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Guides!

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
...Or our lack thereof.

We don't really have a lot of character-specific video guides. The majority of the video guides in existence are largely outdated, miss a bunch of important modern techniques, don't really teach fundamentals but rather focus on miscellaneous behaviors, are focused on a single technique, or simply aren't very informative.

I feel accessibility is one of our game's major issues. Our game is riddled with situational nonsense, inconsistencies, and (at least on a surface level) we have so much freedom with stylistic decisions it can be difficult for new players to find an effective starting point.

I think it would be a really good idea if we could step up our educational tools and work to make some simple video guides that could provide new people picking up the game a reasonable starting point for their character. They don't have to be extremely indepth or anything, or go too far into matchups. But even something simple like, "In order to play Peach effectively, you have to be comfortable with your float game because she defends, transitions into offense, and can hold beneficial positions in it against most characters blah blah blah" and while the speaker is speaking, demonstrate the various float heights (maybe bullets explaining why the heights are useful in different situations or something) and maybe include common ways of doing the input. Tricks, even. Some people claw for fast FCs, for instance, which I think is a pretty neat idea.

It seems like a lot of work because we'd need knowledgeable people to compile a list of basics for each character. I'm not sure how long these would wind up being because I honestly have no idea how much we'd want to put into them. But I think if we could get good people constructing these, or at least providing a framework for the guide's construction, it would significantly help those trying to get into the game.

So yeah. What do you think about something like this? Would it be something you'd be interested in?
 

Varist

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
1,603
Location
Austin
The most ideal format for something like that, in my opinion, would be a "tree" of sorts, letting new players judge where they are as players and watch the videos they need to at the pace they should. Just have a big sticky in caps at the top of every Melee board saying "IF YOU ARE NEW, YOU WILL ENJOY WATCHING THIS." For example:

  • Total Beginner: You have no idea how to do tilts, what a "fair" is, or how to set the game to stocks or unlock 'stage striking'. You think Roy is an excellent character.

Watch these.

Intro to professional lingo: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blablabloob]
Intro to basic game functions: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blablabloob]

  • Novice: Your movement with any character is awkward and you often do things accidentally without a vague idea of how you did that thing. You know how to use all your basic moves, but not necessarily with consistency.

Watch these.

Intro to character control: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blablabloob]
Intro to stage manipulation and mechanics: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blablabloob]

And on and on, eventually getting to the point where all the game's inherent mechanics have been explained, and knowing which character is best for you, then getting closer to professional level.

I agree that the best format for these kinds of videos is a voice-over describing a technique or concept that they are illustrating in the video, right there in the game.
 

-ShadowPhoenix-

Smash Bash
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Messages
2,295
Location
El Paso, Texas
NNID
ShdwPhnx
3DS FC
2595-1989-8575
i think the biggest problem is most current guides are either outdated or are for people who are just barely getting into the game. i think there should be more guides for the average melee player who just wants to get better and do well in tournament
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
im interested in making videos

once i get a job and buy recording equipment and get motivated
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,545
but KK
we're supposed to make sure people stay bad so we can win tourneys :/
 

Mr Wizzrobe

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Messages
438
Location
Moncton, New Brunswick
I think if the community is motivated enough we can make it happen for at least the top 8 characters.

We should open up a section on each of the character boards and have their respective players discuss what should be mentioned in the videos, and have one person capture footage, another provide narration, and another for putting it all together. The videos should obviously be scripted, and catered to players who are new to the game. I think that making a video for a novice-level player would be exceedingly difficult, because it's hard to relate to how bad they are now that we take everything we do for granted.

However, character specific guides could be extremely beneficial to intermediate players, and even high level players for that matter. I'm totally in on this.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
The way I envisioned the video guide was basically to go something like:

Video starts:

ROY

1. Brief explanation of character

This section would be pretty straight forward. Here I'd address all the little things. Roy is considered low tier by and large. This is because of his moves being particularly susceptible to crouch cancel, among other things. Just a quick character outline. Doesn't have to be long. After watching this section, the viewer knows roughly where Roy stands against the rest of the cast.

At this point, I'd provide a list of common advanced techniques or terminology that will be used for the guide, with a link to a SWF thread outlining how to do them. I'd probably highight the ones that are important to execute with Roy (dash dance, WD, SHFFL, etc).

2. Explanation of the character's basics

Ideally, this section would expand upon the stuff talked about in section 1. It could be split up into a group of sections like:

1) Offense
- Roy is fast, has good movement, relatively quick moves with decent range
- Roy is bad versus crouch cancel so there's an emphasis on grabbing a lot
- You can't always grab because they can do X, Y, or Z to adjust for it
- Position these moves like this usually so you aren't CC punished, etc.

2) Defense
- Roy has a pretty decent crouch cancel game between d-tilt and grab (and misc. stuff)
- Roy's dash dance is a good tool defensively because <stuff>
- Roy's WD OOS is good defensively because <stuff>
- Shield game (WD OOS, roll, sidestep, shield grab, etc).

* At the end of this part, I'd probably remind the audience that this is a rough outline and they shouldn't limit themselves to just what's in the guide in terms of offense/defense. A lot of "defensive" techniques can be used aggressively, such as approaching with shield, or crouch canceling a get-up attack to get a forward smash (with footage to match respective things). Then a simple reminder to experiment with using tools in different ways.

3) Onstage Punishment
- Combos
- Tech chasing
- Chain grab
- Illegitimate juggles
- Misc. stuff

4) Offstage Punishment
- Edgeguarding basics vs recoveries
- Misc. stuff
- Ledge pressure




I'm not sure I'd want a third section but if I had one it would be matchup basics. I am hesitant to include this section because I'm not sure there's a lot of information out there for the entire cast, so I'm not sure where I'd draw the cut off point. Or if I'd draw one at all. I kind of think character-specific strategies or tidbits could be sprinkled throughout section 2. Or I could direct them to the appropriate character board here for further questions about specific matchups.

There are also a lot of stage-specific strategies for characters so I'd probably want to consider adding a section on that. Though I'm not sure.

Anyway, this is just my take on it.
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,766
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
This is a great idea that would be sick for the community! =)

I'd help with Falco and humbly volunteer myself for fox/marth/falcon if that is cool.

I don't have a means to record my voice, but KK you mentioned writing down the basics, which I could, at the least, collaborate with others to work on.
 

Kal

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
2,974
I'm planning on making a pretty in depth Marth video guide in the future. I need to decide how I want to approach this exactly, but I expect I will cover most of the matchups (save for the exceptionally rare ones) and as many advanced Marth strategies as I can.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
My goal is to focus mainly on the basics and avoid MUs because

1) not enough people agree on what you do vs what characters specifically
2) what characters do we include in this section? information availability is troublesome here
3) video length

I encourage you to work on your project, though. It just sounds like you're trying to do something different than me.
 

darkoblivion12

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 24, 2009
Messages
1,102
Location
Buffalo
I'd like to make the guide on Roy, seeing as how few Roy mains there are and I feel like i'm one of the very few active ones.
 

Rubyiris

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
6,033
Location
Tucson, AZ.
I'd like to contribute toward falco, if pp doesn't mind.

I'd also like to cover Roy and link and ask Vman if he wants to do Roy/yoshi

:phone:
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
I'm mainly looking for people with a lot of experience, and who have a good reputation. Participation is, of course, welcome. But the bulk of what goes into the content I want to be worked out by people I'm contacting, and whoever they suggest to me (because I don't know what's hip in the Roy/Luigi/Pichu/GAW/etc. boards).
 

Anth0ny

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Messages
4,061
Location
Toronto, Ontario
My goal is to focus mainly on the basics and avoid MUs because

1) not enough people agree on what you do vs what characters specifically
2) what characters do we include in this section? information availability is troublesome here
3) video length

I encourage you to work on your project, though. It just sounds like you're trying to do something different than me.
MU specific vids could come after the character specific vids. It would take forever to make a vid for EVERY matchup, so you could start with the popular ones (Marth/Falco, Fox/Falco, Fox/Jiggs), and then whatever.

Looking forward to this. Kirby Kaze and Pee Pee on board? toooooooo good.
 

Supreme Dirt

King of the Railway
Joined
Sep 28, 2009
Messages
7,336
I wish I could like threads.

Oh wait.

I can.

Totally hoping for a legit Young Link guide :D
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Whatever people do, a STANDARD for the video formats should be established first. We won't want the Fox video addressing 10 different things in a completely different order than the Falco video. I made a list of a bunch of stuff that could be included for video guides a while back, so I'll see if I can find that in my post history.
 

choknater

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 25, 2002
Messages
27,296
Location
Modesto, CA
NNID
choknater
this is an awesome idea

i'd gladly help contribute to ic's and ylink section if you wannna do all the chars haha
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
I'd love for Cosmo to do the Zelda vids.

And this is a splendid idea. Hopefully, enough people will be interested in doing this so that the workload can be spread out, and people won't feel overwhelmed/lazy/unmotivated. If that makes any sense.
 

FortGar

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 22, 2011
Messages
13
Just as an addendum to this, it'd be awesome if high level players would do post set commentaries. Just boot up a finals set or any high level set (or friendlies) on youtube, lower the original volume, and talk over it about why players are doing what they're doing. I think watching pros play is a large part of learning the game but I know I miss a lot of things and don't understand why players do what they do. Platform control, stage control, why they use one type of edge guard instead of another etc. stuff like that, basically the decision making going on behind the tech.

Obviously this is geared towards the semi-bad player who can almost fully control their character but don't know anything about match ups/use wrong moves, but I thought I throw the idea out there. Plus it'd be relatively easy, you don't have to do too much editing, just talk over a couple of videos and put it under a post game analysis header. Could also go over old games and talk about how the metagame has changed if anyone wants to do that.
 

Chim

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 13, 2011
Messages
9
Location
MWFL
Just as an addendum to this, it'd be awesome if high level players would do post set commentaries. Just boot up a finals set or any high level set (or friendlies) on youtube, lower the original volume, and talk over it about why players are doing what they're doing. I think watching pros play is a large part of learning the game but I know I miss a lot of things and don't understand why players do what they do. Platform control, stage control, why they use one type of edge guard instead of another etc. stuff like that, basically the decision making going on behind the tech.

Obviously this is geared towards the semi-bad player who can almost fully control their character but don't know anything about match ups/use wrong moves, but I thought I throw the idea out there. Plus it'd be relatively easy, you don't have to do too much editing, just talk over a couple of videos and put it under a post game analysis header. Could also go over old games and talk about how the metagame has changed if anyone wants to do that.
This needs immediate attention.

And just to add to the OP, I have a feeling that since this is the time in our game where recruiting is much more important--seeing as we're definitely not a new game people are willing to just hop on to--if we don't make these readily available for new(er) players, it will pose a major problem eventually. This whole community needs to be much more n00b-friendly; PEEF's most recent episode of SotG stands out to me here.
 

King Funk

Int. Croc. Alligator
Joined
Nov 1, 2008
Messages
2,972
Location
Copenhagen, Denmark
We are currently working on video guides in danish here, and I'm gonna record most of the footage for it. But I can surely contribute later on to this idea of yours by providing you with some of my footage. ^^
 

Wretched

Dankness of Heart
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
4,166
Location
New Mexico
KK, I had this same idea that I was going to do in video form with the local players here. Actually, I think if you pitched this idea to Wak, he'd be up for it. I already suggested it but he was hesitant.
 

TheLake

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 8, 2007
Messages
3,057
Location
Butler PA
This is gonna be sooo boss

I want to make guides for the following characters

Blue zelda, zelda, sheik, zelda from brawl

:D
 

ThatsPM

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 23, 2011
Messages
15
Idk if it has been stated, but I saw people talking about levels of players and what kind of videos they should watch (like the tree example). IMO the lower the level of play of the player that wants to learn, the simpler the tricks/advices he needs to learn, then once that is mastered, you go to harder stuff (duh?).

It has to be split between character specific and general info. and the higher the difficulty, the more character specific videos could be added.

So I say ofc you can skip what is covered in the game's how to play vid. Then some more basic videos (there are already some neat ones up on yt), but I don't think you need to go into character specific detals yet. Then there's the advanced techniques, which already have their own videos up, and can start mixing up general videos to character/situation specific.

Then the later stuff should contain match-ups, specific playstyles and such, character specific mostly.

Just saying we don't need to start from scratch, we shoudl look at old videos, get the good out of them, and add what's needed to be added :)

Gr8 idea, idk if I can help much, but I might bring some feedback from what happens (can't record + I'm not very good at the game)
 
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