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God or Big Bang/Evolution: Where do we Come From?

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Sephiroth27

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You need to settle down. Just because you are wrong doesn't mean that you can spread lies to get people to think the way you do. You are just sitting there typing very angrily. You try and try to defend evolution when there is no exact proof of it whatsoever. Want to know what's funny? I can't prove God, but I know He is there. You, however, can't prove evolution and don't know if it really happend. You can read a bunch of books on evolution by the smartest scientists in the world, but can NEVER be absolutely certain that it really happend. The only reason why there are books/theories like that is because people want to get God out of the picture. Alot of people have gotten very comfortable relying on man and man alone. It is a very dangerous thing. If you want to read a book, read the Evolution Cruncher. It takes a ton of theories on evolution and disproves them. (either that or leave you with mind boggling questions on how scientists came up with some ridiculous evolutionary theories). There should be no denying that some evolutionists have wacked out theories. It seems like they'll do/say anything just so people will believe in their way. I wasn't a Christian before, and I always wondered why Christians were so happy all the time. Why they believed in something that they can't even see or explain. Now I know, and I couldn't be happier.
 

Jimayo

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Messages
57
Sephiroth27 said:
You need to settle down. Just because you are wrong doesn't mean that you can spread lies to get people to think the way you do. You are just sitting there typing very angrily.
That wasn't anger, you just want to believe it was anger cause you believe evolution contradicts your beliefs.

Sephiroth27 said:
You try and try to defend evolution when there is no exact proof of it whatsoever.
What proof of there is god?

Sephiroth27 said:
Want to know what's funny? I can't prove God, but I know He is there.
No you believe he is there. There is a huge difference between knowledge and belief. Don't let logic get in your way.

Sephiroth27 said:
You, however, can't prove evolution and don't know if it really happend.
There's far more evidence in evolution than there is in God.

Sephiroth27 said:
You can read a bunch of books on evolution by the smartest scientists in the world, but can NEVER be absolutely certain that it really happend. The only reason why there are books/theories like that is because people want to get God out of the picture.
Bull****. More scientists are religious than people like you want to believe.

Sephiroth27 said:
Alot of people have gotten very comfortable relying on man and man alone. It is a very dangerous thing.
Why?

Sephiroth27 said:
If you want to read a book, read the Evolution Cruncher. It takes a ton of theories on evolution and disproves them.
Seen it, it's a bunch of crap and pseudo-science.

Sephiroth27 said:
(either that or leave you with mind boggling questions on how scientists came up with some ridiculous evolutionary theories). There should be no denying that some evolutionists have wacked out theories. It seems like they'll do/say anything just so people will believe in their way. I wasn't a Christian before, and I always wondered why Christians were so happy all the time. Why they believed in something that they can't even see or explain. Now I know, and I couldn't be happier.
So you had no direction in your life and got direction from religion so obviously it is true.
 

Dylock9

Smash Rookie
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Messages
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I'm sure no one will ever read this but some facts:

People who believe in evolution can still believe in god. Evolution never contradicts the bible, some claim it does, however, evolution is a continuing occurrence and is proven now by literally anyone studying anything including politics and business on an almost daily basis. I for one am a Catholic, but evolution doesn't contradict that if you know the real theory, which most people don't.


So, here is the theory, in it's most basic and elegant:

The theory of evolution as Darwin stated it, was based on two incontravertable facts which make one inescapable conclusion. The facts are that all animals and plants pass on traits to their offspring (it happens to be DNA, but he didn't know that, he thought it was the protein). You can't deny that people pass on traits to their kids, blue eyed parents have blue eyed kids. No contradiction with god or the bible. The second fact was that there is variation, even identical twins aren't completely identical. Kids are not clones of their parents. Okay, two facts, no contradiction with the bible.

The conclusion, Some offspring (progeny) will have advantages over others. When we say advantages, it could be anything. You might be the smartest person in the world, but if you don't have kids, your genetic line ends with you. Similarly, the most peaceful civilization may be sacked, or an entire species whiped out if it doesn't have a certain disease immunity. For various reasons, the most frequent being climate change, species go extinct. Once again, it's no secret that species go extinct all the time, and not just because of people. This occurred to Darwin after studying thousands of species, and coincidently, while he was sick, and thought that he would die.

The genetic lines which end will hedge the variation in a certain direction. All in all, no conflict with God, or any religion, just common sense outlined in a scientific way. That is Evolution. If you don't believe in that, you're an idiot regardless of religion, because evolution has nothing to do with religion. People just *think* it does.

Here's where the conflict comes in:

Everyone says "monkeys are way different from humans", yes, but that's because monkeys compete with monkeys more than monkeys compete with caterpillars. What I mean by that: monkeys were wiped out by early humans like cro-magnans. Tribes of monkeys in other areas survived. Neandthals whiped out all cro-magnans, there is fossil evidence of this. Eventually, modern humans wiped out prehistoric man. The last part of us to develop was the voice box. That's right, there are tons of fossils, of early humans with primitive voice boxes. Now, you may choose to believe that all this fossil evidence is doctored and that the many many missing links between humans and monkeys are all falsified. You may choose to believe that, but evolution as defined is still real regardless. What i said above in the theory still occurrs, regardless of origins.

However it turns out that it would have to be a massive conspiracy. Every scientist doing research would have to change the evidence. The chemists who developed carbon dating, the archaeologists who found the fossils (because geographicly they all fit the same puzzle), the biologists who examine DNA, and the Veteranarians that name and catalog animal musculature and similarities. You see, everyone in the world, studying, is coming to the same conclusion, so to say it is a conspiracy is far fetched.

When people say there is no proof of evolution, they just aren't looking. Evolution is proven in almost every scientific area having anything to do with life. Chemistry, Zoology, Archeology, Botany, Pathology, even Business, all come to the same conclusion. Evolution is not only real, but going on as we speak on levels as small as bird flu mutations, to as big as evolution of government. There is proof, not only in every biology book of the 20th century, but right in front of you everyday. People get even more confused when they hear "Theory of evolution" because it's a *scientific* theory, like the "Theory of Gravity." It's very easy to prove both. Scientific theory has a different meaning than most are familiar with.

I hope that cleared some things up. It's important to know the theory and talk about it when you say it's not real. Most say "humans didn't come from monkeys!" thats an extrapolation of the obvious, not the theory itself.
 

Dylock9

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Joined
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Also, I think it's important when you talk about evolution not to get too technical. All the technical evidence is there, like the jaw bone, but it's way simpler than that. You don't need a diagram to notice that kids look like their parents. Evolution is simple stuff.

As for the big bang, thats not a well proven theory and is based on less evidence, mainly of the universes expansion (which isn't enough evidence for me).

If you're going to argue with science, pick ideas which have less evidence. Trying to disprove evolution is literally like tackling the chemical composition of water. We've measured it, it's everywhere! There are still plenty of ideas which support the existence of God.

I would recommend reading The Origins of Species first. It's easy reading and it's the theory which is the foundation for all biology today. It just so happens to expand and correlate to all existence as we know it. I mean, Stephen Gould (biology prof at harvard) shows evidence of evolution in baseball for pete's sake.
 

Sephiroth27

Smash Ace
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Janesville, Wisconsin
Saying that the Evolution Cruncher is “a bunch of crap and pseudo-science” is a very poor way of defending your side of the situation. I could say that about every evolution related topic if I wanted to. There is another thing I would like to point out. I don’t care how religious anybody is. Being religious does not make you a good person. Religion does not save you.

Also, to clarify things, I had no direction in my life before. I got direction from God, NOT religion.
 

Jimayo

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Messages
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Vatican Astronomer says ID not science:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,176050,00.html


The scientific theory is observation. You observe something. You develop a hypothesis. You test it. If it holds up, it becomes a theory. You test it some more. It's all observations and what we think explains our observations. It is costantly changing, and more than one theory can be said to explain things. Science is no flat-out thing. It's us guessing.

No one runs around making up hypothesis and testing them, that is COMPLETELY wrong.

A hypothesis is simple: According to the laws of science accepted to be true, we expect that ____ experiment will give ____ result.

Its when an experiment or testing stage gives result in CONTRARY to a hypotheis that the need for a new theory is present.

This experiment then gets performed several more times to make sure the result is true, and then people try and find a solution to this problem.

This solution then becomes the hypothesis for future experiments, and either holds, or fails.

When you can point to me what testing was done, what hypothesis were made and how they failed in regards to ID, you can talk about science.

The hypothesis gaff shows a real lack of understanding of the scientific method.

15 answers to creationist nonsense by Scientific America: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000D4FEC-7D5B-1D07-8E49809EC588EEDF&pageNumber=1&catID=2

Also, to clarify things, I had no direction in my life before. I got direction from God, NOT religion.
No, you didn't. Did god talk to you personally and tell you what you need to do? No, you got your answers from a religion, and you believe those answers come from God.
 

Sephiroth27

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Messages
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Janesville, Wisconsin
Jimayo said:
Vatican Astronomer says ID not science:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,176050,00.html





No one runs around making up hypothesis and testing them, that is COMPLETELY wrong.

A hypothesis is simple: According to the laws of science accepted to be true, we expect that ____ experiment will give ____ result.

Its when an experiment or testing stage gives result in CONTRARY to a hypotheis that the need for a new theory is present.

This experiment then gets performed several more times to make sure the result is true, and then people try and find a solution to this problem.

This solution then becomes the hypothesis for future experiments, and either holds, or fails.

When you can point to me what testing was done, what hypothesis were made and how they failed in regards to ID, you can talk about science.

The hypothesis gaff shows a real lack of understanding of the scientific method.

15 answers to creationist nonsense by Scientific America: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000D4FEC-7D5B-1D07-8E49809EC588EEDF&pageNumber=1&catID=2



No, you didn't. Did god talk to you personally and tell you what you need to do? No, you got your answers from a religion, and you believe those answers come from God.
If you are not a Christian, don't tell me where I got my answers from. Christians believe that God can indeed talk to you personally. That’s like saying a medicine won’t cure your problem, the science that made that particular medicine will. Study the subject first, then post.
 

snex

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Sephiroth27 said:
If you are not a Christian, don't tell me where I got my answers from. Christians believe that God can indeed talk to you personally. That’s like saying a medicine won’t cure your problem, the science that made that particular medicine will. Study the subject first, then post.
why should anybody care what you claim god tells you when there are a billion other people claiming that god tells them the opposite? none of you have any evidence to support your case, and many of you (not you, however) agree with modern science. if there is a god, im more inclined to believe those that agree with modern science about his opinions.
 

tsetse

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snex said:
why should anybody care what you claim god tells you when there are a billion other people claiming that god tells them the opposite? none of you have any evidence to support your case, and many of you (not you, however) agree with modern science. if there is a god, im more inclined to believe those that agree with modern science about his opinions.
I agree with snex, GOD does exist.
 

Crimson King

I am become death
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Crimson King said:
4. We are in the DEBATE Hall. As in arguing for the sake of getting your opinion across/re-enforcing your beliefs/whatever. One line posts cannot say anything important or worth reading and is therefore SPAM. Final warning as this has a must read line in the topic.
Yea, that's from the MUST READ TOPIC.
 

Sephiroth27

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snex said:
why should anybody care what you claim god tells you when there are a billion other people claiming that god tells them the opposite? none of you have any evidence to support your case, and many of you (not you, however) agree with modern science. if there is a god, im more inclined to believe those that agree with modern science about his opinions.
God tells a billion of other people the opposite of what? I never said what God told me exactly, so how do you know that other people are receiving opposite information?
 

snex

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Sephiroth27 said:
God tells a billion of other people the opposite of what? I never said what God told me exactly, so how do you know that other people are receiving opposite information?
by the fact that a billion different christians claim that god wants exactly what they personally want, and the fact that all of those things differ. dont forget, non-christian theists claim to speak for their god(s) too. there is no way to test ANY of these claims.
 

Sephiroth27

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I think that the group of Christians that believe God generally wants the same thing for everybody needs to be considered.

You are right though, snex, there is no way to test it. God is clear on what he wants from humanity though.
 

snex

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Sephiroth27 said:
I think that the group of Christians that believe God generally wants the same thing for everybody needs to be considered.

You are right though, snex, there is no way to test it. God is clear on what he wants from humanity though.
no, god is not clear. god says nothing at all, in fact. the only people saying anything are those that wrote books 2000 years ago claiming they were gods words and modern ignorant people that believed them.

why cant god speak for himself directly to each human? why does he need ancient mythology books written by superstitious people?
 

Liku

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Sephiroth27 said:
Correct. You proved evolution was testable. That doesn’t mean it’s true.
How is any religion true? Have any fact? Because something's written in a book doesn't mean it's true. Hell(Hahahah), I should probably believe that a band of hobbits, humans, an elf and dwarf went one a journey once. You know, since it's in a book.
 

tsetse

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snex said:
by the fact that a billion different christians claim that god wants exactly what they personally want, and the fact that all of those things differ. dont forget, non-christian theists claim to speak for their god(s) too. there is no way to test ANY of these claims.
Actually i would like to be drunk and a polygamist but my personal religous convictions do not allow me to, The Bible is Clear on the fact that we are earthly and that we could never actually expect to be perfect and match what God wants, but his Grace is such that we are saved thanks to his mercy SNEX.
 

snex

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tsetse said:
Actually i would like to be drunk and a polygamist but my personal religous convictions do not allow me to, The Bible is Clear on the fact that we are earthly and that we could never actually expect to be perfect and match what God wants, but his Grace is such that we are saved thanks to his mercy SNEX.
translation:

actually my human nature makes me want to be drunk and a polygamist but my ability to understand that my actions have consequences tells me that while i may gain temporary pleasure by such things, it will only cause suffering in the long run. my ancestors invented a myth to understand this, since they could not, and they wrote it in the bible. the ancestors of other people wrote their own myths in books which are also still used today, but they are obviously false and mine are obviously true because i feel it deep in my heart, and the feelings in my heart prove that god is how i think he is, not how somebody else thinks.

edit: gah why does my sig keep showing!@~@!%
 

Dylock9

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I don't understand why there si no response to my post. What is the Creationist response? I don't see how evolution conflicts with the bible.
 

Hawk Eye

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Dylock9 said:
I don't understand why there si no response to my post. What is the Creationist response? I don't see how evolution conflicts with the bible.
The bible states that God created all things, living or not, terrestrial or extraterrestrial. According to the creationist belief, when god created the earth, he then created man in his image, along with all the animals alive. This man we all know of is Adam. God then seperated a part of Adam off and turned that part into the first woman, Eve. Now according to this man was around at the dawning of Earth's creation. Its said god created all things in 6 days, and on the 7th day he rested. I'm not sure how many days after the Earths creation man entered the scene, but according to this, it was less then a week.

That is the creationist belief...

I believe in God, and that he created all things. But i by far, do not believe in the creationist belief. That sounds a little contradicting, but let me explain. I believe in the scientific theory that the universe was created in the big bang. and i agree with Master Fox, who posted on the first page of this thread, that the universe recycles itself. that our universe, sooner or later will pull itself back to its center, and reach a critical point in which a new big bang will occur, and the universe will be renewed.

(and to help those whos brains have rotted because of too much nintendo, its like the universe hits the reset button every once and a while).

However, i seperate myself with my beliefs, because i believe that God existed before all other things, and that he made it all begin. In a way, i believe he was the one who turned the universe on, and resets it every once and a while.

So i dont fully believe either mainstream theory, but more of a slight mix of the two. Cause most scientific people believe that god cant exist cause if he created the universe, then who created him.. well thats just a leap of faith. and others say that since matter cannot be created nor destroyed, how could god create the universe. then i think, that statement is one of newtons laws of physics. and as any person whos interested in the universe knows that there are plenty of instances where the laws of physics dont apply. one such place for example is a black hole.

basically what im really trying to say is, when you keep trying to find the absolute dawn of the universe and all things, you're still left with that one question, what created that event? people think the big bang was the dawn of time and all things.. then what sparked the big bang? what was there before the big bang occured? sometimes the only way to understand these things, is by a leap of faith...
 

snex

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Hawk Eye said:
I believe in God, and that he created all things. But i by far, do not believe in the creationist belief. That sounds a little contradicting, but let me explain. I believe in the scientific theory that the universe was created in the big bang. and i agree with Master Fox, who posted on the first page of this thread, that the universe recycles itself. that our universe, sooner or later will pull itself back to its center, and reach a critical point in which a new big bang will occur, and the universe will be renewed.
actually, the most recent evidence indicates that it is impossible for the universe to stop expanding. in fact, the expansion is speeding up.

this has no relevance to whether or not a god exists though.

basically what im really trying to say is, when you keep trying to find the absolute dawn of the universe and all things, you're still left with that one question, what created that event? people think the big bang was the dawn of time and all things.. then what sparked the big bang? what was there before the big bang occured? sometimes the only way to understand these things, is by a leap of faith...
faith does not lead to understanding, faith leads to absolute certainty in arbitrary statements. faith hinders understanding. if you have faith that X started the big bang, you have no incentive to go out into the world and discover (as scientists do) whether or not your idea is correct. when we are ignorant of something, the best course of action is to admit our ignorance and then fix it through scientific study, not merely pick an idea we happen to like (or grew up with) and declare it as the ultimate absolute truth.
 

Crimson King

I am become death
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You're belief is called Intelligent Design. It's the idea that something intelligent created the universe. You say you don't believe in Creation, but you still have the basic concept that God made everything else.
 

snex

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Crimson King said:
You're belief is called Intelligent Design. It's the idea that something intelligent created the universe. You say you don't believe in Creation, but you still have the basic concept that God made everything else.
no, intelligent design refers to a political movement created to mask creationism and inject it into public schools. intelligent design proponents use the exact same arguments creationists have been using for years, except hidden behind vague phrases and math equations.
 

Master Fox

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Hawk Eye said:
and as any person whos interested in the universe knows that there are plenty of instances where the laws of physics dont apply. one such place for example is a black hole.
This statement is entirely not true! Do you even know what a black hole is? A Black hole ISN'T a rip in space that sucks up everything and sends it some other time period or alternate universe...on whicj they got their name. That is science fiction. A Black hole is a star with such emmense gravitational force that anything that gets too close to it, even light, gets sucked into it and its matter becomes part of the black holes after the body is crushed under the gravitational force, which isn't against the laws of physics. And the reason black holes are black is because light can't escape from the surface. We will never know the true color of a black hole...they aren't black without the gravity. Get your facts straight.
Worm-holes aren't real and if I'm wrong on that statement, a warm hole is created by gravity fields in which literally bend space (meaning anything that goes into a wormhole is rushed through with minimal effedt on the said body). Simple!

snex said:
actually, the most recent evidence indicates that it is impossible for the universe to stop expanding. in fact, the expansion is speeding up.
if it can speed up, it can slow down and turn around completely unless the reason we are speeding up is because we are heading towards objects with strong gravitational forces...which I doubt unless the universe IS limited or lined with Black Holes...but I doubt those too. I highly doubt we are speeding up. I will need to see an explination on your claim here and a source.
snex said:
no, intelligent design refers to a political movement created to mask creationism and inject it into public schools. intelligent design proponents use the exact same arguments creationists have been using for years, except hidden behind vague phrases and math equations.
This is very true and here is a site dedicated to refuting intellegent design by making fun of it and humiliating it with a very stupid belief...yet actually show more proof of it to be true...doesn't mean it is true but its being supported by evolutionist, doctors, athiests, scientists, researchers, etc. I warn you all here and now...its funny! I support their cause and laugh with them. Enjoy it!

And there is no proof at all that a god of the Bible's discription exists.

Liku said:
How is any religion true? Have any fact? Because something's written in a book doesn't mean it's true. Hell(Hahahah), I should probably believe that a band of hobbits, humans, an elf and dwarf went one a journey once. You know, since it's in a book.
Liku has a point here actually. Just because something is written in a book, doesn't mean its true! The Bible is a book that has been for a long time out of date. Also, the Bible does state where Noah's Ark landed. Although people have been finding wood not usually found there, it has been proven that the ship-shape features inside the mountains are boulders. Those people finding the wood actually did discover something...the type of tree used to grow there 5,000 years ago. The Bible is wrong yet again...
 

cF=)

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I agree with snex. Religion as been for a long period of time the basis which anybody could get on to explain phenomenon like death, the universe, etc.

I'm really against any theory that involve super-natural powers because I never saw anybody say "the hurrican killed my son, it's GOD FAULT" or "My mom as breast cancer, maybe god is in it for something". I hate it because god's always stated where he make good, not bad actions. If he created everything, why the hell he created aids and inflicted people of it ? to make us suffer ? Well noooo, catholic says "he's TESTING us". Oh great what a response !

Actually theres so much thing in the bible that don't even make sens with actual scientifical discovery that it's pointless to think The Almighty created our universe. Also, why did jesus came on earth about 40 millions years after dinosaurs put their claws on our planet ? well it's because there is no jesus... it's RAPTOR JESUS rofl.

Master Fox said:
A Black hole is a star with such emmense gravitational force that anything that gets too close to it, even light, gets sucked into it and its matter becomes part of the black holes after the body is crushed under the gravitational force, which isn't against the laws of physics.
Yeah if you never read some Stephen Hawking Quantic theory you know nothing about balck holes... this guy litterally change science with his reasearch he's amazing.
 

snex

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Master Fox said:
This statement is entirely not true! Do you even know what a black hole is? A Black hole ISN'T a rip in space that sucks up everything and sends it some other time period or alternate universe...on whicj they got their name. That is science fiction. A Black hole is a star with such emmense gravitational force that anything that gets too close to it, even light, gets sucked into it and its matter becomes part of the black holes after the body is crushed under the gravitational force, which isn't against the laws of physics. And the reason black holes are black is because light can't escape from the surface. We will never know the true color of a black hole...they aren't black without the gravity. Get your facts straight.
Worm-holes aren't real and if I'm wrong on that statement, a warm hole is created by gravity fields in which literally bend space (meaning anything that goes into a wormhole is rushed through with minimal effedt on the said body). Simple!
do black holes violate the laws of physics? well, the answer really depends on what you mean by "laws of physics." clearly black holes are physical objects and exist in the physical world and follow physical rules, so if thats what you mean by "laws of physics" then black holes dont violate them, by definition.

however, the things humans write down on paper and make you memorize in school could also be referred to as "laws of physics." black holes certainly violate these things, because attempting to calculate things near a black hole leads to nonsense values.

the things we write down and commonly refer to arent the real laws of physics, but merely our mathematical models of them. when we find things that seemingly violate the "laws of physics," like black holes, it means our models are incomplete.

if it can speed up, it can slow down and turn around completely unless the reason we are speeding up is because we are heading towards objects with strong gravitational forces...which I doubt unless the universe IS limited or lined with Black Holes...but I doubt those too. I highly doubt we are speeding up. I will need to see an explination on your claim here and a source.
check Science Magazine, 1998, vol 282, issue 5397. here is the article.
 

Jimayo

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John S. said:
As the second installment of my continuing series exploring the backgrounds and positions of the leading Intelligent Design advocates, here is my exploration Stephen C. Meyer...
===============================================

Stephen C. Meyer, Co-Founder and Vice-President of the Discovery Institute, Director of the Discovery Institute's Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture

[Religion: Dr. Meyer is very careful in downplaying his own his own personal religious beliefs (understanding full well that this would discredit him in many quarters), and though I gave it several hours of online research I could not pinpoint his specific Church or denomination. Maybe someone in Washington State has some information to share?
Nevertheless, he is:

a) certainly a theist, as per his own comments before the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights http://www.arn.org/docs/meyer/sm_uscom.htm "I think the being was God and I think other arguments can be made for that. ... I think the best explanation is that God is the designer, but it could be different."

b) certainly a Christian, as noted by his Christian academic career in religiously-oriented schools frequent teaching of Christian Apologetics. (see below)

c) and actively propagates his Christianity, as evidenced by his work on training teachers on how to integrate Christian beliefs into their lesson plans. See, for example, President's Office
Excerpts from Mahanes' Report To The Board http://www.pba.edu/president/htdocs/Excerptsfrom MahanesReport.htm " Dr. Meyer led a faculty workshop in which he challenged our faculty to see all of the academic disciplines through the lens of a distinctly Christian worldview. ..." &c.]

Unlike Bruce Chapman, Dr. Meyer is an academic as opposed to a politician. Further, regardless of what one thinks of Chapman's views, he has never been caught in any deliberate dishonesty (at least as far as I can tell), whereas Mr. Meyer most assuredly has (see below).

> B.S. in Physics/Earth Science, Whitworth College (affiliated with the Presbyterian Church), 1981
> Geophysicist for Atlantic Richfield Company (Arco Gasoline, now a wholly owned subsidiary of BP Petroleum) 1981-1985
> M.Phil. in the History and Philosophy of Science, University of Cambridge (UK), 1987 (including six hours of graduate applied mathematics, Southern Methodist University (TX), 1983-1984)
> Associate Professor of Philosophy, Whitworth College (affiliated with the Presbyterian Church), 1990-2002. Tenured 1996. (Courses taught included: History and Philosophy of Science, Reasons for Faith [Christian Apologetics] and Core [Western Civilization].)
> Co-founder of the Discovery Institute, Vice-President 1990-
> Ph.D. in the History and Philosophy of Science, University of Cambridge (UK), 1991 (Thesis: "Of Clues and Causes: A Methodological Interpretation of Origin-of-Life Research.")
> Templeton Foundation Science-Religion Teaching Award, 1995. (The Templeton Foundation is a leading "Christian Science" formation and supporter of Intelligent Design although they have cut off all funding for the Discovery Institute because of its political agenda.)
> Director and Senior Fellow of the Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture of the Discovery Institute, 1996-
> Oleg Zinman Award, Best Essay in the Journal of Interdisciplinary Studies, 1999.
> Co-author, DeWolf, D.K., Meyer, S.C. and DeForrest, M. (1999) Intelligent Design and the Public School Curriculum Science Curriculum.,(Foundation for Thought and Ethics: Dallas).
> Professor of the Conceptual Foundations of Science at Palm Beach Atlantic University (a Christian University) (He teaches an annual Christian Apologetics course for the University's School of Ministry, and "consults with faculties within the University on the integration of faith and learning."
> Co-author, Campbell, J.A. and Meyer, S.C., edts., (2004) Darwinism, Design and Public Education, Michigan State University Press: Lansing, Michigan.

I suppose that before we move on to Dr. Meyer's other opinions, first we should look at the "controversies" he has been involved with. First, and perhaps most importantly in that it has been repeated by elected officials and others with a vested interest in undermining U.S. educational standards is the "Santorum Amendment Deception".

Specifically, while arguing before the Ohio Board of Education, Dr. Meyer made the false claim that the "Santorum Amendment" to the "No Child Left Behind Act" [To quote: "The Conferees recognize that a quality science education should prepare students to distinguish the data and testable theories of science from religious or philosophical claims that are made in the name of science. Where topics are taught that may generate controversy (such as biological evolution), the curriculum should help students to understand the full range of scientific views that exist, why such topics may generate controversy, and how scientific discoveries can profoundly affect society." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santorum_Amendment ] had passed into U.S. law and therefore that Ohio had an obligation to teach "alternative" origins theories.

This deception was caught immediately after it was made - in the same Ohio Board of Education hearing - by Dr. Kenneth Miller, Professor of Biology at Brown University. To quote from his "The Truth about the "Santorum Amendment Language on Evolution: The 'No Child Left Behind' Education Act does not call for the teaching of 'Intelligent Design.'" [ http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/santorum.html ]:

"During the March 11, 2002 panel discussion on evolution in front of the Ohio Board of Education, the Discovery Institute's Stephen Meyer claimed that two purportedly anti-evolution sentences known as the "Santorum Amendment" were part of the recently-signed Education Bill, and therefore that the State of Ohio was obligated to teach alternative theories to evolution as part of its biology curriculum. I answered Meyer's contention by showing, using my own computer, that the Santorum language was not in the Bill, a copy of which I had downloaded from the Congressional web site. The effect on the crowd in attendance was devastating. A proponent of "intelligent design" had been caught misleading the Board as to the content of the law. Ever since that day, they have been trying to pretend otherwise."

Despite being caught red-handed misleading the Ohio Board of Education, trusting in the ignorance of the American public regarding the law, the Intelligent Design movement has continued to propagate this outright - and easily proven - lie across the country as the "Teach the Controversy Campaign". Despite the fact that other IDers and fundamentalist Christian politicians have "jumped on the band wagon", Dr. Meyer's was the first to stand up before a Board of Education and mislead it. Assuming that "acts speak louder than words", this incident clearly says something about Dr. Meyer's integrity, ethics, and "Christian morality."


A similar controversy is known as the "Sternberg peer review controversy" [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sternberg_peer_review_controversy ], whereby it appears that Meyer was allowed to circumvent the peer review process allowing him to publish an article in an actual scientific publication. Another deliberate tactic to present the "Intelligent Design" case in a manner where it cannot be questioned (or cross-examined by science advocates) include efforts to testify by filing Amicus Curiae briefs with those boards discussing the ID issue [See, for example: http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2005/10/dover_judge_str.html ].

As the director of the Discovery Institute's "Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture", he has overtly defended the "Wedge Strategy" [See: "Transcript of Nightline Interview with
Dr. Stephen Meyer of Discovery Institute", released 8/11/05, on the Discovery Institute website at: http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/filesDB-download.php?command=download&id=489 ] To quote notable excerpts of the strategy, as presented at: http://www.antievolution.org/features/wedge.html : [Any bold emphasis added]

"The proposition that human beings are created in the image of God is one of the bedrock principles on which Western civilization was built. ... Materialists also undermined personal responsibility by asserting that human thoughts and behaviors are dictated by our biology and environment. The results can be seen in modern approaches to criminal justice, product liability, and welfare. In the materialist scheme of things, everyone is a victim and no one can be held accountable for his or her actions. ... However, we are convinced that in order to defeat materialism, we must cut it off at its source. That source is scientific materialism. ... We are building on this momentum, broadening the wedge with a positive scientific alternative to materialistic scientific theories, which has come to be called the theory of intelligent design (ID). Design theory promises to reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions. ... Alongside a focus on influential opinion-makers, we also seek to build up a popular base of support among our natural constituency, namely, Christians. We will do this primarily through apologetics seminars. ...
Governing Goals:
> To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies.
> To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and hurnan beings are created by God.
Twenty Year Goals:
> To see intelligent design theory as the dominant perspective in science.
> To see design theory application in specific fields, including molecular biology, biochemistry, paleontology, physics and cosmology in the natural sciences, psychology, ethics, politics, theology and philosophy in the humanities; to see its innuence in the fine arts.
> To see design theory permeate our religious, cultural, moral and political life.


While Dr. Meyer has primarily stayed focused on his Christian ID agenda, not surprisingly - as a "Senior Fellow" of a Christian think-tank, he has also expressed his opinions on other Christian Conservative issues as well:

On a woman's right to control her body:

Excerpts from " A Pro-Life Case for the Daschle Bill" (6 June 1997), The Wall Street Journal [ http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=1251 ]

"... If Mr. Daschle’s bill becomes law, the politics of abortion will irreversibly change. Political debate, not judicial fiat, will increasingly determine what does, and does not, justify killing a human fetus. The debate will be about how much, not whether, to limit abortion. With this in mind, the pro-life Republicans in Congress must raise their own sights and recognize how far "incrementalism" could take them on the abortion issue. ... Pro-life legislators have the votes and the political support to begin to challenge thirty years of libertine abortion policy. They should not fear short term compromises that establish long term points of principle—and create opportunities for future political and judicial victories. When liberal Democrats offer imperfect solutions to problems they have long refused to acknowledge, conservatives have made progress. Prudence dictates that in such situations conservatives first secure what has been offered and then press for more. Where abortion is concerned, conservatives have little to lose from such an incrementalist strategy, and far more to gain than they have probably imagined."


Excerpts from "Fully Formed: The Discoveries of Fetology" (1 June 1985), Eternity [ http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=1768 ]

" ... A recently developed science called fetology has greatly enhanced knowledge of the human unborn, and harbors an implied challenge to the legal practice of abortion. ... While advancing methods of monitoring fetal brain waves may soon allow a more quantitative verification of pain, currently available knowledge certainly shatters the popular conception of abortion as a humane and an antiseptic practice. The most common of first-term abortion, suction, systematically dismembers the child's body. The head, referred to euphemistically by the abortionist as "number one," must be crushed with forceps before it can squeeze through the suction tube. ... Such subjective reveries reveal a movement motivated not by the intricacies of individual moral calculations, but instead by the demands of personal convenience. Those who have heard the silent scream may no longer justify convenience with ignorance."


On Human Rights, presumably the same held so sacred by Bush, Cheney and freinds...

Excerpts from "Human Rights: Blessed by God or Begrudged by Government?" (27 December 1987), Los Angeles Times [ http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=153 ]

"... In response to such absurd but seemingly inescapable conclusions, some have hoped that merely reiterating the Judeo-Christian doctrine of creation will restore the grounds for preserving human dignity. But no doctrine can give man dignity, let alone one that is no longer believed. No "useful fiction" can rescue man from his current moral dilemma; for fictions remain useful only as long as they are not regarded as such. Even so, Judaism and Christianity do not teach that the doctrine of man's creation in the Divine image establishes his dignity. They teach that the fact of man's creation has established human dignity. Only if man is (in fact) a product of special Divine purposes can his claim to distinctive or intrinsic dignity be sustained. Indeed, if dignity is built into man by his Creator, then certain rights are "inalienable." Moreover it follows that if man's dignity is a fact of his origin, human rights are independent of his religious or philosophical convictions, just as they are independent of the state. In short, if the traditional view of man's origin is correct, people have human rights whether they believe they do or not. ... Public, and especially political, references to this heritage can doubtless offend the sensibilities of a secular age. Yet if the traditional understanding of man is correct, if it is not only doctrinal but factual, then governments can derive human rights from a dignity that actually exists. But if the traditional view is false and the modern scientific view prevails, then there is no dignity and human rights are a delusion, not only in Moscow but here in the West as well."


On George W. Bush and political honesty:

Excerpts from " What's the difference?" (21 October 2000), World, [ http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=1670 ]

"With two debates down and three weeks to go, George W. Bush will soon face a media disadvantage. The debates have allowed many voters to hear his words directly. But on the campaign trail, he is at the mercy of liberal journalists. To prevent the media from filtering his message, as they did in the weeks after the Republican convention, Mr. Bush must implement a new strategy. He must find ways not only to state, but also to dramatize, his message and his central differences with Al Gore. ... Mr. Bush has staged some "photo-ops" to emphasize his positions, but these events have lacked the drama and risk that demand media attention. The media can ignore a positive feel-good photo-op, but attacks require reporters to elicit a Gore reaction and then report the fight. ... George W. Bush's stump speech shows that he recognizes the need to draw sharp differences with Al Gore on the central issues of the campaign. Nevertheless, merely stating his differences with Mr. Gore will not position him to benefit from the natural conservative sympathies of the majority of the electorate. He must ensure that the electorate perceives these differences during the last weeks of the campaign. To do that, he must pierce the media's electronic curtain by dramatizing his differences with Mr. Gore in ways the media can't filter or ignore. If he does, he will win the only debate that matters."


Economic ideas...

Excerpts from "A plan for recovery of the iffy economy" (28 December 2000), Seattle Times, [http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=576 ]

"... Tax cuts now: Bush can emphasize that reducing marginal income tax rates in the past not only benefited individual taxpayers (both rich and poor), ... By stimulating growth, tax cuts have consistently increased government revenues. Ironically, Bush can argue that tax cuts may prove the best way to protect the government surplus, especially if they are combined with other fiscally responsible measures. ... Increase energy exploration: Recent increases in energy imports and energy costs have suppressed domestic economic growth. Bush should announce his decision to open a small portion of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) to oil and gas exploration. ... Stop the over-regulation of business and restrain Justice Department suits. As a first clear signal, Bush should halt the government's assault on Microsoft. The stock market, and especially the sensitive NASDAQ, began its long slide right after the Justice Department's successful anti-trust suit against the software giant."

[FYI: Microsoft is a major financial contributor to the Discovery Institute: See, "Intelligent Donation?" by Farhad Manjoo, (26 August 2005), Salon.Com, http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/08/26/gatesfoundation/index_np.html]

"Push ahead on Social Security reform: If the next boom is to be sustainable we must aspire to reach all segments of society, not just the tech-savvy participants in the New Economy. To ensure that no workers are left behind, Bush should insist on his plan to permit voluntary partial privatization of Social Security. ... Polls suggest that many of Bush's specific economic policies already enjoy popular support. A recent Fox News poll shows that 61 percent of the public favors his tax cut plan. Many polls have shown a 60 percent consensus favoring smaller government and fewer services. Others show his Social Security plan has achieved considerable acceptance, while Gore-style environmentalism remains politically unpopular--especially during cold winters and energy shortages. ... "
If ID is so good, why is it not put out for peer review and why must those who espouse it constantly lie to get it accepted?
 

Hawk Eye

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snex said:
actually, the most recent evidence indicates that it is impossible for the universe to stop expanding. in fact, the expansion is speeding up.

this has no relevance to whether or not a god exists though.
i actually did not know that. i always thought, or heard from somewhere that it was slowing down. but hey, you learn somethin new everyday.

Crimson King said:
You're belief is called Intelligent Design. It's the idea that something intelligent created the universe. You say you don't believe in Creation, but you still have the basic concept that God made everything else.
You make a good point, that is pretty much what i was saying.. Intelligent design. I'll have to remember that. Thanks for clearin it up for me.

Master Fox said:
This statement is entirely not true! Do you even know what a black hole is? A Black hole ISN'T a rip in space that sucks up everything and sends it some other time period or alternate universe...on whicj they got their name. That is science fiction. A Black hole is a star with such emmense gravitational force that anything that gets too close to it, even light, gets sucked into it and its matter becomes part of the black holes after the body is crushed under the gravitational force, which isn't against the laws of physics. And the reason black holes are black is because light can't escape from the surface. We will never know the true color of a black hole...they aren't black without the gravity. Get your facts straight.
Worm-holes aren't real and if I'm wrong on that statement, a warm hole is created by gravity fields in which literally bend space (meaning anything that goes into a wormhole is rushed through with minimal effedt on the said body). Simple!
I'm not trying to pick an argument at all here, but please dont talk down to me and explain what a black hole is, and naturally assume i have no idea what it is. i've spent enough time with my head in the stars to know what you just said.

and when i was talking about the applications of physics to a black hole, i was under the assumption of other ideas. after reading snex's post, i realized i was thinkin in the wrong way.

snex said:
do black holes violate the laws of physics? well, the answer really depends on what you mean by "laws of physics." clearly black holes are physical objects and exist in the physical world and follow physical rules, so if thats what you mean by "laws of physics" then black holes dont violate them, by definition.

however, the things humans write down on paper and make you memorize in school could also be referred to as "laws of physics." black holes certainly violate these things, because attempting to calculate things near a black hole leads to nonsense values.

the things we write down and commonly refer to arent the real laws of physics, but merely our mathematical models of them. when we find things that seemingly violate the "laws of physics," like black holes, it means our models are incomplete.
nice job Snex, you cleared that up rather nicely.
 

Master Fox

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I really don't understand why you claim Black Holes are against the laws of physics in another way and usually when I hear that Black Holes are against the laws of Physics, they give me the science fiction discription of a black hole (a rip in space made out of Space-time according to Einstein). I just don't see how it would be any other way. Light IS affected by gravity and isn't against the laws of physics for light can be bent by magnetic fields and by gravity...and ofcourse mirrors. So...can someone explain it to me?
Hawk Eye said:
please dont talk down
Sorry...actually, take no heed at my rudeness. I've been losing myself for years now and have an extremely short temper...an inlogical short temper. So please ignore it. I mean no harm. I apologise! You forgive me?
snex said:
actually, the most recent evidence indicates that it is impossible for the universe to stop expanding. in fact, the expansion is speeding up.
Ok, I've read the article of yours and it doesn't state that its impossible for a calapse for they don't really know for sure. Also, isn't it possible that by the time the lights of the other galaxies reach us, the Galaxy will be much, much further, we being over hundreds of billion years out of date, providing the fact that the Universe is also, much, much older than anticipated. We don't even know how far the Galaxies really are, if they are slowing down or speeding up away or towards us (us being hunfreds of billions of years out of date). This may also make it seem like they are accelerating away at a much faster rate. Also, keep in mind that we too are moving around our axis, around the Sun in our orbit, around the black hole in the center of our galaxy, and our galaxy is also moving through space.
Also, I have found some evidence that not all galaxies are moving away from each other, infact, there are such events when Galaxies collide, causing a merge. slight source

This image is an image of 2 Galaxies colliding.
It is believed that one day, the Milky Way galaxy will meet this fate as well with a galaxy twice its size known as Andromeda. source (this sourse is more resent than yours by the way...) From the documentary on the Discovery channel about colliding Galaxies, its believed that the collision will occur in 10 billion years but Space.COM says in 2002 that Milky Way and Andromeda will collide in 3 billion years. The collision is inevitable, even if they manage to pass each other on a flyby, Gravity will pull them together. Earth has a 50% chance of being distroyed Discovery Channel says.
This goes to show that gravity can pull the universe back together as galaxies will grow in size from collisions with other Galaxies. This is possibly what will cause the universes eventual collapse on itself. This was all found out after the Hubble's refit, making it appear that galaxies were accelerating before the replacement of the Hubbles old, dusty lenses. After the refit, That picture I provided was taken and many othe galactic collisions were also witnessed. To study the events without waiting for another collision to occur, computer sims were created to emulate the situations. These events lead me to balieve that the possibility of a universal collapes is very high.
The only force at work here is gravity. No gods at work.
There are many undiscovered things within the universe, possibly even a God or Gods, not the christian God however...why? No real knowledge of a god. Plus to me, worshiping to a god or diety sounds very primitive to me...especially with this technology that we are able to play god. If there was a God, we wouldn't be able to do such feats.
 

snex

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nothing you said has anything to do with the fact that the universe's expansion is accelerating in a positive direction and that gravity is not strong enough to stop it.
 

Master Fox

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snex said:
nothing you said has anything to do with the fact that the universe's expansion is accelerating in a positive direction and that gravity is not strong enough to stop it.
The fact that galaxies are colliding says otherwise. If it were truly expanding the way explained by your source, it would be impossible for galaxies to collide and here they are colliding. It's possible that eventually, all the galaxies will collide with one another. According to the laws of physics, Gravity affects everything and even your bodies gravity has effect on the most distant galaxies, though small it may be. Eventually, the universe will collapse.
 

snex

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if you do not understand astrophysics, you should refrain from commenting on it. your assertion is akin to the claim that gravity is false because helium balloons go up.
 

Master Fox

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my source was my Physics class I had in 10th grade! The the helium balloon has to do with boyancy. Helium is less dense than air so it floats upward to get above the Oxygen. The rubber of the balloon won't stop it from floating upward...its the same thing with an air bubble under water. It floats upward. Gravity affects them but the other forces are stronger so it appears to defy gravity which isn't against the laes of physics. Now, space has no density so boyancy doesn't apply...only the force of gravity applies on everything in space.
...your statement still doesn't change the fact that galaxies collide. And have you thought that maybe the fact that the other 'moving away' galaxies are accelerating is because we are the ones accelerating towards another galaxy twice the size of ours, making it seem like the galaxies moving away from us seem like they are accelerating. Its not possible for an object to accelerate without an outside force. The other galaxies are actually moving at a constant pace but we're being pulled away from a straight trajectory, away from the observed "accelerating" galaxies and into the a much larger galaxy...though yes the universe is expanding but not in an accelerating rate.

Brace for impact...!
 

snex

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your ignorance is amazing, but hey, you arent the first kid on a message board who thought he knew more than professional physicists. if you arent going to accept the findings of the scientific community, then you really have nothing further to say in here. if you believe you have the ability to handwave away the most recent developments in science, by what standard do you accept the ones that are not so recent? you have no such standard. you are merely denying what doesn't fit your already pre-conceived belief in a cyclical universe - which stems from your philosophy - not from empirical observation.
 

Master Fox

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snex said:
your ignorance is amazing, but hey, you arent the first kid on a message board who thought he knew more than professional physicists. if you arent going to accept the findings of the scientific community, then you really have nothing further to say in here. if you believe you have the ability to handwave away the most recent developments in science, by what standard do you accept the ones that are not so recent? you have no such standard. you are merely denying what doesn't fit your already pre-conceived belief in a cyclical universe - which stems from your philosophy - not from empirical observation.
As I recall, your source was written in 1998, 2 of mine were written more recently, in 2002. Neither of our sources were 'most recent'. New discoveries are found everyday. Just a month ago, astronomers found a forming planet, orbiting a brown dwarf. And Proffessional Physicists have been wrong in the past. One example is in your very source when Albert Einstein claimed that the Universe was static and was ashamed when he was proven wrong.
Just so you know, I read and checked your entire source and examined the four images that was supposed to she the galaxy moving away at an accelerating rate but I it looked constant to me. You can't always believe your eyes by the way. Optical illusion do a great job of proving that.
I don't deny that the Universe is expanding but expanding at an accelerating rate, I deny because of optical illusion. Your ignoring the fact that we are the ones accelerating away from them because we are being drawn into a larger body, twice the size of ours. They, the professional physicists of your source did not know of it because it was discovered afterwards that astronomers caught glimse of the Galaxy, Andromeda, is not moving away from us and that it is spiraling towards us after witnessing to galaxies colliding (Image is a few posts up).

Hey, mistakes happen! They are only human. Can't 100% believe every word because they may be wrong, later discoveries filling in or correcting their holes.

Now, this article explains new discoveries on Dark Matter...there is one paragraphy that states this:
Robert Roy Britt said:
A new project that recycled Hubble Space Telescope images has mapped the invisible dark matter with unprecedented detail. Researchers focused on two galaxy clusters that are so far away, and their light has taken so long to get here, that they are seen as they existed when the universe was about half its present age.

The observations provide additional evidence supporting a leading theory that galaxies form in cosmic webs, with regular material and dark matter condensing into nodes something like water drops gather at intersections of spider silk.
Now this article wasn't in 1998 nor in 2002. This article was written December 13, 2005. Now lets take a look at this...:
Master Fox said:
Also, isn't it possible that by the time the lights of the other galaxies reach us, the Galaxy will be much, much further, we being over hundreds of billion years out of date, providing the fact that the Universe is also, much, much older than anticipated. We don't even know how far the Galaxies really are, if they are slowing down or speeding up away or towards us (us being hunfreds of billions of years out of date).
This was my question.
Robert Roy Britt said:
Researchers focused on two galaxy clusters that are so far away, and their light has taken so long to get here, that they are seen as they existed when the universe was about half its present age.
And this was the answer I was looking for...and it was the answer I wanted! It shows that we aren't up to date with most of the stuff going on in the universe. And from the photos in your source, looks like an optical illusion.

Now this one, written on February 24, 2005, has something to do with your source. One paragraph states its "FAR FROM PROVEN" though gives and explination of how it would accelerate (Dark Matter is the cause) but the impression I found was that the accelerating galaxies is nothing more than a hypothesis.

I'd say these are considered 'recent'.

Also, keep in mind that Gravity can distort light as it bends it and twists it and does many weird stuff with it,

and I don't appreciate you calling me an ignorant kid. I'm npt a kid!

Now, this dark energy is being found, the source of it is dark matter, but the dark matter holds the universe in a giant web. Source above somewhere in this post...If my post shows properly...!
 

snex

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none of your sources disprove accelerating expansion. why dont you email the authors of the peer reviewed papers that you are citing and ask them if the expansion of the universe is accelerating or not? ill bet $1,000 that theyll say it is.
 

Jimayo

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snex said:
none of your sources disprove accelerating expansion. why dont you email the authors of the peer reviewed papers that you are citing and ask them if the expansion of the universe is accelerating or not? ill bet $1,000 that theyll say it is.

Can I get a piece of that?
 

Crimson King

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Jimayo, stop posting one liners. If you don't have anything useful to say, Don't post.

Simple really.

How about everyone says which side of the argument they are on, then we can at least figure who we are arguing and not argue each other on trival issues. (Like the Christianity and it's MANY denominations)

I am pro-evolution with no intelligent design. Nature has created numerous things already, and if a deity created life once, why would he just pick this planet? Also, why not create more than one species of intelligent life? Finally, why hasn't he intervened when that life is seemingly destroying itself.
 

Master Fox

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Grr...seems my last post got all screwed up and isn't showing all I was trying to say. I'll have to fix that somehow.
snex said:
none of your sources disprove accelerating expansion.
Doesn't have to...my last source says it has yet to be proven and they are trying to prove ittrying to explain what force is causing these galaxies to speed away, if it is and why?
They believe its something called Dark Energy which is the force of antigravity. They believe a substance called Dark Matter, though researchers only believe that Dark Matter exists beyond all the Galaxies in the far reaches of Space, which line the Universe but they are unsure if Dark Matter exists much closer to us, within the universe that would cause these Galaxies to accelerate but they're having no luck save they think they see the accelerating in the telescopes. If dark matter existed within the universe and outside the universe, then the Expansion of the Universe will accelerate and deccelerate when a galaxy reaches or gets near dark matter. What will happen when the Galaxies reach the outer dark matter? Will the universe collapse? There is a giant galaxy heading straight for us. We don't really know if the galaxy is in its expansion state or in the collapse state. We are only seeing hundreds of billions year old light from the galaxies observed, meaning, those galaxies are no longer at that spot for billions of years. We are also seeing many universal collisions of galaxies and this galaxy of ours will experiance a horrific collision with a galaxy twice it's size. In 2001, they have seen decceleration in a supernova, but then, all of a sudden, it sped up. They believe that this was proof of the existance of Dark Matter, however, no notes were jottide down of the size of the supernova, the brightness, etc. Also, the study of the accelerating and deccelerating of the galaxies are only being measured by distance from the galaxies to the Earth, where the distance should be recorded from our Galaxy to the other galaxies, not from the Earth as they are, even ignoring the fact that Earth is constantly moving.
Now I understand, I understand how the universe will end and how the whole process will start again.
1. The Big Bang occurs
2. The Expansion of the universe occurs because of big bang
3. Matter forms into bodies such as planets, stars, black holes, moons, astroids, comets, etc.
4. Smaller Bodies begin orbiting around larger bodies, forming systems and galaxies
5. Faster moving galaxies bang reach outer Dark Matter barrier
6. Galaxies on return collide with other Galaxies that haven't reached the Dark Matter barrier
7. last 2 galaxies collide, the gravity of the Black hole will be so emmense that the new galaxy will fall into the black hole.
8. Inner universal Dark Matter is pulled into the Black Hole and the outer dark matter pushes the body into the origin point
9. Big Bang occurs again when when 30% of the matter in Black hole are gravity based matter and 70% is Inner Dark Matter
10. steps 2 - 9 are forever repeated again in a never ending, never starting process.
There is no start point and no end point, the universe was never created...it has existed forever
Crimson King said:
How about everyone says which side of the argument they are on, then we can at least figure who we are arguing and not argue each other on trival issues. (Like the Christianity and it's MANY denominations)
I am arguing that Evolution occurs in life and the Rubber Band Theory (Big Bang and the callapse of the universe, where the process starts over again, this going on forever) is true And that a God or gods had nothing to do with creation and don't control our destiny and fate, that we control our lives and influence others. I also believe Religion should no longer be used to determine origin of the Universe, Religion should only give us the idea of what is right and what is wrong (how we should behave I mean) or that religion should be discarded from our lives for future generations. I fight that Intellegent Design should NOT be taught in school in science, only taught in religious schools though I think those should be torn down.
I also believe that there is more beyond the far reaches of the Universe like more universes...maybe not...and there is no God nor a heaven nor hell beyond the Universe's barrier. Only more Universes or nothing but space is out there where light will never reach, endless in all direction. The distance between the center of the universe and the end of space would be undifined and infinite. These even enough room for hundreds of trillions of intellegent lifeforms to co-exist in the Universe, so we are not alone.
This is where I stand...
 

snex

Smash Master
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you clearly do not understand dark matter, dark energy, or any of the concepts behind the accelerating expanding universe.

dark matter has absolutely nothing to do with the expansion. dark matter was proposed to solve the spiral galaxy spinning arms problem. dark matter exists within galaxies.

dark energy was proposed to solve the accelerating expansion problem, but there is no "dark energy rim" at the "edge of the universe." there is no such thing as the "edge of the universe." dark energy is a fundamental part of spacetime itself, as shown by inflationary cosmology.

you should really stop pontificating on matters over which you have no knowledge whatsoever. read "the fabric of the cosmos" by brian greene.
 

blazedaces

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
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philly, PA, aim: blazedaces, msg me and we'll play
Master Fox, It's all well and good that you're slightly doubting each source you hear so as not to completeley believe everything said to you, but you're definitly taking this way too far. You're assuming the greatest scientists who devote their lives to this study are overlooking minor errors such as optical illusions and relative acceleration, but try to remember who you're talking about here.

To add to what Snex already said about the subjects: Dark matter is matter which we can not see, sort of like black holes. There are galaxies with areas in them so far away from the center moving so fast that the amount of mass which we can visibly see is just not possibly enough to stop it from flying outwards. Therefore there must be a lot of mass which is not visible adding to the gravitational force. This is what we call dark matter.

Please stop insulting those you understand so little about. Albert Einstien made so many amazing discoveries in his time it's quite remarkable. Everything from the way space time exists to the principles of relativity to new states of matter was achieved by this man and I'm not even scratching the surface. If you understood the article Snex posted you would have seen that if anything what Albertien Einstien had proposed, "Dark Energy", which he considered his biggest blunder, may be in fact completely true. Before telescopes of the caliber of the Hubble were made there was no reason to believe the universe was expanding at all, so the scientific community assumed it wasn't. If it wasn't, then some force created by some existing energy had to be stopping the gravitational force from all mass to bring everything together. When it was discovered that galaxies are moving away from each other "dark energy" was shut down because there was no need for it to exist anymore. That is why Einstien called it his biggest blunder. Then when examples of acceleration of galaxies away from each other started to emerge dark energy came back to play.

Snex, just a side comment: I still haven't had the time to read the book you recommended, but I'm getting to it(straight A's at college baby!). I did though research the topic we last discussed and understand moreso what you explained.
 
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