Gliding underneath the stage.

[Prawn]

First M2K did it to meep,

and now it was done to me in tournament game 3 on smashville yesterday.

This. Is. ****ing. Stupid. And this is a thread to find out what we can do to counteract this stupid ****ing tactic. Here some possible ideas I thought of on the ride home:

1. Pending you're not facing M2K, Dojo etc, failures in gliding/drill/any other options could be punished with a bair or bair stage spike. Be warned however, this is putting you in an extremely vulnerable situation



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2. Don't play on smashville, if the opponent bans FD, there are other options such as:

Yoshi's Island - Sure this stage isnt nearly as good as smashville for ICs, but fact is they're gonna have a tougher time running the clock here.

Luigis Mansion - If this stage is legal it could pose a threat to MKs in this matchup

PS1 - Sure the stage is gigantic and campable, but they can't glide under and the neutral transformation isn't that bad for ICs.

Battlefield - The most obvious choice but you should be winning game 1 on this stage or YI.

Also here's a list of stages I haven't really thought about that could help, if legal that is:

PS2
Castlesiege?
Green Greens??(If legal.


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3. An interesting tidbit to mention is the old glitch found where Nana floats under the lip of the stage as Popo stands on top of it. I know you can fair/other aerials in this state but is blizzard possible? And if so is it safe/useful enough to try in game?


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Please offer more discussion, this problem needs to be addressed and we need to beat it, I'm pissed about losing my set to this noob tactic.

 

[Funen1]

I've always considered continuously gliding under the stage as a form of stalling. It's avoiding any and all conflict, simple as that.

And Prawn, I'm not sure there really is anything the ICs can do about it (this is assuming, of course, that the MK doesn't mess up). There's a very good reason why the ICs are bad offstage (especially vs. MK), and this situation is no different. Taking them to certain stages to prevent this is also flawed in theory. Here's how people could get around it:

Round 1: The MK player strikes Yoshi's Island and PS1. No matter what you choose, you will be forced to play on a stage where he can glide-stall you for the win.

Round 2: Your counterpick, so take him somewhere where he can't glide-stall. Since losing here means you lose the set, assume that, for the sake of this argument, you win and bring the set to a third game.

Round 3: The MK counterpicks Smashville, Battlefield, FD (if he's feeling lucky), or any other counterpick stage that the ICs are bad on. There's no way you can ban all of these stages, so one of them will always be available. This strategy also works for best-of-5 sets.

 

[Prawn]

I find that gliding under smashville and having the moving platform as an option has always been the easiest stage to do it on IMO.

 

[ch33s3]

As annoying as it is, the way to not get stalled is to not fall behind.

 

[DanGR]

Seibrik did this to me. >.>

And I've done it to people too! :D

Assuming there's a ledge grab rule in place, and your tournament has you pick a random stage for the starting stage... simply ban Smashville. You're screwed on the other counterpicks anyways. You may as well ban the only starter stage that they can abuse this with so you can hope you win on the starter, then lose on the CP (unless you've got a good secondary for that stage, of course), and then take them to a starter and win the third.

If there isn't a ledge grab rule in place... you're screwed. Pick a different character.

And thus... placing even more importance on winning the first game. <.<

 

[Smasher89]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMdGw8rn0Ss

I think dair outprioritises side b, probably same with uair, and another thing, we are ICplayers, time to learn to use Nanafloat at ledge effectively...

 

[solecalibur]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMdGw8rn0Ss

I think dair outprioritises side b, probably same with uair, and another thing, we are ICplayers, time to learn to use Nanafloat at ledge effectively...

I'd also let you know from that video that MKs dont shuttle loop as often as they use to recover but that is an interesting trick to do if you see him doing it

But from the OP I recommend any stage that is not campy and you can not glide under (You said BF was a good stage but meta can glide under it)

PS1 is an ok stage to play vs Meta but there are a lot of campy aspects in the air you can use and stage change is a pretty campy aspect as well (fire and earth part of the stage maybe even water)

 

[HolyChef]

I definitely asked about this in the Q&A thread but I do think this deserves a thread. I'm just waiting for sauc3 to say that this is banned................. at like 1 tourney

Anyway I'm definitely banning smashville if I have to fight an mk or MM'ing the tourney host and doing this before the tourney.

There usually is a ledge grab rule so ice blocks should help if they try for the platform but its a different story if they have a stock lead.

Something mad risky to do would to go off the stage and time an upB to intercept the mk. Someone test this!

 

[ch33s3]

MKs have gotten smart. They force us to strike down to SV or Lylat, usually, because they strike BF and FD. SV is the better choice there, obviously. Just get used to MKs going under the stage, it will happen, a lot. Get an early lead, force an approach, get a grab, and then you don't need to worry about them going underneath. if they do, force them to ledge grab by being ready to punish a landing on the platform, that will run up their grab limit quickly, especially if you pressure the ledge and force them to ledgehop once or twice. It's not that bad, really. Think of it as what we can do to olimar once we have a lead.

 

[Prawn]

There's a new rule that I'm putting into my tournaments taken from the MD/VA area,

basically you can only grab the ledge 5(maybe 6?)times before you have to land on the stage or a platform(unless you're being hit off of the side by attacks of course). If you break the rule you surrender a stock.

That makes it so SV is the only neutral you can abuse this with(the moving platform allows mks to land in relative safety)

 

[sauc3]

I definitely asked about this in the Q&A thread but I do think this deserves a thread. I'm just waiting for sauc3 to say that this is banned................. at like 1 tourney

Anyway I'm definitely banning smashville if I have to fight an mk or MM'ing the tourney host and doing this before the tourney.

There usually is a ledge grab rule so ice blocks should help if they try for the platform but its a different story if they have a stock lead.

Something mad risky to do would to go off the stage and time an upB to intercept the mk. Someone test this!

its banned at canadian tourneys, so id say more than 1 lol

 

[swordgard]

its banned at canadian tourneys, so id say more than 1 lol

Stop assuming Ontario=canada please, its getting somewhat irritating.

 

[Teh Future]

This is banned at every tourney, its called stalling...

 

[xDD-Master]

Just a small idea, what about jumping on the plattform while MK is gliding under the edge ?... Sure its still dangerous when MK begins to attack you from below, with UAirs (Especially Nana is in high dangerous :S), but yeah that kinda forces him to change his stalling-tactic a bit. So what do you think ?

(Sorry for necro)

 

[Prawn]

then he goes on the stage lol.

this tactic is pretty unbeatable vs ics

 

[xDD-Master]

It just was a small idea as I said xD

But well, have MK in the middle of the stage than having him off stage x3

 

[DMG]

This is banned at every tourney, its called stalling...

Are you sure? Who has officially declared that this was stalling?

Is MK untouchable while doing this? Is he completely invincible?


Because this isn't viewed as stalling for everyone, you could try to answer what to do about it instead of just saying "Lol, they can't do that", especially when it's something that hasn't been defined yet as stalling. It would be one thing if someone was asking about what to do about IDC, but this is a legit question.

Take planking for example. What would you do if MK planks you? You could say "Lol we have an edge grab limit, he can't plank", or you could say "Well he has a strong edge game and we don't have a ton of options, the best thing to aim for would be a well spaced Blizzard/alternating Ice Blocks/etc"

 

[Prawn]

Yeah the MK needs to be really good to pull this off flawlessly. Especially for the amount of time, the only reason it would be easy is if he had a strong lead and not a lot time left.

Best way to counteract this is to never be down in percent, and ESPECIALLY stock.

 

[DMG]

Also, I would like to point out that this uses up edge grabs VERY slowly. He eats up the clock Gliding and jumping away from the stage to get a good glide. He can also eat up time at the end of his glide by going for the platform/going vertical instead of grabbing the edge immediately.

 

[Prawn]

I'm not calling for a ban at all. I've changed my opinion.

I genuinely think that with patience/smart play we can beat this.

 

[l!nk_aut]

use bungie jumping xD


nah i don´t relly know what to do against this :/

 

[Attila_]

as a TO in aus, i would call this stalling.

in japan there is a rule where a player who travels under the stage must land on the stage (not a platform) before they are allowed to do it again. i like this rule personally.

 

[Smoom77]

We were just talking about that. Meta can go under the stage on Smashville, jump on the moving platform, then go back under. Repeat and repeat.

 

[Masterchef1123]

Usually at my tournament camping/stalling is banned, because of the fact it makes it impossible for the other opponent to win
I mean nobody likes it when your opponent is Pit and they keep jumping off the edge and using there recovery to there advantage

 

[KiRdaY]

Best I could do against this is shoot desynched ice blocks off the side of the stage, and hope one hits mk on the way back up, and hopefully it disrupts their rhythm, thus hopefully causing some kind of mistake, otherwise, its all some risky stuff trying to avoid it

 

[FrozenHobo]

i had a friend try this against me. i ran of the stage, did an aerial pivot ice block -> resync-> tether. i've never loved the shape of SV so much.

 

[theunabletable]

I do this in friendlies when I face ICs.

Idk it seems really easy to do this to ICs.

I've been called a *** more than a few times

 

[swordgard]

Usually at my tournament camping/stalling is banned, because of the fact it makes it impossible for the other opponent to win
I mean nobody likes it when your opponent is Pit and they keep jumping off the edge and using there recovery to there advantage

Nobody likes scrubs either.

 

[Sieguest]

Usually at my tournament camping/stalling is banned, because of the fact it makes it impossible for the other opponent to win
I mean nobody likes it when your opponent is Pit and they keep jumping off the edge and using there recovery to there advantage

Here's the catch, they only way to call stalling with an opponent gliding under the stage continuously is by exceeding the number of ledge grabs allowed. But because MK can glide under the stage, still have a few jumps to kill even more time and another special that leads into a glide to kill even more time. He can get a lead, and then eat off an enormous amount of time, if not the whole rest of the match, by gliding under the stage.

 

[rchau]

ya just ban intentional scrooging. sad that this is all MK has to do to win, and that the user, if he wants to be g*y and win, can do so. I thought about it before, but didn't kno people would actually do it, especially M2K (who i hear, hates camping with a passion). It just seems like M2K does everything he can outside and in the game to win. Picking the best character, always having port4, etc, lol.

Even tho its lame, i think its a viable defensive strategy against a character that can z2d w/ 1 grab. Even tho its skill-less.

As annoying as it is, the way to not get stalled is to not fall behind.

This.

 

[DMG]

To not fall behind EVER though is to ask yourself to not be human, or to be significantly better than everyone else. Like being so good that you can win with DK vs Dedede.

 

[ch33s3]

To not fall behind EVER though is to ask yourself to not be human, or to be significantly better than everyone else. Like being so good that you can win with DK vs Dedede.

You just can't ever fall behind enough where scrooging becomes a problem. No MK is going to risk scrooging/planking with a very small lead. The risk of getting hit by an ice block/blizzard/aerial/whatever is too high, and then MK would have to approach. Falling behind a stock, or losing nana before MK loses a stock is when you have issues.

 

[DMG]

20%. That would take a lot of Ice Blocks/mistakes for MK to take that damage.

 

[ch33s3]

20%. That would take a lot of Ice Blocks/mistakes for MK to take that damage.

20% is only one bair, 4 sets of ice blocks, one good blizzard, etc. It's really not enough. 50% would be where I start to get worried.

 

[Umpadumpalump]

Isn't stalling why they add a time limit on matches in a tournament?

 

[DMG]

Time limits are to get the tournament to run on a reasonable time.

Timers are completely necessary, the downside is that people can try to exploit them to win.

 

[Umpadumpalump]

This might sound like a dumb question, but when the time runs out on a stock match doesn't it go to sudden death?

 

[FrozenHobo]

This might sound like a dumb question, but when the time runs out on a stock match doesn't it go to sudden death?

 

[Umpadumpalump]

lol, I asked because I've never seen it happen.

 

[Arcade]

No. Whoever has the least % wins in the event of a time out in tournament games.