Has the gap between skilled players and less skilled players increased in brawl?

[Masterplum]

I believe it has. Lately the better player has been winning more often and you dont really see bad players winning for wierd reasons unless its wifi. What do you guys think?

 

[FireKirby7]

I never thought of this, it's probably because of all the people getting Smash for Christmas.

 

[JesseMeza]

Brawl has certainly brought more spammers to the scene. (Thanks to characters like Meta Knight, Pit, Wolf) However, the skilled players always seem to overcome those obstacles. I'm sure Brawl was given a lot during Christmas, which is probably why we see a handful of beginners snooping around. (At least on wifi)

 

[Masterplum]

not really talking about wifi. im saying that skill is more important.

 

[Shadic]

I disagree wholeheartedly. A large amount of technical skill has been removed from the game. Recoveries have been made easier with auto-sweetspotting edges, L Canceling has been removed (Yes, there ARE some auto-canceling moves, but that's a different matter,) shield stun is gone, making defense much easier, wavedashing is gone, the combo potential is almost erased...

 

[Sigrid Fiinikkusu]

I disagree wholeheartedly. A large amount of technical skill has been removed from the game. Recoveries have been made easier with auto-sweetspotting edges, L Canceling has been removed (Yes, there ARE some auto-canceling moves, but that's a different matter,) shield stun is gone, making defense much easier, wavedashing is gone, the combo potential is almost erased...

Very true. It's sad that it's not so technical anymore.

 

[Tenki]

I disagree wholeheartedly. A large amount of technical skill has been removed from the game. Recoveries have been made easier with auto-sweetspotting edges, L Canceling has been removed (Yes, there ARE some auto-canceling moves, but that's a different matter,) shield stun is gone, making defense much easier, wavedashing is gone, the combo potential is almost erased...

That's nice and all, but how does it tie into the OP's point?

"Technical requirement" is not as demanding as Melee, of course, but when it comes down to it:
At upper levels of Melee play where technical ability is high, "all players" are able to use the 'same tools' (wavedash, L-cancel, chara-specific techs) and it breaks down to who can bait the opponent into mis-spacing to begin strings of moves for damage and/or kill.

In Brawl, where technical requirement is low (aside from 'defensive technical skill', like SDI and such), all players are able to use the 'same tools' (aside from chara-specific techs), and it breaks down to who can bait the opponent into mis-spacing to land hits, and continually try to bait and read the opponent's reaction to be able to land consecutive hits and finally, to land a kill move.

So in both games, at upper levels of play, pretty much all players are at about an equal level of technical skill/requirement, and it breaks down to who's better at baiting and punishing.

The OP's question is whether or not the better players are the ones who win in (offline) Brawl, where it was thought that Brawl is down to a point where bad players can defeat players who are exponentially better than them, because of a smaller skill gap.

I'd think it'd be fairly obvious that better players are usually the ones who win, unless factors like matchup inexperience or tripping are taken into account.

 

[Masterplum]

That's nice and all, but how does it tie into the OP's point?

"Technical requirement" is not as demanding as Melee, of course, but when it comes down to it:
At upper levels of Melee play where technical ability is high, "all players" are able to use the 'same tools' (wavedash, L-cancel, chara-specific techs) and it breaks down to who can bait the opponent into mis-spacing to begin strings of moves for damage and/or kill.

In Brawl, where technical requirement is low (aside from 'defensive technical skill', like SDI and such), all players are able to use the 'same tools' (aside from chara-specific techs), and it breaks down to who can bait the opponent into mis-spacing to land hits, and continually try to bait and read the opponent's reaction to be able to land consecutive hits and finally, to land a kill move.

So in both games, at upper levels of play, pretty much all players are at about an equal level of technical skill/requirement, and it breaks down to who's better at baiting and punishing.

The OP's question is whether or not the better players are the ones who win in (offline) Brawl, where it was thought that Brawl is down to a point where bad players can defeat players who are exponentially better than them, because of a smaller skill gap.

I'd think it'd be fairly obvious that better players are usually the ones who win, unless factors like matchup inexperience or tripping are taken into account.

I agree its just that alot of people were complaining that there was hardly a gap and that practicing would do no good because someone could easily play for an hour and possibly beat you. I never agreed with that but many people from this site think so and i was wondering if their opinion might have changed.

 

[Shadic]

So in both games, at upper levels of play, pretty much all players are at about an equal level of technical skill/requirement, and it breaks down to who's better at baiting and punishing.

Nobody had truly had perfect technical skill in Melee, though.

And it should have been obvious how my previous post related to the topic at hand. There was a huge technical gap in skill between those who have played more in Melee, and less in Melee. The significance and limit of technical skill in Brawl is much lower than it was in Melee. With mostly only the metagame to go on, the difference is smaller.

 

[camzaman]

The gap between the TECHNICALLY skilled players and LESS TECHNICALLY SKILLED players has DECREASED, permitting those with good strategy but not super human hands to compete with the tech gods that used to play Melee...

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Has it? It has?

You just made my day

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Has it? It has?

You just made my day

 

[Phantomwake]

I always assumed that the gap between good players and not as good players came from technical skill, I played melee, and ssb, for that matter for years without even l-canceling and I was the best I had played till I went to college, where I found out how bad I was.

Brawl, unarguably, requires less technical skill to play well than melee does, so unless there are people walking around winning melee tournaments without wavedashing I think that the limited technicality diminishes the gap between the best players and the worst players.

Granted thanks to wifi you do see more worse players in brawl than you do in melee but those players still existed in melee.

 

[East]

Brawl, unarguably, requires less technical skill to play well than melee does, so unless there are people walking around winning melee tournaments without wavedashing I think that the limited technicality diminishes the gap between the best players and the worst players.

Some people consider it a blessing, others despise it. Sakurai set out to make Brawl a less competitive game, and I would say he did a **** good job of it.... Not that that spells out any good things for this community. We have to keep our heads up though. The games still young and there's much to be learned [I hope.]

 

[The Real Gamer]

Why does everything have to be tied with Melee ffs?

Anyway yes the gap has widened. If you watch a lot of the better players you can see that they are greatly improving. However, noobs will always be noobs, so there is a definite increase in the gap.

 

[TLMarth]

It's less to do with technical skill and more to do with...
...

Spoiler

mindgames
and tactical knowledge (i.e. character match ups, how to counter certain moves)

 

[Shadic]

But all of the depth that was in Brawl is also in Melee, with very few exceptions.

I like Brawl as much as anybody, but the game was set out to minimize on aspects that alienated plays in Melee, and the game has become less technical as a result. I don't see how anybody here tries to argue that less technical skill means that the gap between skilled players and nonskilled increases,/i]. There's no logical connection there.

Yes, you have to think in Brawl. But yes, you had to think in Melee too.

 

[choknater]

I think knowledge of the game, consistency, and strategy make this game what it is. Tech skill isn't really even an issue anymore. Like Tenki said, it's the smartest players who are able to bait their opponents who win.

And yes, I do think the gap has increased... A newbie would definitely get 3-stocked, and would have to learn a lot about the game to keep up with how the metagame is evolving right now. Yes, it is easy to learn chain grabs and cheap techniques, but it's still a matter of being able to punish the opponent in order to actually use them. What good is Falco's chain grab if he can't grab a very smart, camping Pit? Knowing all the options and tiny nuances of the game can make a great player.

 

[Osi]

Anyone will become better at a game given time and practice, so it's only natural brawl is becoming a bit more divided between the great users and the bad. There is much debate for how much easier it is to become great in brawl because you are able to focus on mindgames and counters without the hard technicle play. Taking away this did remove one element from the game that decided the match, but it's not like all competitive elements are gone. There are just simply less in brawl. Melee still had these mind games and counter elements, but they were tied into tech skill. The ability to administer productive mind games and counters also relied on a vast knowledge of technical skill. Some would say that losing this portion of the smash series made it more of a shallow game based on the smaller amount of time to learn a character well.

Sakurai did not like the hard learning curve from tech skill and wanted to avoid it in brawl. This way anyone can pick up the game and not feel overwhelmed. This does not mean they will beat a great player by luck often. It just means that they will not be limited by inexperience on the technical side. They will still lose due to a lack of counter/match-up knowledge, and the inability to read an opponent as well.

Comparing it to melee isn't very fair though. I think it should only be compared to shared elements from 64 and melee that were removed. Brawl is its own game and should be seen that way, but it is a part of a series... so shared elements in the series up to this point that are lost now must be mentioned. Things like manual lag cancels, hitstun, and edge punishment during up B were removed. The lasting effects of it is simply there is less to master in brawl. Plenty of other fighters are simple, and they still develop as time progresses. It's hard to say if brawl has lasting power or not at this point. 2 or 3 years down the road if the top players now are still on brawl and progressing then it's going to be a success competitively. The largest worry is that the top players now will hit a wall and not be able to progress well because the game is too simple. Melee was never perfected in 7 years due to how deep it was with all of these elements, and I hope brawl can be the same.

 

[Phantomwake]

if I am understanding the arguments correctly,

Brawl has a wider gap between players than melee because technical skill us less important and thus mindgames and spacing, ie playing smart, is more difficult to master in brawl than to do so in melee in addition to the technical aspect of melee

short version

Playing smart > Playing smart + Technicality ??

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Not at all.

Seriously, what the hell were you smoking when you made this thread?

 

[Aeropup]

In melee, high level play involved pressing buttons really quickly in the correct order. Some thinking is involved, but it's mostly fast hands.

In Brawl, you have to watch your opponent, camp, space and bait. You also have to know your matchups well. You have to play intelligently.

So this means that all the less intelligent people play melee

 

[Zeonix]

The Wii and all it's games were intended to be almost all family games, not for hard core gamers...so this same group is getting Brawl and not doing much with it.....

And the part about less intelligent people playing melee is not true....

I still think that Brawl is fo rnoobs and that it's mainly for button spamming mainly becuase it's really pointless to try to get good at it when melee is there with all it's fast paced action.....sorry but I don't like brawl much....

 

[hippochinfat!!]

In melee, high level play involved pressing buttons really quickly in the correct order. Some thinking is involved, but it's mostly fast hands.

In Brawl, you have to watch your opponent, camp, space and bait. You also have to know your matchups well. You have to play intelligently.

So this means that all the less intelligent people play melee

That's complete bull****.

Melee required MORE thinking then Brawl, there were more options and it was faster, how did it require less intelligence? You didn't even explain.

All the new users who never played Melee competitively really annoy me.

 

[Tenki]

if I am understanding the arguments correctly,

Brawl has a wider gap between players than melee because technical skill us less important and thus mindgames and spacing, ie playing smart, is more difficult to master in brawl than to do so in melee in addition to the technical aspect of melee

short version

Playing smart > Playing smart + Technicality ??

nonono.

The point isn't that Brawl's skill gap is greater than Melee, because it isn't. Brawl's spacing is basically who can control placement via aerial movement, projectiles, walking, attacks, etc. Melee's spacing was all that AND wavedashing (extra movement/feinting/punish option) and L-cancelling (less landing lag), which means that players need to be able to think AND move at a faster pace. This would make it require a larger skill gap because it needs more technical ability at a faster speed.

The point is that there is a more noticeable skill gap in Brawl right now between good and bad players than there was in say, mid-April.

 

[da K.I.D.]

its true, i play sonic and i can consistently 2-3 stock people that I know are worse than me.

the gap between good, so so and bad players is gettting much bigger as time progresses,

so what if they can airdodge after every attack, predict it and punish it.

so what if theres no l-cancelling, learn to use your low lag and Ac moves when you know you are going to hit the ground, and in my personal opinion, that makes the game more skill heavy because you have to think more about what airials you want to use when and you cant just throw out ganon f-airs all day like you did in melee. but thats just me.

so what if theres no shield stun, that makes your spacing better, cus you have to get max range out of all your attacks so that you dont get punished.

theres definitely a much bigger skill gap between bad players and good, its why M2K 3 stocks everyother MK out there...

 

[ShenCS]

The gap between good and bad players has increased in Brawl BECAUSE less experience is needed.
Back in Melee, when it was all tech skill, a bad player could spend ages learning the techniques and could stand up to some degree against better players. But the player would still be a bad player, but would beat a better player who has just started the game because he knows more.
Here in Brawl, being bad at the game is actually punished. You can't get in a lucky shot and follow it up to look like you've done something. You get a lucky shot and the better player just shrugs it off and continues 3-stocking you. The lack of experience required to get to grips with Brawl means that a good player who's just picked up the game could make a decent dent in a bad player who's had the game for a while.
If that makes sense.

 

[da K.I.D.]

it makes perfect sence to me.

I never even thought of it that particular way before. i especially like the part about lucky hits lol

 

[SSD]

I don't think this is about brawl vs melee guys...

It's about how brawl was like for the months following it's release vs brawl now

and I'd say it has. The less skilled people progress at a slower rate than the more skilled people, making that gap larger.

 

[POKE40]

doesn't that apply to all multiplayer games
all the better players win rather than the bad players...unless the match is based on random chances
But no. the gap has Significantly decreased. Wavedashing (and L-cancelling since there is auto L cancel) is gone w/o hax. Less thinking in Brawl, if you aren't put into the pyschological battles. nuff said

 

[Phantomwake]

nonono.

The point isn't that Brawl's skill gap is greater than Melee, because it isn't. Brawl's spacing is basically who can control placement via aerial movement, projectiles, walking, attacks, etc. Melee's spacing was all that AND wavedashing (extra movement/feinting/punish option) and L-cancelling (less landing lag), which means that players need to be able to think AND move at a faster pace. This would make it require a larger skill gap because it needs more technical ability at a faster speed.

The point is that there is a more noticeable skill gap in Brawl right now between good and bad players than there was in say, mid-April.

Oooh I totally agree now that we are arguing the same topic, but it seems that this should have been expected. Players get better at different rates and Brawl is being picked up by a lot of players who feel good enough about their skill that they would attend a tournament, because you do not have to be able to shffl to do well in a tournament. What that creates is more people who are not pro at brawl attending tournaments. I think it is great for the community and the game and the players who will eventually get better. In lots of games or sports people often increase their skills more when they attend a tournament than when they "practice."

short version
I agree with Tenki

 

[br4n]

In melee, high level play involved pressing buttons really quickly in the correct order. Some thinking is involved, but it's mostly fast hands.

So this means that all the less intelligent people play melee

dude are you serious. i hate you

 

[Baro]

dude are you serious. i hate you

Well, it was a rather exaggerated point, but it made me lol... but also worry -.-

 

[Sonic on the Rocks]

However hilarious Aeropup's post is, it misses the point.
The gap between skill levels has increased, though by my judgement, it's not by as much as some think.
Just putting my two cents in. >_>

 

[Flowbeat]

intelligence does not only include fast thinking skills

 

[Tianxiazhai]

Lets not turn this into another Melee vs Brawl...

 

[Archangel]

When you bring up skill gaps you bring up Melee by default. We all know Brawl has more characters, more and New moves and less dimensions. It's such a straight forward game that anyone can reach the max level in Brawl within a month. My mother actually can play the game competitively....no joke she isn't half bad either..lol. It's funny and sad at the same time but that's the way it was built. Slow, Stiff, Blocky, Laggy, Floaty. Basically it's a monkey see monkey do game. Monkey's get the game and see MK or snake played and they then they practice it and within a week or 2 they are max leveled. I'm not talking **** about the game but it is what it is. A simple game which makes the gap much smaller by default.

 

[yummynbeefy]

I disagree wholeheartedly. A large amount of technical skill has been removed from the game. Recoveries have been made easier with auto-sweetspotting edges, L Canceling has been removed (Yes, there ARE some auto-canceling moves, but that's a different matter,) shield stun is gone, making defense much easier, wavedashing is gone, the combo potential is almost erased...

thats what brawl+ is for

brawl should be hacked for competitive play
i can do without the wavedashing and sheild stun though i like auto sweet spotting ledges

 

[Archangel]

If Brawl was a perfect game and so much better then why would it be hacked? Thats my question. Nobody hacked 64 smash or Melee. Why Brawl? Think about it...

 

[Blad01]

I agree with this thread. The gap between noobs and top players is lagger now that 10 months ago. That's because the game has evolved, we now know how to deal with "broken" moves.