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[Deleted member 189823]

I honestly don't think you know what you're talking about. You can't 'space' against a character who is faster than you, craps on your shield, and beats out most of your attacks with his OWN spacing. Tornado beats out every tilt other than a perfectly timed utilt, and it beats every aerial, other than a perfectly positioned u/dair. You can't "turtle" him, but it's really hard to be aggro against him as well. MK just wins heavily in every scenario, even after a successful hit from DDD. You say you "hate seeing MK live over 120%," but if MK is playing properly, he can live LONG past that. Good MKs won't be utilted. Many of your punishments will be throws with some bairs and tilts mixed in. I doubt that DDD will be killing with staled bairs or dtilts until 150%. Dthrow does not always set-up for DA or dsmash. The move sets up a tech-chase, not a true combo situation, and MK also has a choice (through his DI) over whether he wants to be run through that TC scenario.

Yeah, you're right. I don't know what I was thinking at that moment. I was hesitant even when writing that. 8P
I actually have a friend who happens to be a very quick and aggresive MK, and the last time we played, he 2-0'd me a couple of times. : /
I haven't played him in a while, but I'll see if I can soon and I'll show you something.
Here's a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEAjZ0Z6rRM

 

[CourageHound]

Yeah, you're right. I don't know what I was thinking at that moment. I was hesitant even when writing that. 8P
I actually have a friend who happens to be a very quick and aggresive MK, and the last time we played, he 2-0'd me a couple of times. : /
I haven't played him in a while, but I'll see if I can soon and I'll show you something.
Here's a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEAjZ0Z6rRM

You dont mind if I give some advice on the vid? Even though alot couldve changed from now and then, and I know I'm not a pro DDD or an expert on the MU(nor too much personal experience) but i think I could give some helpful tips. All of this is what I beleive would help and i'm open to correction or disagreement.

Well, at the start of the match, you almost immediately confronted MK with b-airs. I'd say that would be a no-no. That was how he was able to get inside you and string hits so quickly. The Meta was very aggro and you replied with being aggro back. I'm fairly certain that will pretty much get you punished consistently. On a stage as big as FD, at the start of the match you essentially have space to work when not being pressured. Before you charged in, the MK seemed to be prepared to glide towards you. Thus, I would have thrown a waddle(from across FD) to intercept. Then I would've thrown in a walking F-tilt and gone from there. I would rather condition the MK, intercept and punish approaches when in a neutral or winning situation rather than charge in.
Soo:
*More cautious approach, and dont approach when you dont need to. Punishment, punishment, punishment is what your going to be looking for.
*Use more waddles at long range. Also good for edge guarding imo
*More appropriate use of f-tilt. The only time you f-tilted I think was when the MK was like right in front of you O_o. Can also be used as an edge guarding tool at max range I believe.
*I've read that d-smash beats MK's tilt spacing game

Another thing seemed to be you liking to challenge MK in the air with f-airs or even on a couple occasions attempt to fair when MK was grounded. I really don't recommend this as 1; Fair isn't fast enough to avoid punishment, from aerial MK and 2; Trying to time f-air hit anyone really is pretty unreliable enough without the terrible lag when you hit the ground. Maybe a quick fair is good to get some room, but only if you know it will hit. I'd suggest using fairs to retreat instead. I'd suggest using more b-air to knock away aerial MK. If you did connect with a fair, good job, now back off unless you sent the MK flying.
Soo:
*Less aerial ~ lead to you being juggled
*Less F-air, more bair
*Mostly defensive aerials. I would only use u-air and b-air offensively

Lastly, I wanted to note your execution of d-air and inhale. Multiple times in the vid you d-air'd into the ground. That is a huuuge no-no. The lag is definitely not worth it. If you happen to be directly above MK dair is a pretty viable option in, I believe 2 scenarios.
Scenario 1: You both are not too far from the ground the MK is preparing to juggle. As funny as it sounds, I would d-air camp above him to deter an aerial approach, but its pretty effective from my little experience. Ok so hes not after you now, but instead waiting for you to land. I'd mix it up with an AD to the ground, or a reverse inhale, or pretend your out of jumps and fall for a spit second, use your last jump, then FF B-air. The last one appears to be the most risky but can ultimately get the MK away if it lands(can be shield-grabbed however).
Scenario 2: You are pretty high in the air and MK is chasing you into the sky. In this situation you can safely FF the d-air into the MK as the last hit will connect before you both hit the ground thus knocking your target away.
As for inhale, your execution was either pretty awkward or very good. Awkward meaning say you'd inhale from far away or not connecting and hold it like he'll fly into your mouth, leaving open to severe punishment. However a great use of inhale(and an application I use a lot) was 2:44 - 2:48 when you used inhale to cover your landing. Generally I'd use more B-reverse inhales and falling inhales when the time presenting itself.
Soo:
*Know how to defend dair and inhale properly. However dont get predictable with inhale. Bair could be a good mixup in-between inhale I think.

Well thats my tips and advice on the vid. I hope I have been of help, and feel free to disagree and correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Thank you. Your critique was so highly detailed...I can tell you put your time on writing that. Thanks again. (:
And, well...that match was from some months ago. I haven't played that MU in a while- At least not against him.

My personal approach was countering MK's aggresiveness with your own, fire against fire, so to speak. And yeah, it's not really very good advice. But turtling your way and relying on punishing just isn't my kind of thing. : / DDD's punishing moves seem rather slow.

 

[CourageHound]

Its fine, and I'm glad I could be of help

Haha, the slow and steady approach does seem to be most effective I think. I base my view on the matchup based on a few notable vids, most famously Coney vs M2K. However, if you do like the aggressive approach even though I don't recommend(and don't really see it working :/) it would be:

Vs Grounded MK:

• Spaced D-smash > MK's Titlt's
• Full Hop D-Air
• F-tilt
• Waddles(from afar)

VS Aerial MK:

• B-airs
• Waddles(from afar)

However~~~
Fighting a more defensive MK is a whole different story an they will be looking for you to mess up or be overly aggro

 

[DewDaDash]

Hey guys, so I was wondering if I could get a MU tip. So I was fighting an MK as DDD and he took me to Frigate Orpheon. I dunno the details of the Frigate vs MK but I was getting wrecked. Barely any room to work, the lack of ledges was pretty glaring, and I was pretty much a combo target till I could regain momentary stage control. Any tips vs MK in general, not just Frigate?

Huh... I love frigate actually XD. two neat gimmicks you guys should know is on frigate you should fastfall and land on the tilted part of the stage and uptilt so that your uptilt has a wide range to hit since you slide. Another good gimmick is when mk dgrabs you, you dI away from him, fastfall the grab and immediately d-smash. The MK usually always run towards you after a d-grab to follow up so that usually gives you a free dsmash which is a nice way to kill sometimes. Its very surprising for the MK so it usually always works the 1st few times. If he catches on though he wont be as aggro but I remember using it against logic's MK, was pretty awesome lol.

 

[CourageHound]

Thanks for the tips.

You guys have any advice for the sonic MU?

 

[bubbaking]

Learn how to dthrow > JC usmash.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

What is the JC U-Smash for?

 

[CourageHound]

jump cancelled up smash to hit a few characters garenteed out of down throw. I tried once on sonic but I failed? Does it need to be jump canceled exactly?

 

[bubbaking]

Apparently it does. This actually works on some really clutch characters that we may not have an advantage on otherwise, despite the fact that we can CG them, like Lucario and Sonic. They're also a bit more than a few.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Why would I CG to B-Air? What's the point if you have CG to D-Tilt available and it's probable your B-Air will be stale?

 

[bubbaking]

Who are you CGing into bair?

 

[Deleted member 189823]

No one because I didn't bother learning it because it doesn't seem of so much use so far. However, I would do this to Snake.

 

[FredFuchs]

can someone explain to me how ddd can inhale snake out of his cypher? i was reading bobwithlobster's post on the v7 tier list saying that it's an areal grab release

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

You just inhale him when he is cypher ing. When he enters you the cypher hits you and forces a grab break. It is really as simple as it sounds. You just jump out there and suck that snake into your belly.

 

[CourageHound]

Guys, i cant figure out how to do the inhale release to buffered up tilt

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

You can mash the 'a' button to buffer as long as you keep buffering turn arounds. So you kinda spin in circles mashing 'a' while angling the joy stick slightly up ward.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Is it possible with Tap Jump on?

 

[bubbaking]

Yes. Just don't press the stick upwards quickly and/or don't press it all the way up. Just slightly tilt it.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Similar to how you have to slightly hold down to buffer a down tilt but not a crouch.

 

[dean.]

Lost pretty badly to a G&W last tournament on my counterpick after a closeish game 2, don't know if it was a mindset thing but what are our best stages vs. him? I ended up going to PS, he banned FD and I'd already won on SV game 1 (DSR was in effect).

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

The option I can think of against g&w would be to maybe try lylat cruise and hope the tilting edges make it a but harder for him to recover.

I don't feel this a clear cut mu for ddd. We can't chain grab him so fd isn't that great hes more mobile than us so something like delfino probably wouldn't be that good. I would think something smaller to force more close quarters combat would be your best bet. I would think ps1 out maybe frigate might be good options.

 

[dean.]

Yeah it's a pretty awkward matchup, I hadn't played it in ages. I'm usually pretty shield-happy but that doesn't seem too effective against G&W so it forces me to change my style a bit.

I do like Lylat in a lot of matchups, he counterpicked me there game 2 so I kinda assumed it was good for him too so avoided taking him back there. Only real problem is we get juggled a ton but... that happens on any stage.

Frigate's banned where we are T_T thanks for your tips.

 

[bubbaking]

Avoid any stage where G&W can shark! His ledge game is already really good. He's one of the few great actual plankers in the game. As such, I feel that Delfino should probably be banned immediately if you know your opponent only goes G&W (otherwise, you might want to ban Halberd). He may have CP'd you to Lylat because he can semi-shark with nair under the stage and the low plats allow him to cover them with nair and other aerials really well in addition to poking through them with dair to hit opponents at ground level. As Bob said, small stages may be your best bet to force CQC and possibly get earlier kills, since G&W actually lives surprisingly long, especially when the moves you keep hitting him with get stale (since we can't refresh our moves with a CG). From my experiences in close friendlies as G&W against Coney's DDD as well as experiences as DDD against YarsRevengerson's G&W, I feel like I have somewhat of a good handle on both sides of the MU.

I can see why he banned FD. Even though we can't CG G&W, FD is almost always a good DDD stage because of the 'wall' he can set up without platforms to help out the opponent. DDD can use plats pretty well too, but G&W is definitely the superior character when it comes to their usage. In addition, without plats, DDD's Waddles become more effective. IMO, FD is also G&W's worst stage. He definitely likes platforms as well as anything that helps him plank and shark. FD provides none of these things, and without them, G&W's playstyle is actually as linear as DDD's.

In general, try to zone him with tilts and bair (like most of our MUs), but I wouldn't say not to shield much. Yes, bair does a lot of shield pressure, but if you're patient and wait for the landing hit, we can almost always shieldgrab it. IMO, Game needs to mix up between attacking with bair and whiffing the bair on purpose, but that's quite punishable. Early SH nair covers Watch well, but if he doesn't DJ away immediately (which opens him up by putting him above DDD without a jump), he's vulnerable. Even though it's somewhat low, all of Game's aerials still have punishable landing lag except for maybe uair, so Watch will often FH with them. In the end, this MU is the ultimate game of punishment. Each char can punish the other char's actions hard, and it's usually really risky to act first.

 

[OliClutch117]

How does DDD play the Pika and Diddy MU?

 

[bubbaking]

I have no idea how to play against Pika. For Diddy, watch how Vex and 4GOD do it. The MU involves a lot of Waddle usage to block bananas and approach as well as early-ish gimps when we get Diddy offstage. Also, you must be able to survive to high %'s. Watch out for Diddy's close-range 'burst options' (banana toss, fair, sideB, and DA, I think).

 

[Jabejazz]

Even though it's old, I like to use this video as a template for the Diddy:TripleD matchup.

 

[bubbaking]

Dang, that vid is old. Atomsk kept doing only normal ledge get-ups and never even ledgejumped, and just forget about ADHD. How the heck does one run into so many attacks from a single Waddle Doo? Still though, as old as it was, that video was pretty good, and I feel like the MU's gotten even better for DDD now that we're being even smarter with our options.

Edit: "Smarter" probably wasn't the right word. Atomsk was very wise in his use of what he knew, but I feel that we are now aware of even more options just from the advancement of our metagame over time.

 

[Plataea]

I am having trouble with shield chain grabbing.
To buffer a dash after the down throw, you have to tap and release the stick. When I do this, during the initial dash animation, the game won't let me shield. Normally, you can shield during the initial dash animation if you're holding forwards to continue dashing. I understand that you're supposed to be able to shield grab immediately after starting to dash.
If I am to buffer the dash, the only way I can do the shield chain grab is if I tap and release the stick to buffer the dash, then press and hold the stick forwards again as soon as the down throw is over. This seems too complicated. How is it supposed to be done?

 

[CourageHound]

I am having trouble with shield chain grabbing.
To buffer a dash after the down throw, you have to tap and release the stick. When I do this, during the initial dash animation, the game won't let me shield. Normally, you can shield during the initial dash animation if you're holding forwards to continue dashing. I understand that you're supposed to be able to shield grab immediately after starting to dash.
If I am to buffer the dash, the only way I can do the shield chain grab is if I tap and release the stick to buffer the dash, then press and hold the stick forwards again as soon as the down throw is over. This seems too complicated. How is it supposed to be done?

I'm not entirely sure on this so dont yell at me if i'm wrong but iirc you can only shield during your running animation and your skid animation. To do the shield chain grab you down throw, buffer then run without releasing, shield and then grab at least 3 frames after holding shield.

What you described of what your doing is the skid cancelled shield grab. Or at least thats what it sounds like youre attempting. The skid cancelled shield grab is when you cut your initial dash animation short and go into the skid animation. From there you can shield grab on from 1. So yea. I think your issue was that you were trying to do a skid cancelled grab while also believing you you could shield during the initial dash animation. Which iirc isnt possible.

 

[Plataea]

Thank you for your help in answering my question. I probably sound ignorant, but I'm still confused about one thing. You said, "To do the shield chain grab you down throw, buffer then run without releasing," etc. However, if I try to buffer the run and hold the stick without releasing it, Dedede walks instead of running. If I release the stick, I can't shield when I start the dash. This is what I'm confused about.

 

[CourageHound]

Thank you for your help in answering my question. I probably sound ignorant, but I'm still confused about one thing. You said, "To do the shield chain grab you down throw, buffer then run without releasing," etc. However, if I try to buffer the run and hold the stick without releasing it, Dedede walks instead of running. If I release the stick, I can't shield when I start the dash. This is what I'm confused about.

Hmmm...what you are doing wrong is probably buffering at the wrong time(too early) and causing Deedede to walk. You can practice/learn the buffer time easily if you practice the standing infinite on DK. Sounds kinda silly but once you get used to buffering the standing chain grab(which is pretty easy) you'll know when to buffer the run on the down throw. Once you get that down you should be running with no problem. I know this cuz both my mains have CGs that require buffering.

 

[Hoejja]

tap twice to dash. it's just easier.

Don't shield grab too early. It was my main problem when i was practicing. Once you'll get it, it will be easy as cake.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Yeah you can't buffer a dash by just hitting forward and holding forward. I do believe it can be done with the double tap and hold the second but I have not tested that one. To do the buffer the dash I hold forward and tap down on the c-stick during the buffer window. This easily tells you if you did it correct as dash is correct, smash attack is too late and walk is too early.

The inputs for buffering things is so weird... Why is hold forward and tap up on the c-stick dash attack. And a second tap up on the c-stick do dacus?

The hard part of the chain grab is if you tap the dash you don't go into the dashing animation, just the initial dash start which results in no skid. Which means not shield cancelable. To do it you have to enter the actual dashing animation for at least one frame and then stop to get the skid which can be canceled frame one with shield. Because you have to hold the dash for at least one frame of the dashing you can't do buffering for frame perfection.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

How does DDD play the Pika and Diddy MU?

DDD vs Pika: DDD is at a disadvantage in this fight. Stage is what makes or breaks the MU. Keep to stages that hinder his camping game and grab game, Battlefield for example. Avoid FD / SV. Because you want to hide under platforms.

DDDs best weaponry against pika; Ftilt, dtilt, dair, walls of bair. Ftilt cancels pikachus tjolt so does Bair. Its probably going to be the most used normal in your fight against him. Dtilt is great for poking him. Dair when he gets too close. DI away from him and Fair without touching the ground. You dont want to get CG'ed by him. Punish him with bthrow and push him off stage, we can punish skull bash and QA with our better high priority aerials [bair for example]. Throw out a dee or too, while tjolt bounces them away, its gives you up a mix up game so your not always locked into canceling a move using only one move.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Does hitting a Thunder jolt with a move count in the stale moves list? If so always use Ftilt for that so you don't stale any kill moves.

 

[CourageHound]

Does hitting a Thunder jolt with a move count in the stale moves list? If so always use Ftilt for that so you don't stale any kill moves.

Yes pinging out t jolts count in the stales moves. But i would stick to powershielding at mid to close range.

 

[Hoejja]

does ddd have a move against mk's tornado after a power shield cancel? a grab maybe ? cuz i've watched the vgbootcamp video about the PSC and he is not on the characters showed, still i want to believe ...

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

does ddd have a move against mk's tornado after a power shield cancel? a grab maybe ? cuz i've watched the vgbootcamp video about the PSC and he is not on the characters showed, still i want to believe ...

Fairly certain up tilt would work if you can pull it off the invincibility frames would help if it isn't fast enough. Down tilt is probably fast enough as well if he is in a place where that would hit (unlikely...).

 

[Joeythehero45532]

Whadup D boards! I got a question. I just want to know how do I cancel D's swallow. I know when players mash buttons, D's swallow gets canceled and that makes them jump out. How do I cancel D's swallow by purpose? Meaning even if they don't mash any buttons, D's swallow can be canceled ether way Do I have to spin around and ****? ight then yall take it easy.