MartinAW4
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2014
- Messages
- 312
Greninja damage comparison
Kill percents vs Mario from the edge of Final Destination
Detailed notes on moves
Grab:
- standing and pivot grabs got a 1 frame start-up buff at the cost of significantly longer end lag
- dash grab got +4 frames of start-up and +10 frames of end lag
Details:
- difficult to shield grab moves due to more shield stun
- pivot grab range is huge, now it is displayed with a very long water hitbox
- dash into Standing Grab is now better than Dash Grab
Hydro Pump:
+ can do two pumps horizontally even on the ground. You can go twice in one direction or even once towards the opponent and then back to snipe them with water. In Smash 4 this was impossible to do on the ground. You had to jump in order to do it.
- sliding was almost entirely removed
- knockback from the water was reduced
Jab:
- Jab 1 and Jab 2 have weaker combo potential into other moves like Dtilt or Smashes
+ Rapid Jab is much more reliable though and can be kept going for some nice damage
Dtilt:
+ faster start-up than in Smash 4
+ comboes into Usmash more reliably
- combo into Fair is harder but still possible at high %
- lower damage
Dash Attack:
+ amazing move, one of Greninja's best
+ higher damage
+ comboes into Usmash at low percent
+ comboes into Uair or Fair and higher percents
+ harder to punish on shield
+ can even cross up opponents
- harder to combo into Fair, go for Uair or Usmash instead
Usmash:
+ hitboxes were improved so you can land the sweetspot on opponents standing on platforms
- Greninja's last move that still needs a bit of fixing. While it does work better, there are still cases when the first sweetspot hit does not lead to the second one or leads to the sourspot. And in general the move trades with other moves it should easily outrange.
Global change to short hop aerials:
- now all short hop aerials get a 0.85 damage modifier, which means they deal 15% less damage and very slightly less knockback (around 2% less knockback). This applies to all aerials and all characters in the game.
Nair:
+ harder to punish on shield
+ hitbox is active longer. From frames 12-16 in Smash 4 to 12-19 in Ultimate. This makes it a lot easier to land vs opponents.
- knockback angle at higher percents is worse for comboing into Fair
- still among the slowest Nairs in the game, probably the main move to consider buffing frame data wise (both start-up and end lag are really long for a Nair) with balance patches. It's still a good move though even at its current state, so the frame data buffs should be compensated by reducing its damage.
Fair:
+ knockback buffed nicely, now it kills as soon as you'd expect from a 14 damage move.
- timing for spacing fastfall Fairs changed. Now you need to use it sooner after the short hop so you land it on grounded opponents. Fair start-up is still 16 frames though like in Smash 4, so this change is actually due to the increase in Greninja air speed and not the actual move being nerfed.
Fully charged Shuriken:
+ damage has been buffed while retaining similar kill potential
+ travels faster and farther (this can catch people off guard who are used to your uncharged Shuriken range)
- size seems to be slightly reduced, making it easier to airdodge
- combos are harder but you can still get a Fair off it if you run after it at lower %
I will be progressively updating this thread as I find more info on its moves. Overall I am liking the new Greninja so far. It kills a lot more reliably and feels buffed overall.
Kill percents vs Mario from the edge of Final Destination
Detailed notes on moves
Grab:
- standing and pivot grabs got a 1 frame start-up buff at the cost of significantly longer end lag
- dash grab got +4 frames of start-up and +10 frames of end lag
Details:
Smash 4 Standing Grab = hitbox on frame 11, can shield soonest on frame 29
Smash Ultimate Standing Grab = hitbox on frame 10, can shield soonest on frame 40
Smash 4 Dash Grab = hitbox on frame 9, can shield soonest on frame 38
Smash Ultimate Dash Grab = hitbox on frame 13, can shield soonest on frame 48
Smash 4 Pivot Grab = hitbox on frame 15, can shield soonest on frame 37
Smash Ultimate Pivot Grab = hitbox on frame 14, can shield soonest on frame 43
Smash Ultimate Standing Grab = hitbox on frame 10, can shield soonest on frame 40
Smash 4 Dash Grab = hitbox on frame 9, can shield soonest on frame 38
Smash Ultimate Dash Grab = hitbox on frame 13, can shield soonest on frame 48
Smash 4 Pivot Grab = hitbox on frame 15, can shield soonest on frame 37
Smash Ultimate Pivot Grab = hitbox on frame 14, can shield soonest on frame 43
- pivot grab range is huge, now it is displayed with a very long water hitbox
- dash into Standing Grab is now better than Dash Grab
Hydro Pump:
+ can do two pumps horizontally even on the ground. You can go twice in one direction or even once towards the opponent and then back to snipe them with water. In Smash 4 this was impossible to do on the ground. You had to jump in order to do it.
- sliding was almost entirely removed
- knockback from the water was reduced
Jab:
- Jab 1 and Jab 2 have weaker combo potential into other moves like Dtilt or Smashes
+ Rapid Jab is much more reliable though and can be kept going for some nice damage
Dtilt:
+ faster start-up than in Smash 4
+ comboes into Usmash more reliably
- combo into Fair is harder but still possible at high %
- lower damage
Dash Attack:
+ amazing move, one of Greninja's best
+ higher damage
+ comboes into Usmash at low percent
+ comboes into Uair or Fair and higher percents
+ harder to punish on shield
+ can even cross up opponents
- harder to combo into Fair, go for Uair or Usmash instead
Usmash:
+ hitboxes were improved so you can land the sweetspot on opponents standing on platforms
- Greninja's last move that still needs a bit of fixing. While it does work better, there are still cases when the first sweetspot hit does not lead to the second one or leads to the sourspot. And in general the move trades with other moves it should easily outrange.
Global change to short hop aerials:
- now all short hop aerials get a 0.85 damage modifier, which means they deal 15% less damage and very slightly less knockback (around 2% less knockback). This applies to all aerials and all characters in the game.
Nair:
+ harder to punish on shield
+ hitbox is active longer. From frames 12-16 in Smash 4 to 12-19 in Ultimate. This makes it a lot easier to land vs opponents.
- knockback angle at higher percents is worse for comboing into Fair
- still among the slowest Nairs in the game, probably the main move to consider buffing frame data wise (both start-up and end lag are really long for a Nair) with balance patches. It's still a good move though even at its current state, so the frame data buffs should be compensated by reducing its damage.
Fair:
+ knockback buffed nicely, now it kills as soon as you'd expect from a 14 damage move.
- timing for spacing fastfall Fairs changed. Now you need to use it sooner after the short hop so you land it on grounded opponents. Fair start-up is still 16 frames though like in Smash 4, so this change is actually due to the increase in Greninja air speed and not the actual move being nerfed.
Fully charged Shuriken:
+ damage has been buffed while retaining similar kill potential
+ travels faster and farther (this can catch people off guard who are used to your uncharged Shuriken range)
- size seems to be slightly reduced, making it easier to airdodge
- combos are harder but you can still get a Fair off it if you run after it at lower %
I will be progressively updating this thread as I find more info on its moves. Overall I am liking the new Greninja so far. It kills a lot more reliably and feels buffed overall.
Last edited: