Grab Release Mega-Thread (Spoilers: Almost Zero Combos)

[Thinkaman]

Me and @ Amazing Ampharos played some test games to nail down the specifics of the grab release combos discovered for Sheik, and against Wario. Spoilers: most don't work. But first, data lists:

The following characters are "short" in Smash 4, and can always be aerially released by "hold high" characters on level ground:


The follow characters "hold high" on flat ground:


The following characters always "hold high"; all characters, even against slopes:

(Additionally, Yoshi forces aerial grab release sometimes while pummeling, much rarer than in Brawl. The others do not.)

Most characters "hold high" on slopes; the following characters do not--only off edges entirely.





I hope you memorized those lists, because it turns out they are pretty unimportant.

There seems to be only one non-Wario grab-release combo in the game.

Marth/Lucina can grab release sweetspot up-b 2 all short characters EXCEPT:


That means it works on these 12:


This does 12%, and is a "headshot" on Bowser Jr. It kills level 9 Mario in training from the spawn position of FD (close to edge) at 114%. (Releasing/hitting outward) Marth and Lucina's up-b 2 are identical in every way, since it has a non-standard, non-tipper sweetspot.



Like Brawl, Wario's aerial grab release goes straight up. However, like most characters he can react sooner in Smash 4. Few moves can hit him, and most that can are vastly inferior to throws.

The following moves can hit Wario out of aerial grab release:

• / up-b 1 sourspot
• / up-b 2 sourspot
• up-b 1 initial sourspot only (does not hold high! only air-releases off edge!)
• up-b 2 both hits (does not hold high! only air-releases off edge! CERTAIN SUICIDE)
• up-b 1 initial hit only
• up-b 2 both hits
• up-b 3
• KO Punch

The following moves cannot:

• u-smash
• u-smash or aerials (fair is really close)
• up-b 2
• up-b 1
• up-b 2
• up-b (any)
• up-b 3
• Anything else

UPDATE: Wario's grab release was fixed in patch 1.0.4/1.0.1.


Meta Knight's crazy suicidal grab release up-b 2 actually works on most characters if they do not air dodge it the first possible frame. (If they do, Meta Knight looks really stupid.)

Sheik down-b (any) is not a grab release combo on any character, contrary to rumors.

Conclusions:

• Little Mac can indeed KO Punch Wario out of grab. FIXED
• ZSS and Shulk can do a decent damage combo on Wario out of grab, if and only if they accept their weaker, lateral custom up-bs in that matchup. Maybe worth it. FIXED
• Meta Knight has an insane suicide high-percent KO move on Wario, if and only if he takes his lateral custom up-b AND grabs Wario at the ledge. Maybe useful? FIXED
• If Marth/Lucina take custom up-b 2 against short characters, they have a 12% grab release that is a high-percent kill move. (Not bad if you grab them on ledge) Depends how much Marth/Lucina prefer the other, generally superior up-bs.
• We are pretty confident are no other grab releases in the game, including Bouncing Fish.

Thanks again to to Ampharos for helping me compile all of this data!


Main point of discussion:

Do you think it is worth it for these characters (Shulk, ZSS, Marth/Lucina) to take these custom moves in applicable matchups? These lateral up-b options... aren't bad, but would not generally be my first choice. I personally really prefer default Dolphin Slahs on Marth, for example. But I don't main any of these guys; I'm interested to hear opinions.

Edit: Added DLC characters, and removed Mega Man from the "always holds high list", which seems to be no longer true after an unknown patch.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

This was quite the project for something that ended up being pretty niche (only a few useful combos at all), but it was prety good to be able to put to bed rumors about grab release nastiness returning.

We also checked to see if Bowser still had a 10f advantage when grab releaseing people like he did in Brawl. He did not; Bowser could not combo ground break into jab (or combo anything off grab release in any circumstance). Grab release is not a serious threat in this game, but there are a few corner cases we found.

I'd also like to remind people of the rules of slopes; I confirmed they are the same as in Brawl. If a slope is big enough (the tiny slopes on Yoshi's Island aren't; Distant Planet's slope is), characters facing uphill will always hold victims low and characters facing downhill will always hold characters high independent of the height of the victim unless the grabber is one of those five characters who have special rules regarding where they hold victims (Olimar/Villager for always low, Mega Man/Wii Fit Trainer/Yoshi for always high).

 

[Rakurai]

Mac's KO punch grab release is even less of an issue then I was thinking it would be once I realized he loses the punch if you hit him hard enough to send him into a tumble about five seconds after it becomes available.

 

[Thinkaman]

Mac's KO punch grab release is even less of an issue then I was thinking it would be once I realized he loses the punch if you hit him hard enough to send him into a tumble about five seconds after it becomes available.

It's also unblockable. So... Any time Little Mac grabs someone with KO punch up, he could have just KO Punched them directly...

All the grab does is let it kill slightly sooner, and let you keep it up if you whiff and Wario didn't punish in any way.

 

[Shaya]

I'll port this academy side sometime soon, pending I guess easier public vision for people.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

There is no room for a jump with shulks air slash 1?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

There is no room for a jump with shulks air slash 1?

You just barely have time to hit with anything out of grab release; waiting the extra 5f or whatever for Shulk's feet to leave the ground would make it way too slow. Likewise, stuff like ZSS up special 1 or the various G&W up special variants are probably fast enough, but they just don't hit in the right position and you just don't have time to take a few steps forward (Wario will be able to airdodge if you try). Only moves that hit just right from where you do the release and that hit very fast seem to work; this isn't a big window. Shulk air slash 1 is actually pretty quirky in the way the second hit just whiffs (I think it hits at very low percent but not generally); it seems like it should work well and then it just... doesn't, and Wario can VI the first hit to make the whiff of the second hit a big whiff or an "almost" hit but either way it's just not working.

 

[Locuan]

From a Lucina main standpoint, it's interesting to note that if you perform the combo on the edge of FD it will not be an SD. You are still able to grab the edge even when the up-b 2 has so much horizontal motion. Because of that, you can technically KO Mario at 85% and Luigi at 76% assuming they do not perform an input to survive (vectoring? Has the naming debate been settled?).

I personally really prefer default Dolphin Slahs on Marth, for example. But I don't main any of these guys; I'm interested to hear opinions.

Assuming that custom moves do get allowed in future tournaments I also prefer the default Dolphin Slash. That being said, the effect of the grab release combo regarding these match-ups merits more testing. By the looks of things though, it seems like a tool that will give a good edge against those characters seeing as it is possible to KO. I do not want to theory-craft even further but assuming custom moves are legal, and that you can change between them as counter-pick options, I do believe using up-b 2 would be beneficial. If you cannot have "counter-pick custom sets" then I believe it would be a risk to use up-b 2 only for those match-ups. But I digress, I am pretty sure someone out there would be able to use up-b 2 for every match-up successfully.

Also many thanks to you and @ Amazing Ampharos for the research.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

There's some niche use here. Can MK do the "suicide" combo holding off the edge of a platform, too?

Also grab release means Mac can hit confirm KO punch without having to waste it on a potential whiff. Still going to lose it if he gets hit on a whiffed grab, but worth considering if you really need to be sure you get that kill

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

There's some niche use here. Can MK do the "suicide" combo holding off the edge of a platform, too?

Also grab release means Mac can hit confirm KO punch without having to waste it on a potential whiff. Still going to lose it if he gets hit on a whiffed grab, but worth considering if you really need to be sure you get that kill

To question 1, yes and it might not be guaranteed suicide in that situation. If anyone were to stand on the edge of a platform with no other platform in the path of their jump break arc with MK (who selected up special 2) standing on the rest of the platform such that MK could run over and grab them with their feet dangling over the thin air, MK could get a good follow-up and even survive the attempt (though most non-Wario characters will have a chance to airdodge). I do not imagine this will come up very often in practice. Likewise, if you're playing on a steep slope (like Distant Planet), you can see this all the time, but I do not believe any stages likely to be permanently legal in smash 3ds have such a feature.

For part 2, yes, that's true; I imagine this will be specifically important to know for the Little Mac v Wario match-up. I think the reason this is mostly downplayed is to emphasize how it's nowhere near gamebreaking (it's not *that much* better than Little Mac's ability to just KO Punch otherwise), but I agree it's useful.

 

[DanGR]

I'm interested in seeing grab release combos involving separated Luma. I understand there may be too many to write down all of them- perhaps only listing notable ones?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm interested in seeing grab release combos involving separated Luma. I understand there may be too many to write down all of them- perhaps only listing notable ones?

I'd like to point out that Luma won't take orders while Rosalina is committed to either the grab or the grab release animation. Now there is a window in which a free Luma could hit any character doing a jump break as long as Luma was correctly positioned and the move had sufficiently good frame data for Luma (I'm pretty sure utilt works decently often), but this requires substantial set-up to the point that it's going to be really easy to figure out with good 60 fps video from Wii U (so we can get Luma's frame data and the exact frame advantage of jump break, which I estimate to be 10f or less) but is not very practical to test as of now. It's also worth noting that in many situations Rosalina can use this sort of set-up to combo from a throw instead of from grab relese which is of course better since the throw does direct damage on top of what Luma's hit will do.

We are pretty certain, if Luma is united with Rosalina (or dead or in a useless position), that Rosalina gets nothing from grab release.

 

[DanGR]

Just don't have the equipment to test it on the 3ds, eh.

Some food for thought for desynched combos: I don't yet fully understand the intricacies of grab release mechanics in sm4sh relating to pummeling/releasing airborne/on ground, unless they behave similarly to Brawl's, but I'm positive the airborne release where characters travel in a reverse parabola trajectory leads into a jab1+2, which might combo into a smash or more jabs on some characters.

I'm excited, myself, to test out air release combos where Luma is walking back to Rosalina from being launched out instead of in her default resting distance away from Rosalina. Potentially, she'd have grab release-> Luma ftilt toward Rosa -> grab ->release-> X Luma attack/smash.

Not to mention desynched Rosa and Luma both jab1,2, and jab-hold while facing each other out of a grab release. Of course this kind of thing is rare at best, considering you can't actively make Luma face a different direction without moving Rosalina in a direction herself or using a tilt/smash.

 

[<π]

great thread. Thanks again guys.

 

[Remzi]

Thank you so much for doing this fellas. I posted on the Marth/Lucina boards about grab release > crescent slash. That makes it a great option for certain matchups. It's a relief to see how far and few between these GR combos are in general, though.

 

[MrEh]

Bowser can up angled Ftilt Wario out of an air release.
This is a groundbreaking discovery and changes the matchup completely.

 

[Thinkaman]

Bowser can up angled Ftilt Wario out of an air release.

Nope, real human Wario can jump way sooner than any standard ground-based attack could ever allow, even Rosalina u-smash.

Dolphin Slash is barely fast enough to hit him!

 

[MrEh]

****, so it's like Brawl then. Where you can act before the animation is visually done.

Ah well, that would have been terrible anyway.

 

[Thinkaman]

****, so it's like Brawl then. Where you can act before the animation is visually done.

Yeah, the CPUs just don't, hence the misleading hysteria.

 

[BJN39]

So, is it certain whether or not Zelda can GR Wario into sweetspotted FAir? I can only test with a non-moving opponent, so... I can't really test, lol.

 

[Thinkaman]

So, is it certain whether or not Zelda can GR Wario into sweetspotted FAir? I can only test with a non-moving opponent, so... I can't really test, lol.

Nope, not even close.

 

[BJN39]

Nope, not even close.

Lol okay. Thanks.

 

[Masonomace]

Oh my yes. Ampharos & Thinkaman this thread is good stuff. Shulk's Up-B Custom aka Advancing Air Slash deals 5% for the first hit, & 8% for the second hit, implying that Shulk hits at close-range. So yes, I think it is very much worth taking AAS for Shulk versus Wario. AAS's 2nd hit deals nice lateral knockback that can KO relatively early near the ledge, & ofc the Monado Arts can change / affect the KO potential or the damage dealt with Buster or Smash.

 

[Tagxy]

So what about grab release DACUS'? Such as sheiks?

 

[Thinkaman]

So what about grab release DACUS'? Such as sheiks?

The enemy can jump.

 

[Tagxy]

Funny Ive been seeing multiple posts on facebook saying theyre waiting for WiiU sheik to own ppl with grab release dacus, but I trust you way more, lol

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Has anyone tested grab pummel releases over the ledge? Not sure how much hitstun they have, but there may be something interesting.

Lucario may have a death combo involving the first hit of DAir and either a footstool or double jump DAir on Diddy depending on percent, but I haven't been able to find someone willing to fully test it with frame data.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Has anyone tested grab pummel releases over the ledge? Not sure how much hitstun they have, but there may be something interesting.

Lucario may have a death combo involving the first hit of DAir and either a footstool or double jump DAir on Diddy depending on percent, but I haven't been able to find someone willing to fully test it with frame data.

Fast pummels like Lucario's force ground breaks. Ground breaks are frame neutral at best for the grabber. I'm not sure if ground breaking over the air lets you act even sooner (to the victim's advantage), but I know there's no possible way for the grabber to combo from that situation. Something like that might work against AI since they will generally recovery along the exact same trajectory and thus will always fall into the same avoidable traps like that.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Fast pummels like Lucario's force ground breaks. Ground breaks are frame neutral at best for the grabber. I'm not sure if ground breaking over the air lets you act even sooner (to the victim's advantage), but I know there's no possible way for the grabber to combo from that situation. Something like that might work against AI since they will generally recovery along the exact same trajectory and thus will always fall into the same avoidable traps like that.

I was screwing around on For Glory against a human opponent when I had found this.

Hmmm you're right though about the grab pummel neutral at best, dang. Diddy does look like he's pretty much screwed in that position though. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[adlp]

wondering now if grab release combos exist now that vectoring is bye bye

 

[Luigi player]

wondering now if grab release combos exist now that vectoring is bye bye

Well Wario has a better air release now so he should be safe.

 

[Thinkaman]

wondering now if grab release combos exist now that vectoring is bye bye

Nope, vectoring only affected knockback.

Well Wario has a better air release now so he should be safe.

Yup, Wario's grab release is now normal.

 

[Azazel]

Why is Megaman still in the Hold high section? He visually "always holds high" but it acts just like like he is short. He has to hold victim over slopes/edges to force an air release.

 

[TitoTot]

Im gonna start learning marth 2moro. or should I jsut play lucina?

 

[YoHeKing]

This is a really old thread but I can confirm that there are a lot more air release combos for more characters but ive only tested them while using Yoshi. Yoshi air releases everyone and can air release rosalina without luma being able to mess him up.

• This involves platforms or grounds based like halberd and delpino.
• Slopes like on halberd and delpino.
• And Yoshis air release to dash attack on sheik(needs to be almost perfect. Definitely not impossible to do. I actually pull it off most of the time).

Im updating this thread right now and making a video about it.

 

[Masonomace]

So I actually came across finding a true grab release setup with Shulk, so far. When Shulk grabs Jigglypuff & chooses to not pummel or throw, Jigglypuff is naturally air released above Shulk, where Shulk can then Air Slash & hold it forward which is a true hit confirm. Even if Jigglypuff holds away to drift & mash airdodge, Shulk's rising Air Slash 5% sourspot scoops her & can finish with the 2nd hit as long as you input it quickly. Proper ways of DI are required to find out if this is a solid true setup or not.

Although, I've noticed that Jigglypuff can choose an alternative & use Rest to avoid it, but that'll hurt a lot more than help.

 

[Lavani]

So I actually came across finding a true grab release setup with Shulk, so far. When Shulk grabs Jigglypuff & chooses to not pummel or throw, Jigglypuff is naturally air released above Shulk, where Shulk can then Air Slash & hold it forward which is a true hit confirm. Even if Jigglypuff holds away to drift & mash airdodge, Shulk's rising Air Slash 5% sourspot scoops her & can finish with the 2nd hit as long as you input it quickly. Proper ways of DI are required to find out if this is a solid true setup or not.

Although, I've noticed that Jigglypuff can choose an alternative & use Rest to avoid it, but that'll hurt a lot more than help.

Can Jigglypuff double jump away and immediately airdodge to avoid it?

I don't think she actually gets to the iframes of her airdodge in time (her airdodge blows), but the fact that it doesn't puff up her hurtbox like her normal double jump animation might be enough.

 

[Masonomace]

Can Jigglypuff double jump away and immediately airdodge to avoid it?

I don't think she actually gets to the iframes of her airdodge in time (her airdodge blows), but the fact that it doesn't puff up her hurtbox like her normal double jump animation might be enough.

I figured out about a week ago that if she tries to mash doublejump to escape, she'll still be hit but she gets launched so high that you can't hit with the second hit of Air Slash after getting hit from the rising scoop first hit. However, Jump art Air Slash catches her airdodge or doublejump option, so Jump art Air Slash from grab release is the only true setup.

 

[UberMadman]

I figured out about a week ago that if she tries to mash doublejump to escape, she'll still be hit but she gets launched so high that you can't hit with the second hit of Air Slash after getting hit from the rising scoop first hit. However, Jump art Air Slash catches her airdodge or doublejump option, so Jump art Air Slash from grab release is the only true setup.

Haha, I was actually going to say "Hey, I saw a youtube video on just this subject a little while ago!" and I had left to fetch the video when I saw the name of the channel...

...it was an interesting video, Masonomace . Might as well post it here anyways if you're not going to.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Been searching for a bit, but is there a list anywhere of characters that cannot use their Up B again after being grab released from the ledge? (If there is would it be possible to add that to this thread, please?) If there isn't I'll be happy to test stuff.