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Heavies Tier List

Djnth0llmn

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Sep 5, 2020
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Well, if you like the big boys in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, then this Heavy Fighter tier list is for you! They're all so different and some play completely opposite of each others' styles. It'll be harder to decide, so I wrote this to help. I ranked the ten heaviest Fighters in the game so you can see who's the better Heavy! I've played as and against these Fighters enough that I dare say my opinions aren't unfounded. Please do give me your opinions and if you like it, tell me!

Click here:
 

Janx_uwu

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Honestly, the only thing I disagree with is K. Rool being better than Ganon and plant. Other than that, I thought the placements were okay. Very good job!
 

Tiko

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 6, 2020
Messages
13
As a bowser main i can tell you he is NOT the best he loses to any half competent zoner/projectile spammer. His smashes are suppose to have armor, never feels like it. His side B can literally be controlled by your opponent to make you lose a advantageous stock.

his saving grace is he’s fast and he’s very heavy. Thats about it.

lets look at krool, super heavy, has a crown boomerang (heavy armor ability), cannon ball (zones and kos),vaccume (a bowser jumps over a cannonball only to sucked into his gun) has life saving body armor, insane recovery, a down throw/down tilt kill confirms at low % and a counter...

But then theres samus... i need not say more on this topic.

bowser can be good sure but he’s ill-equipped to deal with most of the ssbu roster.
 

Janx_uwu

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2,979
Location
Faraway Avalon
As a bowser main i can tell you he is NOT the best he loses to any half competent zoner/projectile spammer. His smashes are suppose to have armor, never feels like it. His side B can literally be controlled by your opponent to make you lose a advantageous stock.

his saving grace is he’s fast and he’s very heavy. Thats about it.

lets look at krool, super heavy, has a crown boomerang (heavy armor ability), cannon ball (zones and kos),vaccume (a bowser jumps over a cannonball only to sucked into his gun) has life saving body armor, insane recovery, a down throw/down tilt kill confirms at low % and a counter...

But then theres samus... i need not say more on this topic.

bowser can be good sure but he’s ill-equipped to deal with most of the ssbu roster.
Clearly someone did not do their research.
First of all, I'll say what you got wrong. His smashes do have damage-based heavy armor-down smash and up smash can take 10% and fsmash can take 12%. It only works on certain frames, but it's still amazing if a bit situational.

Side b can be controlled by your opponent, but it depends on the percentages. If your opponent is up and you're down in percents, they can't do as much. Whoever has the least percent gets the most control-at least, from what I've heard.

And, Bowser has so, so much more than "fast and very heavy."

Bowser has an amazing MU spread, no matchup is unwinnable, relatively frustrating at worst, EZ at best.

His combo game is simple yet brutal, dealing 40% off of a single up throw -> nair. Landing fair leads into dash grab among other things like up b and tech situations. Up tilt is also good for mixups and occasionally combos. Nair is his greatest combo tool by far, leading into basically any aerial move at many percents, as well as ftilt with the early back hit. This means Bowser has a very low % kill confirm on most characters. Jab can lead into dashgrab and also is good for jab lock -> dsmash. Up air is a very good combo starter on big characters.

Bowser can seamlessly edgeguard with down tilt and forward tilt, not to mention neutral b (invalidates nearly every recovery), runoff fair, runoff dair, runoff uair etc. Not to mention his side b which is amazing for suicide kills if used correctly.

He has some of the best ledgetrapping in the game. Holding shield lets you get a big punish on most anything. Up tilt at a certain spot covers every option (except character specific ones like jump -> counter). Buffered SH dair can kill your opponent early if they jump and it also covers getup attack and neutral getup. Down b catches hanging opponents and either spikes them or sets them up for a true back air follow up. Fair is very good at catching ledge jump as is up smash.

His kill potential needs no introduction. Damage based armor on every smash and tilt means you can pull one off if you think your opponent will attack you with a weak move. His grab range is freaking incredible (especially pivot grab) and fthrow and bthrow are really good kill options. All of his aerials are amazing at killing. All tilts are amazing at killing. All smashes are amazing at killing. Heck, even his JAB kills fairly early. Needless to say, as long as you're not rushing in and spamming mindlessly (which you shouldn't, as Bowser is a bait-and-punish character) you will have no problem closing out stocks.

Fire breath deals 40% max charge on average, if you get the closest hit first. Also works well for camping and aforementioned edgeguarding. Flying slam, while it can be altered by the opponent, is hardly ever an issue if you know how the move works. Kills incredibly early, and if they don't know how to DI it you can kill them off the top platform ridiculously early. Also can combo out of nair, meaning you can do that for a kill confirm. Down b is a move that is bad if you don't know how to use it well, but amazing if you do. Breaks shields at nearly full health, does crazy damage and knockback, can cover the majority of ledge options, and it can spike. Up b is a frame 6 get out of shield option, making it one of his best tools for playing the patience game. The recovery is good if you know you can mash B after the initial boost to gain much more height. Up B is also great for rushing into your opponent (generally it's better to not rush in, but do it if you feel the need to).

He has one of, if not, the best advantage game of the roster. As soon as the Bowser player gets a hit, and they know how to punish your options, there's a good chance you lose your stock to a Bowser string. If you're in the air, he has many tools to deal with that-up tilt and up smash are great. Double jump up air, I believe, is unreactable (up air is frame 9). If you're offstage, you better mix up your recovery as best as you can, because if he decides to runoff or fire breath, you're toast (no pun intended). On the ledge, you need to utilize character-specific options or do something completely unexpected, or you're toast. It will take lots of practice to get this good with his advantage state, and even I haven't exactly cracked its full potential yet. But I have played Bowser for well over a year now, so I've done really well in his advantage state.

This is not to say Bowser is invincible, not at all. While his kit itself is extremely good and one of the best standalone kits in the game in my opinion, his weaknesses lie in his character itself. He's combo food, and offstage he doesn't fare too well. His roll and techroll data are absolute s***, his directional airdodge doesn't exactly go far, down tilt and up b have inconsistent hitboxes, etc. Projectiles, though, aren't that much of a problem for Bowser, because he can jump over them, fastfall, and go on with his day. He doesn't automatically lose to zoners and combo characters, even if Young Link and Greninja, his worst MUs, can be a pain to fight, they're nowhere near impossible to beat. He's extremely well equipped to deal with most every character.

If you don't believe what I said above (or don't care for reading it) then take a look at his results. LeoN alone is top 30 PGR, and there's no other superheavy solo mains I can think of that are above him.

K. Rool is my secondary, and while I don't know him nearly as well as I know Bowser, I'm not blind to the fact that he's a low-mid tier at best.
super heavy
Bowser's heavier, you kind of contradict yourself there.
has a crown boomerang (heavy armor ability)
The move is quite good, I will say, and one of the better things he has.
cannon ball (zones and kos)
It's an okay move, but the startup and endlag is atrocious.
vaccume (a bowser jumps over a cannonball only to sucked into his gun)
If a Bowser jumped over the canonball, wouldn't he just down air?
insane recovery
Depends on your definition of "insane." If all you want in a recovery is sheer height and a hitbox, then good on you. But when recovering anywhere that isn't below the ledge, you can take advantage of him easily, since the hitbox is only on the top of him and it goes incredibly high and falls pretty slowly, meaning if Rool is recovering from the far right middle, he's dead. Landing lag is trash.
has life saving body armor
Belly armor is insane, but it also acts as a second way to get your shield broken. Needless to say, and in the words of a great hedgehog, "That's no good." Not to say his belly armor is bad, it's awesome, but it has a major downside.
a down throw/down tilt kill confirms at low %
I'm sorry, what? As far as I know, down throw kills at like 120% on most characters with good mashing. Down tilt is better but still, if you have any clip of getting a kill confirm at low % off of any of these moves please show me, I've never seen it been done before.
a counter...
The counter only covers the front of him, not the bottom, top, or back, so it's very situational relative to nearly any other counter in the game. It's good, but nothing to write home about. It also has awful endlag, meaning that if you're playing ping pong with someone with a faster reflector, or just miss a counter, you're getting hit.

K. Rool has some great things about him but ultimately its not enough to save his character. He's slow, many of his moves have considerable endlag, he can't zone all that well despite having two projectiles, his main gimmick is also his downfall when overused, recovery is awful, and he just doesn't have a great matchup spread, despite what some Rool mains might tell you. While at least all of Bowser's matchups are winnable, K. Rool's worst matchups are less so. Recently, Roolcord (the King K. Rool discord) had a crew battle with Linkcord and didn't take a single stock. So no, K. Rool is far from the best heavy and arguably the worst, though Dedede and DK aren't amazing either.

TL;DR Bowser is amazing, K. Rool is not nearly as good.
 

Tiko

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 6, 2020
Messages
13
Clearly someone did not do their research.
First of all, I'll say what you got wrong. His smashes do have damage-based heavy armor-down smash and up smash can take 10% and fsmash can take 12%. It only works on certain frames, but it's still amazing if a bit situational.

Side b can be controlled by your opponent, but it depends on the percentages. If your opponent is up and you're down in percents, they can't do as much. Whoever has the least percent gets the most control-at least, from what I've heard.

And, Bowser has so, so much more than "fast and very heavy."

Bowser has an amazing MU spread, no matchup is unwinnable, relatively frustrating at worst, EZ at best.

His combo game is simple yet brutal, dealing 40% off of a single up throw -> nair. Landing fair leads into dash grab among other things like up b and tech situations. Up tilt is also good for mixups and occasionally combos. Nair is his greatest combo tool by far, leading into basically any aerial move at many percents, as well as ftilt with the early back hit. This means Bowser has a very low % kill confirm on most characters. Jab can lead into dashgrab and also is good for jab lock -> dsmash. Up air is a very good combo starter on big characters.

Bowser can seamlessly edgeguard with down tilt and forward tilt, not to mention neutral b (invalidates nearly every recovery), runoff fair, runoff dair, runoff uair etc. Not to mention his side b which is amazing for suicide kills if used correctly.

He has some of the best ledgetrapping in the game. Holding shield lets you get a big punish on most anything. Up tilt at a certain spot covers every option (except character specific ones like jump -> counter). Buffered SH dair can kill your opponent early if they jump and it also covers getup attack and neutral getup. Down b catches hanging opponents and either spikes them or sets them up for a true back air follow up. Fair is very good at catching ledge jump as is up smash.

His kill potential needs no introduction. Damage based armor on every smash and tilt means you can pull one off if you think your opponent will attack you with a weak move. His grab range is freaking incredible (especially pivot grab) and fthrow and bthrow are really good kill options. All of his aerials are amazing at killing. All tilts are amazing at killing. All smashes are amazing at killing. Heck, even his JAB kills fairly early. Needless to say, as long as you're not rushing in and spamming mindlessly (which you shouldn't, as Bowser is a bait-and-punish character) you will have no problem closing out stocks.

Fire breath deals 40% max charge on average, if you get the closest hit first. Also works well for camping and aforementioned edgeguarding. Flying slam, while it can be altered by the opponent, is hardly ever an issue if you know how the move works. Kills incredibly early, and if they don't know how to DI it you can kill them off the top platform ridiculously early. Also can combo out of nair, meaning you can do that for a kill confirm. Down b is a move that is bad if you don't know how to use it well, but amazing if you do. Breaks shields at nearly full health, does crazy damage and knockback, can cover the majority of ledge options, and it can spike. Up b is a frame 6 get out of shield option, making it one of his best tools for playing the patience game. The recovery is good if you know you can mash B after the initial boost to gain much more height. Up B is also great for rushing into your opponent (generally it's better to not rush in, but do it if you feel the need to).

He has one of, if not, the best advantage game of the roster. As soon as the Bowser player gets a hit, and they know how to punish your options, there's a good chance you lose your stock to a Bowser string. If you're in the air, he has many tools to deal with that-up tilt and up smash are great. Double jump up air, I believe, is unreactable (up air is frame 9). If you're offstage, you better mix up your recovery as best as you can, because if he decides to runoff or fire breath, you're toast (no pun intended). On the ledge, you need to utilize character-specific options or do something completely unexpected, or you're toast. It will take lots of practice to get this good with his advantage state, and even I haven't exactly cracked its full potential yet. But I have played Bowser for well over a year now, so I've done really well in his advantage state.

This is not to say Bowser is invincible, not at all. While his kit itself is extremely good and one of the best standalone kits in the game in my opinion, his weaknesses lie in his character itself. He's combo food, and offstage he doesn't fare too well. His roll and techroll data are absolute s***, his directional airdodge doesn't exactly go far, down tilt and up b have inconsistent hitboxes, etc. Projectiles, though, aren't that much of a problem for Bowser, because he can jump over them, fastfall, and go on with his day. He doesn't automatically lose to zoners and combo characters, even if Young Link and Greninja, his worst MUs, can be a pain to fight, they're nowhere near impossible to beat. He's extremely well equipped to deal with most every character.

If you don't believe what I said above (or don't care for reading it) then take a look at his results. LeoN alone is top 30 PGR, and there's no other superheavy solo mains I can think of that are above him.

K. Rool is my secondary, and while I don't know him nearly as well as I know Bowser, I'm not blind to the fact that he's a low-mid tier at best.

Bowser's heavier, you kind of contradict yourself there.

The move is quite good, I will say, and one of the better things he has.

It's an okay move, but the startup and endlag is atrocious.

If a Bowser jumped over the canonball, wouldn't he just down air?

Depends on your definition of "insane." If all you want in a recovery is sheer height and a hitbox, then good on you. But when recovering anywhere that isn't below the ledge, you can take advantage of him easily, since the hitbox is only on the top of him and it goes incredibly high and falls pretty slowly, meaning if Rool is recovering from the far right middle, he's dead. Landing lag is trash.

Belly armor is insane, but it also acts as a second way to get your shield broken. Needless to say, and in the words of a great hedgehog, "That's no good." Not to say his belly armor is bad, it's awesome, but it has a major downside.

I'm sorry, what? As far as I know, down throw kills at like 120% on most characters with good mashing. Down tilt is better but still, if you have any clip of getting a kill confirm at low % off of any of these moves please show me, I've never seen it been done before.

The counter only covers the front of him, not the bottom, top, or back, so it's very situational relative to nearly any other counter in the game. It's good, but nothing to write home about. It also has awful endlag, meaning that if you're playing ping pong with someone with a faster reflector, or just miss a counter, you're getting hit.

K. Rool has some great things about him but ultimately its not enough to save his character. He's slow, many of his moves have considerable endlag, he can't zone all that well despite having two projectiles, his main gimmick is also his downfall when overused, recovery is awful, and he just doesn't have a great matchup spread, despite what some Rool mains might tell you. While at least all of Bowser's matchups are winnable, K. Rool's worst matchups are less so. Recently, Roolcord (the King K. Rool discord) had a crew battle with Linkcord and didn't take a single stock. So no, K. Rool is far from the best heavy and arguably the worst, though Dedede and DK aren't amazing either.

TL;DR Bowser is amazing, K. Rool is not nearly as good.
i gave this a good read, didn’t mention a single thing I dont already know about bowser Or krool. I just didn’t feel like going into such detail but kudos to you for taking the time.

every advantage you listed for bowser are all great but pale in comparison to krools arsenal. And try fighting a spammy krool on a typical three platform battlefield map, Dair won’t save you here. You will be spammed to death. Thats not to say that just because krool decimates bowser 1v1 that bowser is automatically worse than him.

im a relatively novice krool but i still usually thrash bowsers, even pro level ones, its just far easier for me to set up and spam than it is for them to get up close and do some damage.

I believe krool is better overall because the tools in his arsenal are way more adverse and versatile than anything bowser has to offer. And although bowser is “ok” at edge guarding krool is one of the gods of spiking and can suck u off stage for a free stock if you aren’t careful. Difference between that and bowsercide is well, KROOL doesn’t have to die.

Try fighting half competent samus, ness, lucas (try to recover vs pk freeze) simon/richer and many more projectile spammers as bowser. Then try with krool, see who has the easier time. With nearly 500 hours played, half probably all bowser and maybe like 10 krool... i still have an easier time with krool.

so why do i pick bowser? Hes an honorable choice. Hes not a wolf in sheeps clothing, no fancy tricks, no cheap tactics besides bowsercide is available for exploiting even then you have to kill yourself to do it. He is plain and simply a wolf. You see him coming. And there is some honor on playing a character like him. And excelling with him.

but please lets not pretend hes one of the best, there are better options he is B tier at the end of the day. And just barely B tier.
 
Last edited:

Janx_uwu

Smash Champion
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Messages
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i gave this a good read, didn’t mention a single thing I dont already know about bowser Or krool. I just didn’t feel like going into such detail but kudos to you for taking the time.
Thank you very much.
every advantage you listed for bowser are all great but pale in comparison to krools arsenal.
I'm not saying King K. Rool doesn't have some great attributes, but they are weighed down by his telegraphed moves, big size, slow movement and aerial speed, and having a worse than average juggling game. In the right hands, he can really mess someone up, I think Tweek was doing well with him last December or something. But anyone can be deadly when put in the right hands, so that's irrelevant. Different things can matter in a tier list (MU's, weighted MU's, theorycrafting, results) and I'd rather not base one off of pure results.
And try fighting a spammy krool on a typical three platform battlefield map, Dair won’t save you here. You will be spammed to death
King K. Rool loses to Bowser, probably +1.5 or 2 for Bowser. If you don't believe me, take a look at most high and top level Bowser MU charts. Even many K. Rool high players (who often aren't the sharpest when it comes to MU charts) agree Bowser wins.
Thats not to say that just because krool decimates bowser 1v1 that bowser is automatically worse than him.
Wasn't the whole point of this conversation being you saying K. Rool was better than Bowser?
im a relatively novice krool but i still usually thrash bowsers, even pro level ones
Unless you can show me footage of you beating Mew2King or some other Bowser on or above his level, I smell cap.
its just far easier for me to set up and spam than it is for them to get up close and do some damage.
You literally just stated yourself one of the reasons K. Rool is a low tier.
I believe krool is better overall because the tools in his arsenal are way more adverse and versatile than anything bowser has to offer
Okay, let's consider this for a moment. Bowser has:
-frame 6 command grab, one of the best in the game
-unreactable shield break move
-Easy, fast, brutal combos
-One of the best ledgetrapping games of the cast
-Heaviest in the game, easily lives over 150 most times
-Fast ground speed (air speed is better than Rool's, at least)
-Insane damage and knockback on every single move
-Amazing throws, all of them are good
-Tilts and smashes all kill, set up for more moves sometimes, have armor that can bypass certain moves, are fast, etc.
-Aerials that are strong, fast and set up for more moves
-Fire breath does 40% on average when close up
-Tough guy gives you a get out of jail free card at the beginning of every stock
K. Rool has:
-Belly armor (shields 18 %)
-Throws that are great
-Two projectiles, crown is great, blunderbuss is okay
-Tilts and smashes are good, fsmash though is pretty useless when ftilt and dsmash exist
-Good aerials
-Decent combos
-Second heaviest in the game
-Knockback and damage is good
-Bury moves (only kill at 120 or higher on most competent mashers)
Like I said, K Rool has some great stuff which is weighed down by his slow movement speed and bad recovery, not to mention very telegraphed moves and bad MU spread. Even when comparing nothing but their overall kits, Bowser just decimates him in comparison.
And although bowser is “ok” at edge guarding
He's pretty brilliant at edge guarding. Neutral B alone invalidates nearly every recovery in the game.
krool is one of the gods of spiking
Yeah, he sure is. Probably one of his best attributes.
Difference between that and bowsercide is well, KROOL doesn’t have to die.
When did I ever say bowsercide is his only option? Side b can even be used offstage to bring your opponent back to the stage. But that's irrelevent, you might as well use your other tools. Even dair and downb, suicide moves offstage, can be used at ledge to hard punish ledge jump with a spike. Not saying Bowser's is better-it's not-but it's far from "ok".
Ness is not a projectile character lmao. He has two projectiles which can be deadly to him if he uses them too much. (No, PK Flash is not a move). He's a combo character if anything (correct me if I'm wrong Ness mains out there).
(try to recover vs pk freeze)
Overrated move. After you die to it many times as a beginner, it's super easy to deal with. Fastfall or airdodge.
Try fighting half competent samus, ness, lucas (try to recover vs pk freeze) simon/richer and many more projectile spammers as bowser.
What's funny is that every matchup listed here is either even or slightly in the opponent's favor.
Then try with krool, see who has the easier time
Definitely Bowser, he's faster and just a better character overall. K. Rool does have projectiles and counter, but how far does that get you when your character is just not great?
With nearly 500 hours played, half probably all bowser and maybe like 10 krool... i still have an easier time with krool.
Because King K Rool favors newer players and gives them lots of tools to work with that excel at beating those at a novice level. I have 1.2 thousand hours logged, I would guess 250 or close to 300 Bowser hours, and 100 Rool hours (he was my main for the longest time). Not trying to say you're newer to the game-500 hours is impressive-but you say you've only played Rool for ten hours. So of course you would have an easier time with him if all you're doing is hopping on Elite Smash (which is no doubt the worst way to gauge how good a character is).
but please lets not pretend hes one of the best, there are better options he is B tier at the end of the day. And just barely B tier.
Bowser is a high tier, and most top and high level players agree with me there. Here's just a few lists with Bowser.
Bowser makes B tier in M2K's tier list (where B tier is high tier)
1601207189935.png

MK Leo's list (best player in the world) agrees Bowser is high tier (his list is above).
Maister also agrees with this fact (after Banjo update).
1601207556080.png

Ranked by Marss, pictured above, as A tier.
Finally, there's this article that takes tournament results and sees who consistently does the best. Here it ihttps://www.inverse.com/gaming/smash-ultimate-tier-list-8-min-min-nintendos.
As you can see, Bowser places at 6.79, very good. Meanwhile, King K. Rool rests at 2.91, the third worst here.
If you still don't believe me after all this evidence, then let me know and we'll go for a best of 5, my Bowser vs whoever you so choose.
 

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Wigglerman

Smash Ace
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Aug 6, 2019
Messages
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I feel some placements are a bit weird. I feel the DDD, K. Rool, Incin and DK placements should be switched.

I feel, even as an Incin main that Dk is the better character. Better speed, better KO opportunities, great combos, armor frames and far better recovery. He's the all around better of the lot.

Incin is fine where he is.

DDD though isn't the worst heavy but I don't feel he nets a higher placement than this. I feel even plant is better but that's just me. DDD is very chunky, isn't super safe on much and can't play air games all that much even with multi jumps due to his size and sluggish air attacks. His gordo will often prove detrimental to himself. His KO options are all insanely slow and relies on poorly timed parries from opponents with his dash attack. He's a lot better than he seems online where he can get away with a lot of jank but I struggle to see him EVER gain much traction.

In all I can't say I'd agree DDD places higher than K. Rool.

My competitive outlook on these characters would be something like:

So the placement IMO would be:

1.) Bowser
2.) Samus
3.) Charizard
4.) Donkey Kong
5.) K. Rool (Could likely be contested by Incineroar but in general has better tools/armor and projectiles)
6.) Incineroar
7.) DDD
8.) Plant (Switching this as I feel plant is also way better than B. Jr. I also feel could take DDD's spot, in fairness)
9.) Bowser Jr.
10.) Ganondorf
 

link2702

Smash Champion
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May 10, 2008
Messages
2,778
ganondorf is pretty much where I'd expect him. He can't do much vs the vast majority of the cast. A competent player is far less likely to fall for any baits a ganondorf might try, nor will they really get hard read by him. And many characters can just straight up rush him down, or camp him out, and he's practically helpless as he's combo bait and too slow to reliably get in.

Out of all the heaviest he's the one that most needs a serious rework.
 

Wigglerman

Smash Ace
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Aug 6, 2019
Messages
786
Location
Maine
ganondorf is pretty much where I'd expect him. He can't do much vs the vast majority of the cast. A competent player is far less likely to fall for any baits a ganondorf might try, nor will they really get hard read by him. And many characters can just straight up rush him down, or camp him out, and he's practically helpless as he's combo bait and too slow to reliably get in.

Out of all the heaviest he's the one that most needs a serious rework.
Agreed. It sucks because, on one hand, his play style is no so ingrained in Smash as the "Super heavy Captain Falcon" and they did some nice changes in at least giving him new Smash attacks. But he really needs a total overhaul.

I seriously wish they would have just made Hyrule Warriors Ganon for this game. Entirely 'new character' with a 100% new move set in the way of a really cool 'dual sword' user instead of just pasting a sword onto three moves but being unchanged otherwise. :(
 

link2702

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
2,778
Agreed. It sucks because, on one hand, his play style is no so ingrained in Smash as the "Super heavy Captain Falcon" and they did some nice changes in at least giving him new Smash attacks. But he really needs a total overhaul.

I seriously wish they would have just made Hyrule Warriors Ganon for this game. Entirely 'new character' with a 100% new move set in the way of a really cool 'dual sword' user instead of just pasting a sword onto three moves but being unchanged otherwise. :(
While I wouldn't mind him being a dual sword user similar to HW, I feel like he should get his trident. I mean sure the trident is "technically" his other form's preferred weapon, Ganon, but to me it'd make perfect sense to have him have it in smash. Have that and a mix of magic moves similar to the mage ganondorf build of project m, and he'd be perfect. And most importantly, he'd actually feel far more true to his character, and not just "slower harder hitting falcon."

Sakurai was just straight up lazy with ganondorf. His excuse for keeping him as slower falcon, is just that, an excuse. Most folks i've talked to, even many casual players who don't give a **** about a character's "viability" would rather have ganondorf 100% decloned and have more moves based on The actual character.
 

Tiko

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 6, 2020
Messages
13
Ive been testing it alittle more and i can see how MAYBE krool is just slightly behind bowser depending who you’re facing. But samus??? Really? My mind is boggled how anyone thinks bowser is better than samus thats where i have to draw the line. And there is no changing my mind on this.
 

Wigglerman

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 6, 2019
Messages
786
Location
Maine
Ive been testing it alittle more and i can see how MAYBE krool is just slightly behind bowser depending who you’re facing. But samus??? Really? My mind is boggled how anyone thinks bowser is better than samus thats where i have to draw the line. And there is no changing my mind on this.
Because Samus, while a much stronger character than she has been in prior installments still suffers from being fairly slow, not having huge combo options and relying too much on hard reads for charge shot. Bowser is fast, bowser is insanely heavy, bowser has combos, bowser has borderline brain dead edgeguard, has actual ways to get back to the ground, has almost absurd air speed for a heavy and can kill with almost every move in his kit.

Samus has to be played with insane levels of optimization to keep enemies away from her so she can abuse her projectile game, lacks any super good oos option (screw attack is alright but it's not bowser's flying fortress, that's for sure and his doesn't put him ata really awkward spot in the air to get juggled when using it on the ground and can move to to to minimize strong punishes if he whiffs/times it wrong and hits shield/mix up where he is on stage). She lacks burst options or super consistent kill confirms unlike Bowser.

If we're talking skilled players, high level of play here? Bowser.

Sure, samus dominates casual or quick play but that's true for any zoner against lesser skill level players.
 

Tiko

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 6, 2020
Messages
13
Because Samus, while a much stronger character than she has been in prior installments still suffers from being fairly slow, not having huge combo options and relying too much on hard reads for charge shot. Bowser is fast, bowser is insanely heavy, bowser has combos, bowser has borderline brain dead edgeguard, has actual ways to get back to the ground, has almost absurd air speed for a heavy and can kill with almost every move in his kit.

Samus has to be played with insane levels of optimization to keep enemies away from her so she can abuse her projectile game, lacks any super good oos option (screw attack is alright but it's not bowser's flying fortress, that's for sure and his doesn't put him ata really awkward spot in the air to get juggled when using it on the ground and can move to to to minimize strong punishes if he whiffs/times it wrong and hits shield/mix up where he is on stage). She lacks burst options or super consistent kill confirms unlike Bowser.

If we're talking skilled players, high level of play here? Bowser.

Sure, samus dominates casual or quick play but that's true for any zoner against lesser skill level players.
wait samus has no combo game? Ive been ridiculously combo’d by samus in the past. Hit by a rocket, combo into her up air, another upair, snd then up B. And if im high enough boom im off the map. Her back air can combo into a second back air or a spike. Her on stage spike combos into the up air combo i just shared. she has options for combos whats bowsers combos? Up throw into nair or up air (if you’re insanely fast) nair into back air confirm ok thats decent, very hard to pull off in quickplay or arenas. But thats about it.

shes slowish, but doesnt need speed when she has the arsenal she has. And her fair always gets priority over bowsers fair. Hers is disjointed i believe. So bowser really cant even compete with her in the air. People give bowser way to much credit. Again hes good but there are WAY better options and samus is one of those options.
 
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Janx_uwu

Smash Champion
Writing Team
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wait samus has no combo game?
All characters have a combo game of some sort, Samus' is just not very good.
Ive been ridiculously combo’d by samus in the past.
Your personal experiences on Elite/Quickplay do not determine how good a character is.
Hit by a rocket, combo into her up air, another upair, snd then up B. And if im high enough boom im off the map. Her back air can combo into a second back air or a spike. Her on stage spike combos into the up air combo i just shared. she has options for combo
It's there but it can be very inconsistent at times, she doesn't have very many reliable kill confirms either.
whats bowsers combos? Up throw into nair or up air (if you’re insanely fast)
It's easy to pull off when you know how. Buffer the first jump during the uthrow animation, then jump again after the throw (read their DI to know which move to do and where to do it) and punish accordingly. Works until 60% on most characters, I've seen it done higher before even (that's of course with a forward air rather than the other two). Instant 0% to 40% true combo that's simple and easy.
nair into back air confirm ok thats decent, very hard to pull off in quickplay or arenas. But thats about it.
My friend, that is far from it.
Forward air leads into quite a few of the scary turtle man's ground moves and can set up for techchase situations (in which case Bowser can do jab -> dsmash to jab lock). Fair leads into itself also and even aerial side b.
Nair is an amazing combo tool, it has multiple kill confirms and one of which (the one you mentioned) kills at 70 or below on the vast majority of the cast and is very easy to hit when you know how. Nair leads into just about any aerial move and even ftilt at many percents.
But I'll let this video from Frenzy Light do the talking. Some of the later combos are dependent on DI, but all of the beginner ones work at most percents with any DI.
shes slowish, but doesnt need speed when she has the arsenal she has
Speed is a vital attribute for a character to have, which is not Samus' strong suit.
And her fair always gets priority over bowsers fair
We're talking about who's better, not matchups. Bowser's fair is immensly better btw. It's faster, stronger, leads into more stuff. Range is good but not the only determining factor in a move.
So bowser really cant even compete with her in the air
Laughs in neutral air, fair, and bair. This point is a little more debatable, but Bowser's aerials are faster or just as fast(excluding nair). They are also better for combos, there's more of them and they are easier to pull off.
People give bowser way to much credit
LeoN sits at a comfortable 28 on the Panda Global Rankings (fifty best players in the world) with his spirit animal Bowser. Meanwhile there's not a single Samus player on there, not even a secondary from what I can tell. Not to say PGR is the only way to rank a character, just saying Bowser deserves the credit he gets, he is the best heavy and a middle-of-high tier character.
Again hes good but there are WAY better options
This is correct, Bowser is not a top tier. If all I wanted to do was win I would just play Pikachu.
samus is one of those options.
No, Samus is not as good as Bowser as I have said in this post. She is far from bad but also not as good as Bowser. Again Samus is a fine choice for your main, but when comparing the two the koopa king is definitely the better character.
 

StrangeKitten

Smash Lord
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Mar 25, 2020
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Battle Royal Dome
My takes, as someone who has played every character on the list bar Samus:
1) :ultcharizard:I mean, are we just ranking Zard and ignoring that :ultsquirtle: and :ultivysaur: exist? They're the best if we take all three together. Squirtle puts on early % very easily, Ivy adds more % through good disjoints and a solid projectile, then either Ivy or Zard secure the KO. :ultcharizard:is key to getting the most out of PT, though. Fast for a heavy, lives to absurd percents with one of the best recoveries for a heavy, cheats stocks with absurdly strong Flare Blitzes and F-Smashes, provided you are good at reads. Together, they are one of the best characters in the entire game, with one of the best matchup spreads.

2) :ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus: Samus is annoyingly good. The mix of floaty and heavy means they're great at running away, even retreating all the way to ledge with ease where a lot of other characters wouldn't be able to. I don't know where the supposed lack of combos comes from - they have one of their throws (I think down throw) to up smash at low %, down throw to forward air at mid %, plenty of follow ups from Charge Shot at low and mid %, up air juggles, and probably more. Their tether grab is one of the most frustrating grabs to deal with in the entire game, turning approaching them into a 50/50. Their bair either has armor or just tons of priority, and kills stupid early. Charge Shot is a commitment-less kill that is difficult to avoid for most characters. Up B oos isn't the best oos but it's serviceable enough, and has kill potential. If none of that secures the stock, up throw will. Their weight of 109 and plethora of recovery options/mixups means they're guaranteed to live an annoyingly long time, too.

3) :ultbowser:Very fast for a heavy, excellent combos and followups, Flame Breath puts on % for free and is an optimal ledgetrapping tool when your opponent isn't at a high enough % to aim for the KO with forward or down tilt (or if you're certain characters such as Belmonts, Ness if using PK Thunder, Little Mac, Ganondorf, probably a few others, the windbox from Flame Breath will KO earlier than most anything else). Up B oos might be the best oos in the game thanks to its ability to handle crossups. Has probably the best getup attack with a massive range, a forward air with an equally stupid range, and a great jab that can lead to jablock setups. Another situationally great thing is Bowser Bomb, with its ability to spike at ledge if spaced right, and shield breaks that gel perfectly with one of the strongest f-smashes in the game. There's also Flying Slam, a command grab quick enough to be used oos in some scenarios, that is an excellent kill move and can cheese by dragging opponents offstage if you're up a stock. Weight value of 135 means you're surviving until absurd percents.

4) :ultpiranha: Yep, you're reading that right, I think Plant is the next best! Not a great character by any means, but criminally underrated. May not have many combos (though it does have down throw to fair and up air to Ptooie at low %) but that doesn't matter when you're dishing out a lot of % with a single Poison Breath or a few Ptooies. Possesses some of the best ledgetrapping tools in the game, with an armored dash attack and a gentleman jab that get opponents to the ledge pretty easily. Recovery is one of the best among heavies, with all of Plant's other special moves allowing for stalling/anti-edgeguarding. Ptooie is one of few moves that can snipe recoveries without the need for Plant to risk going offstage, a huge boon. Has great up and forward smashes that kill very early, and while bair leaves a bit to be desired in terms of range, it also kills absurdly early.

5):ultdk:A very polarizing character. Excellent speed and range, nutty combos and setups... but his disadvantage is just so awful, from recovery to landing to oos to lacking a means of dealing with projectiles. He also has some moves that are unsafe on hit (!) at low %. I find his poor recovery especially lamentable, because he has the most spiking moves of any character, in addition to a pretty good nair and one of the best bairs. He could be one of the best edgeguarders, and I think it would be pretty fair to allow him to be one, considering his glaring weaknesses in other areas, but he simply cannot afford to go even slightly deep because of how little verticality he gets from aerial Spinning Kong. His flaws make me tempted to put him lower, but I think his great speed, range, and grab game that includes combos and kill throws, still give him the edge despite everything.

6) :ultincineroar: That slowness. That recovery, that while better than most heavies, still leaves a lot to be desired. Those are the things keeping this absolute unit from excellence, and are a big enough Achilles's Heel that I unfortunately must rank him this low. His oos is great between nair, neutral B, up B, and up smash. His combo game is the best of any heavy, with loads of follow ups from down throw and down tilt well into mid %. Hell, he can down tilt -> grab -> down throw -> fair at 0 on some characters. Revenge helps him deal with projectiles and is absolute murder if used well. His disadvantage is among the better ones thanks to nair, neutral B, and Revenge. Side B is a solid command grab that kills early. Three (!) kill throws. His down tilt is also one of the best down tilts for 2-framing, and leads to kill confirms with down tilt -> ftilt or down tilt -> forward air, depending on how your opponent DIs. He even has down throw -> up B at ledge to cheese stocks at 0 (though, this only really works at 0). It's a shame that a character with this much sauce is held back by such poor speed stats.

7) :ultkrool:He's unfortunately just a bit too slow, with a fairly rough disadvantage and not-so-great oos. And his recovery, while good in terms of distance, travels too slowly and has so much lag that he's forced into recovering low, severely limiting his mixup potential and leaving him wide open to certain projectiles, as well as bairs from the side. However, it's not all doom and gloom. His armor went from a liability to a useful asset thanks to the buff it got. He's got a solid combo game in forward throw to dash attack, landing nair into imagination, and Krown to Blunderbuss Kannonball. His projectiles, while not the best (and he must use Krown judiciously, as it can be used against him to good effect) are still solid. He has excellent kill power, including down throw kill confirms. His nair is also one of the best edgeguarding tools thanks to the armor. For what it's worth, he can survive as long as Bowser, since his weight value isn't light enough from Bowser's to make a difference. It's just a shame that it can mean a lot less for K Rool if he finds himself in a situation where his slow recovery is intercepted again and again.

8) :ultbowserjr: Yeah, I'm not much of a believer in this little guy. He's not outright terrible, and up air chains are potent at low %. The issue is that he's quite lacking outside of that, with an awkward neutral that fails to be that effective. It's a shame that Mechakoopa and the cannonball are such poor projectiles, as he could be quite a good character if they weren't so easy to deal with. He does have good disjoints that will beat out a lot of moves, and one of the best f-smashes in the game. His jab killing is also a pretty big boon. His up B leaving him so vulnerable if he finds himself in a situation where he must use it suboptimally is a big weakness he honestly doesn't need. Hope they give this guy some love in upcoming patches.

9) :ultkingdedede: They finally fixed his lack of kill power and made down tilt a lot better! ...And he's still not very good. He has a poor neutral and disadvantage state, including a lack of oos options. If Gordos couldn't be sent back to him by any move, it might be a different story, but as he is, he's simply too slow and lacking in good burst options to be all that good. He's the only character in the entire game who can jab my shield and I have enough time to drop shield and forward smash! And I exclusively play offline, so it's not lag allowing me to do that. One good thing Dedede has, though, is that his multiple jumps and far-distance up B ensure that he will live a long time. Which is more than I can say for...

10) :ultganondorf: He has a lot of strong things going for him, such as decent low % combos and excellent kill power, but man, is this poor character riddled with problems. He's flat-out missing hitboxes on some moves, Wizard's Foot loses to everything, he's got no means of dealing with projectiles or even careful play by fast characters (he'll get like two hits on me if I'm facing him as Sonic, for example), and the worst recovery in the entire game (yes, worse than Little Mac. Mac is at least tricky to edgeguard sometimes because his side B has a strong hitbox. Ganondorf doesn't even have that). Bafflingly, he lacks a kill throw until absurdly late %. This poor character seriously needs fixes and buffs.
 
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