the Wings of Icarus by "the last jump?"

For pit it would be up b, but for MK it would be his tornado or shuttle or whatever. Zard would also be his up b.

What I'm concerned with is if you can still wing refresh?

Wing refresh is untouched. Look at my edited post

And what's the difference between the first "Multiuse Icarus Wings" code and the latter (second)?

A certain method of loading codes. They do the same thing

Nerfing Pit in this way seems to strengthen MK. Is this nerf being applied equally to MK?

Yes. To ALL gliders (3 of them)

Re: the point preceded by a hyphen: Is this the case whether you attack and cancel out of the glide as well?

Only if you don't cancel it on the ground. And also, a landing lag sped up from landing from the fall state is being debated and is something I am pushing for. I think that MK would be more manageable with this code. If you knock him from his glide, he only has his other recoveries which are predictable to help. You can easily mirror shield them. MKs tornado also can't get much height due to a code either. Also, glides don't snap to the ledge below the stage anymore so you can either spike him with the dtilt and he is screwed, or even simple jump mirror shielding the glide attack would kill him because he goes into the fall state.

Who's Zard and Pit has the fastest glide. What's the reason for speeding it up further?

Only zards glide would be sped up since his is arguable the worst of the 3. We are also considering making his glair spike ;P

Penultimately, please elaborate on your short "re:MK."

MK doesn't get any compensation for this because he still has the best recovery. I'll restate what I said earlier.I think that MK would be more manageable with this code. If you knock him from his glide, he only has his other recoveries which are predictable to help. You can easily mirror shield them. MKs tornado also can't get much height due to a code either. Also, glides don't snap to the ledge below the stage anymore so you can either spike him with the dtilt and he is screwed, or even simple jump mirror shielding the glide attack would kill him because he goes into the fall state.

Lastly, being hit out of the WoI means you can't use it again? i.e. you fall into a freefall state?

Getting hit out is no different than vbrawl so you can still attack and defend yourself. You get your up b back only if you cancel the wings. It may be possible to have pit get his wings back after getting hit only but I'm not sure which is better without testing. That code would also be harder to make. Thing is, in both cases, your pretty much toast under the stage. Your only hope is to hug the wall and wall jump tech. Teching is easier by the way.

I like this code because we are here to make a solid game and to tweak things that goes against the fundamentals of smash while still keeping the mechanic. That is why I like this code despite me "nerfing" my own character if you will. But his up b compensation is a better trade for being smart with your glide. You can still do your glide attack cancels and combo from there and you have more up b utility. Also in brawl+, you have a lot of options you don't have in vbrawl so using other new tactics are better than that random glide attack you do not near the ground to try something new.

 

[drag0nfeather]

I skimmed over what you posted. I might read in-depth into it later.

I didn't know you meant Charizard when you said "Zard."

 

[kupo15]

Actually, the pit up b code gives pit his up b back when he cancels it and when he is hit out. A better edge guarding game is a better deal than the situational gliding situations. Mk is much more manageable. He glides in? Shoot him with an arrow then mirror shield. Mk glides in, mirror shield the glide attack and he dies

 

[Xiahou Dun]

So Gliding on your last jump no longer puts you in Freefall, but any glide takes away all your jumps and leaves you with just your Up B right?

And instead of decreasing time each time or something why not give Pit's Up B a 3 use limit for when he's hit out of it like a tether restriction?

 

[Rogue Pit]

Than allow him to actually grab the ledge when vertically recovering.

 

[Slashy]

So Gliding on your last jump no longer puts you in Freefall, but any glide takes away all your jumps and leaves you with just your Up B right?

And instead of decreasing time each time or something why not give Pit's Up B a 3 use limit for when he's hit out of it like a tether restriction?

All glides put you in fall special (the state where you are vulnerable and can do no other actions other than move, usually after a recovery move in the air)

 

[kupo15]

Than allow him to actually grab the ledge when vertically recovering.

Why? Getting knocked out doesn't cause loss of up b and you can attack out and still get an up b. The code is literally an infinite up b unless you are taken by wing fatigue or run out the timer. You can still up b snap to the ledge

 

[CorruptFate]

I have yet to try B+, (but I will get to at my tourney this Saturday) but as is Pit doesn't die unless you gimp his WoI or he is hit to hard to recover. So am I wrong to asume that he would have at least the use of three decend to good WoIs? I know that people can recover from almost anywhere on the screen for the most part. But do you really need to make it better? I haven't tried B+ yet, so I could be very wrong in thinking this but that does sound a bit over powered. I guess I can't really say until I have tired...

 

[Slashy]

I have yet to try B+, (but I will get to at my tourney this Saturday) but as is Pit doesn't die unless you gimp his WoI or he is hit to hard to recover. So am I wrong to asume that he would have at least the use of three decend to good WoIs? I know that people can recover from almost anywhere on the screen for the most part. But do you really need to make it better? I haven't tried B+ yet, so I could be very wrong in thinking this but that does sound a bit over powered. I guess I can't really say until I have tired...

That is true, but you lose gliding as an extra recovery.

I always saw Wings of Icarus as being a risky move. If you're forced to rely on it, you probably weren't planning on your recovery very well.

 

[CorruptFate]

Its true that WoI is a ricky move right now, and does get used as a recovery unless you need it. But giving me a few more of those and a weaker glide still sounds like a good upgrade. The only reason I ever glide is because it gives endless distance and only costs one jump (or if I do that ******** fake glide thing). And if I could I would take one or Two more WoIs and get a glide that sends me into FF, but it still comes off as a bit to strong of an upgrade to me.

As it is right now, Pit can make it back to the stage from most anywhere with out much trouble (if people arn't really trying to stop you) with just your jumps and one WoI. If you were to make it so even if I get hit out of one of my WoIs but still have another 2-3 decend ones, it wouldn't be very hard to make it back at all. I just use my Jumps to get about where I wanta be, then either: WoI to fly to the other side of the stage (and if I don't make it, I just use another one); WoI very high up above the stage fall/WoI down on to the stage; just get back to the stage and if you hit me, it really doesn't matter if I get hit because I got closer and can just WoI again.

Over all, this sounds like its just like Robs recovery how it is in Brawl but it will last longer, you will have more mobilty, will regain "fuel" when you grab the edge, along with the other benifits that WoI has (such as the wind push effect).

 

[Rogue Pit]

Why? Getting knocked out doesn't cause loss of up b and you can attack out and still get an up b. The code is literally an infinite up b unless you are taken by wing fatigue or run out the timer. You can still up b snap to the ledge

LOL cool, I'll just Jump a couple of times, WoI Attack, than WoI some more, and if my timer is about to run out, I'll attack out than WoI some more. Good job nerfing a broken recovery, I'll abuse this to the max.

 

[kupo15]

LOL cool, I'll just Jump a couple of times, WoI Attack, than WoI some more, and if my timer is about to run out, I'll attack out than WoI some more. Good job nerfing a broken recovery, I'll abuse this to the max.

absolutely wrong. If you use the woi in the way you described, you would never have enough time to abuse it AND make it back due to wing fatigue. You only have enough time to make it back IF you are above the stage. If you are stage level or below when trying to be risky, you will die.

 

[Rogue Pit]

absolutely wrong. If you use the woi in the way you described, you would never have enough time to abuse it AND make it back due to wing fatigue. You only have enough time to make it back IF you are above the stage. If you are stage level or below when trying to be risky, you will die.

Than when vertically returning up to the stage and for some ODD REASON your cant grab the ledge and your hit with like a dtilt than similarly with the same situation you gave me, you wont be able to make it back to the stage like you said before. Thats really dumb.

 

[kupo15]

Than when vertically returning up to the stage and for some ODD REASON your cant grab the ledge and your hit with like a dtilt than similarly with the same situation you gave me, you wont be able to make it back to the stage like you said before. Thats really dumb.

Well, firstly, we are planning to get ledge techiing which means you tech the dtilt into an immediate WoI which snaps you to the ledge. There isn't anything odd about not grabbing on the way up. It only makes sense that you grab it on the way down. If you compare brawl+ to vbrawl then you could say a lot of things are really dumb, but for me comparing vbrawl to brawl+, there is a lot dumb things vbrawl did

 

[Valuno]

Well, firstly, we are planning to get ledge techiing which means you tech the dtilt into an immediate WoI which snaps you to the ledge. There isn't anything odd about not grabbing on the way up. It only makes sense that you grab it on the way down. If you compare brawl+ to vbrawl then you could say a lot of things are really dumb, but for me comparing vbrawl to brawl+, there is a lot dumb things vbrawl did

Wow! That sounds amazingly awesome... I remember ledge teching endlessly in melee only to still get killed lol....

 

[Rogue Pit]

The gliding nerf is apparently already in effect why not take it off of pit until the new WoI codes are made. Pit got retardly nerfed, as he depends on his glide, if one thing goes wrong hes in a really bad situation. Metaknight doesn't need to glide.

 

[Coffee™]

Brawl+ threads are no longer allowed in character specific boards. I'd move this to the the appropriate board but based on the content of the thread I don't think it is well suited for there either so I'm just going to lock it.