Heavy Brawl as the competitive standard? EDIT: Could a pro post his/her opinion?

[DRaGZ]

@The Great Gonzalez

If that was a speech, the entire room would have been in awkward silence because they would've all felt very sorry for you.

Don't lecture me on Street Fighter, which is SF btw, not ST. (unless you're using me some kind of acronym I'm not familiar with, in which case I apologize) Street Fighter and Smash Bros. aren't very comparable games to begin with.

You also sound like you really hate smashers in general, which makes me wonder why you're here to begin with.

Also, you can't really play mindgames with that kind of spamfest shown in that video that I posted. Did you actually watch? Where were the mindgames there beyond deciding which projectile would stop which approach?

And I'm not trying to get rid of projectile camping either. I'm just trying to make sure that it's not the dominating strategy in Brawl, because that would be a shame.

 

[Papapaint]

see this is the problem with a lot of samshers, they've never played ST
its called the fireball the reason people spam projecvtiles is because it creates an obstecle your opponent has to get thru before he can even think about figthing you. Dont you people get its like figthing againts O.Sagat in super turbo, he has the best fireball in the game and he uses that fireball to control space and by extension his opponent. That doest mean he's invicible it jsut means his ooponet has to figure out a way around his fireball or he loses. Then the O.Sagat player knows this and figures out a way to make it look like his fireball game is impenetreble

Look at this macth of the best O.Sagat in America vs. one of the best Guile's in Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R0sgOaJvMU

I dare anyone to tell me that this is just a spamfest of projectiles because its a lot more than that. Choi has to keep Guile out because Guile has better normals taht Sagat
so he uses the fireball to control space. Guile can try to jump them but Sagat also has an anti-air he can use to stop him. So the Guilel player has to use whats called a phsyic jump to gett it, wich is very risky but pay's off. Thats just one of the thingsd goin thru the minds of these players there's probally like 20 diffent things that each players is taking into account. Using different tactics,fakes, set ups as well as using their normals effectavly both players are using real mindgames to get the win. There not running around trwoing **** cause teh can l-cancel it

Waht we need to do is stop being little children and learn to play real mindgames
Brawl has given us a chance to learn to use projectiles effectivley to control space something wich melee did not have. So lets stop trying to turn this game into the debacle that was competitive melee.
"Gee im a Fox player let me run around nair l-cancel into shine"
"Hey im the other Fox player im gonna run around and dair l-cancel to shine"
"Hehe we have mindgames"
give me a ****ing break how bout we start learnign some real mindgames


BTW i dont give a **** if little smashers flame my ****ing post, you either take this advice like a man, or cry about it like a little *****

The problem is that it's way, way, way more than projectiles. In fact, it has nothing to do with projectiles, and everything to do with camping. The aggressor in brawl is almost always at a disadvantage--the shielding system is overpowered, and the reward for getting through it is minimal.

EDIT: Also, playing as Old Sagat is pretty much universally agreed upon as lame as sh*t, because he's so powerful with just a mindless spamming game.

 

[Vet]

stuff

In all curiosity, why are you on a smash based website then? I understand the points behind your post as I myself play Street Fighters, I am just curious as to why you put these points forth?

The thing about how Brawl is setup is that the projectile game, if used correctly can create space, but at the same time if a character with a good projectile (ROB) is playing a character without a projectile (Wario) ROB has already won the match as he can create the space he needs between himself and Wario with his laser. If Mario even manages to get around the laser and get in close he would have to do so from the air where he has most of his options. By moving in close enough to attack Wario runs into a very common problem in this game. You cannot safely attack anyone from the air if they are playing defense as they just need to block the attack and sheild grab, therefore giving them the advantage again.

Brawl, compared to SF does not have very many good options to move in on a spammy projectile game by a ROB player that has mastered it due to the game's slow overall movement and in ability to beat basic sheild camping from the air (where most of the options come from).

I do not mean any disrespect to you as I do understand and appreciate your comments (and I watched and understood the match as I have been in those types of situations) but I am just inquiring as to why you are speaking about Brawl when in my opinion you have not experienced a situation such as that. I challenge you to find one of these situations and find a way through that creates and advantage for yourself and stops the spamming of the projectiles. If you can find a reliable way to do this against a player that knows how to spam like in the video you quoted. I will sing your praises.

 

[IShotLazer]

great gonzales get out of here you scrub I cover you in my blanket statement!
But really, don't be ignorant. You really think the pros of melee are stupid don't you? You really think you have this amazing intelligence that no-one eles has? Don't even talk about mindgames like that. Ever heard of Drephen? Pretty much all he ever did was space and Smash Down with sheik. Mind games were crazy. Do you know his rank?
I'll tell you right now he is better than you, and by your post and ignorance to the game I could beat ya too.

 

[DRaGZ]

Another thing I just found:

FOOTSTOOL JUMPS KILL IN HEAVY BRAWL.

Oh my God. A new technique Sakurai put in is now actually useful.

 

[Papapaint]

Another thing I just found:

FOOTSTOOL JUMPS KILL IN HEAVY BRAWL.

Oh my God. A new technique Sakurai put in is now actually useful.

Actually, almost all of the new techniques are more useful in Heavy Brawl, including multiple air dodges. They also have bigger downsides when they fail, making them more like "techniques" instead of "stuff you can mindlessly spam"!

 

[DRaGZ]

Actually, almost all of the new techniques are more useful in Heavy Brawl, including multiple air dodges. They also have bigger downsides when they fail, making them more like "techniques" instead of "stuff you can mindlessly spam"!

Awesome!

Excellent!

*does the Bill and Ted guitar thing*

But seriously, yes, it does take a lot better timing to do proper air dodging.

 

[Nakamaru]

The only reason im not looking forward to heavy brawl as tournament standard is because i fear it may make a more defined tier list.

Im all for the removal of camping being the strategy of choice, but idk. I see more harm then good coming from this.

I'll probably stay out of this argument until more facts about each surface, but i think we should give normal brawl more of a chance considering, yes im being redundant, it is new. Things are slowly surfacing to make approaches just a little more affective. Like the Wavesmash, boost smash, whatever you want to call it.

But anyway i can't see this as being a welcome change.

 

[KernelColonel]

Oh my god. This thread is just DRaGZ and almightypanacke mutually masturbating.

Do you guys really have that much trouble with campers? It is easy to avoid if you're, uh, good at the game.

On a personal basis, I don't want to condone Heavy Brawl as the standard for competetive nature because the designers put all of their efforts into creating the normal Brawl mod and it would be a heaping shame to disregard it for competetive play.

 

[okor]

Maybe if we shun campers and beat them in the town square people would be too ashamed to camp as a competitive strategy.

>.>

 

[Papapaint]

Oh my god. This thread is just DRaGZ and almightypanacke mutually masturbating.

Do you guys really have that much trouble with campers? It is easy to avoid if you're, uh, good at the game.

On a personal basis, I don't want to condone Heavy Brawl as the standard for competetive nature because the designers put all of their efforts into creating the normal Brawl mod and it would be a heaping shame to disregard it for competetive play.

Right, I forgot that there's a magical way to avoid the silly power of shields.

I do not have a significant amount of trouble with campers; primarily because I main Wario, who does well vs. campers. However, a metagame divided into campers and anti-campers is a shallow metagame indeed. I'm plenty good at the game--gone head to head with most of the top players on wifi wars and did well enough--and the game is shallow and lacking.

The "designer" of smash made the normal Brawl mod in such a way to completely and utterly destroy the possibility of competition. Simply playing to win goes against the game.

 

[GenericKen]

Two questions for opposite sides of the debate:

1) How sure are we that higher levels of play in standard brawl are more campy and boring?

In the most pointed video posted, snake and ROB spammed projectiles at each other because snake was unable to make a successful approach. But the problem with snake's approach wasn't that ROB had too many defensive options. The problem was that even if Snake pushed ROB off the stage, ROB would just recover around snake with his absurd recovery.
The problem is that some recoveries are just too absurdly good and it makes edgeguarding too difficult. If the only kills you get are going to be from pure damage, why not spam projectiles?

So the question is: is camping really that prevailant in all the top tier matchups? Not all top tier characters have projectilves or obscene recoveries. Could we just conceede that some of the 46*(46+1)/2 possible matchups are going to be boring, or is this too prevalent?


2) Exactly what would the problem be with adopting Heavy Brawl?

Like others, I shared a subliminal distaste for the idea of actually using one of the optional game modes, as they've traditionally been stupid joke-modes. But abstractly, if the game does play better with it, is it actually all that different from turning items off or switching the mode to stock?

It still feels like it would be odd changing the game mode for the sake of making it less boring, as opposed to turning off items to reduce randomization in a tournament setting, and switching from timed to stock to avoid sudden death and reduce scoring system abuse.

How natural/appropriate does the custom mode feel? Were there videos linked earlier in this thread (I may have missed them)? I'll check it out this weekend.

 

[FerretStyle]

Another thing I just found:

FOOTSTOOL JUMPS KILL IN HEAVY BRAWL.

Oh my God. A new technique Sakurai put in is now actually useful.

Yeah, footstool jumps almost always kill Bowser and DK as it is. And they are easy to do it to.

Just what we need, more useless bottom tier heavyweights.

 

[Darkslash]

see this is the problem with a lot of samshers, they've never played ST
its called the fireball the reason people spam projecvtiles is because it creates an obstecle your opponent has to get thru before he can even think about figthing you. Dont you people get its like figthing againts O.Sagat in super turbo, he has the best fireball in the game and he uses that fireball to control space and by extension his opponent. That doest mean he's invicible it jsut means his ooponet has to figure out a way around his fireball or he loses. Then the O.Sagat player knows this and figures out a way to make it look like his fireball game is impenetreble

Look at this macth of the best O.Sagat in America vs. one of the best Guile's in Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R0sgOaJvMU

I dare anyone to tell me that this is just a spamfest of projectiles because its a lot more than that. Choi has to keep Guile out because Guile has better normals taht Sagat
so he uses the fireball to control space. Guile can try to jump them but Sagat also has an anti-air he can use to stop him. So the Guilel player has to use whats called a phsyic jump to gett it, wich is very risky but pay's off. Thats just one of the thingsd goin thru the minds of these players there's probally like 20 diffent things that each players is taking into account. Using different tactics,fakes, set ups as well as using their normals effectavly both players are using real mindgames to get the win. There not running around trwoing **** cause teh can l-cancel it

Waht we need to do is stop being little children and learn to play real mindgames
Brawl has given us a chance to learn to use projectiles effectivley to control space something wich melee did not have. So lets stop trying to turn this game into the debacle that was competitive melee.
"Gee im a Fox player let me run around nair l-cancel into shine"
"Hey im the other Fox player im gonna run around and dair l-cancel to shine"
"Hehe we have mindgames"
give me a ****ing break how bout we start learnign some real mindgames


BTW i dont give a **** if little smashers flame my ****ing post, you either take this advice like a man, or cry about it like a little *****

*Akward Silence*







ANY HOW


I really don't like high Gravity. I really don't. Mostly becuase then i can't pull off my Wolf blaster combo........and no not spamming laser kinda one.

 

[PXG]

I think you should accept the fact that Brawl isn't Melee 2.0 and just adapt to the new game.

I hardly see why you are being flamed for this post. In one sentence, you speak a lot of truth. Seriously, its a new game, with new mechanics and new strategies. Brawl is competitive and deep as hell. If you disagree with that, either:

A) you haven't played the game long enough
B) you haven't played anyone good
C) you think having an opposing view point for the sake of having one is cool

Brawl, in its default form, is very balanced. Matches are determined (of course by skill) but also match ups and counters, as opposed to ones ability to cancel lag and move really fast. Making Heavy Brawl standard, would give heavy characters a huge disadvantage. The lower gravity helps (to some extent) automatically cancel lag, if the move is timed correctly. With higher gravity, this would be extremely difficult or impossible. In turn, in attempts to make the game more competitive, it would limit players to use faster characters.

Brawl is not Melee and never will be. Get over it. A lot of you assume that Brawl is a step back, but really, making Brawl more like Melee, isn't progression either. Oh no! Now you must rely on your OWN timing and spacing know how, instead of using L canceling and wave dashing to make up for that. I'm a competitive player, but seeing the same old top tier bull**** over and over again was lame. Balance is a good thing. Change and variety are good as well.....

 

[Papapaint]

1) How sure are we that higher levels of play in standard brawl are more campy and boring?.

A few points to note:

1. Camping does not require projectiles. In fact, GandW has one of the best camping moves in the game with his b-air.

2. Even if there are exciting matchups, they'll usually be between anti-campers and campers. This is a restricted, shallow metagame.

3. There will be occasional non-camping matches. That won't decrease the simple fact that defense overpowered.

 

[Darkslash]

I dunno why can't there be a new rule that the match will be null and void if people camp for more than 2 minutes?

 

[Papapaint]

I hardly see why you are being flamed for this post. In one sentence, you speak a lot of truth. Seriously, its a new game, with new mechanics and new strategies. Brawl is competitive and deep as hell. If you disagree with that, either:

A) you haven't played the game long enough
B) you haven't played anyone good
C) you think having an opposing view point for the sake of having one is cool

Brawl, in its default form, is very balanced. Matches are determined (of course by skill) but also match ups and counters, as opposed to ones ability to cancel lag and move really fast. Making Heavy Brawl standard, would give heavy characters a huge disadvantage. The lower gravity helps (to some extent) automatically cancel lag, if the move is timed correctly. With higher gravity, this would be extremely difficult or impossible. In turn, in attempts to make the game more competitive, it would limit players to use faster characters.

Brawl is not Melee and never will be. Get over it. A lot of you assume that Brawl is a step back, but really, making Brawl more like Melee, isn't progression either. Oh no! Now you must rely on your OWN timing and spacing know how, instead of using L canceling and wave dashing to make up for that. I'm a competitive player, but seeing the same old top tier bull**** over and over again was lame. Balance is a good thing. Change and variety are good as well.....

Balance isn't competitive. The most competitive game in the world in terms of depth, chess, starts out with a 20% likelihood of winning imbalance based solely on color.

Also, the points you try to make about the difference between the games are laughable, and have been addressed numerous times. Read around before you say things like that.

And Darkslash; bans must be easily enforcable. What you recommend is similar to a failed attempt to nix camping on some counterstrike servers-- some servers would kill you after camping for two minutes. As a result, people would camp for 1 minute 59 seconds, run out, shoot one person, then camp for another minute 59.

Banning tactics is tough and excessive.

 

[Dream Chaser]

Ive seen the issue of how "competitive" brawl is etc pop up here and there.
A couple of things...

Define competitive.
What does it mean for a game to be competitive and how is it measured?
Is this a qualitative analysis or a quantatative one?

If this is a qualitative measurement, then I respect you opinion.
If this is a quantitative measurement, then I'd like to know how you measure it.

 

[PXG]

]Balance isn't competitive.[/B] The most competitive game in the world in terms of depth, chess, starts out with a 20% likelihood of winning imbalance based solely on color.

Also, the points you try to make about the difference between the games are laughable, and have been addressed numerous times. Read around before you say things like that.

And Darkslash; bans must be easily enforcable. What you recommend is similar to a failed attempt to nix camping on some counterstrike servers-- some servers would kill you after camping for two minutes. As a result, people would camp for 1 minute 59 seconds, run out, shoot one person, then camp for another minute 59.

Banning tactics is tough and excessive.

So, if a character, stage or move is horribly over powered and game breaking, then how can you have a FAIR competition? Competition is supposed to be an objective process in order to prove one's skill. If it isn't balanced, than how can you even have competition? We ban items and stages in order to balance the game, so that only skill is the determining factor of who wins the match.

Brawls physics balance the game. It allows heavy and slower characters to coexist and compete with faster ones. There are other things as well (such as range, super armor, ect.) Eliminating such crucial part of the game, makes the game unbalanced and unfit for a fair competition. I hardly see how that is illogical or wrong.

 

[Tristan Fattest of All Kids]

That will work,

 

[Thino]

I didnt read the whole thread but if i understood correctly the issue with normal competitive brawl will be that it will evolve into a campfest cause defense>offense? (not having played brawl ,i dunno)

so why not apply the same rules against camping that were established in melee instead?

 

[Corigames]

Personally, I hate heavey Brawl while playing as Pit. Why? HE CAN'T RECOVER! His mid-air jumps just make him fall slower and his up B makes him drop very far and then gets up a little passed where it originally started.

No, I'm not agreeing to this.

 

[Tiwaz]

I was just fooling around in heavy Brawl a few minutes ago. Not much seemed too gimped, although I only played with about half the characters before I got bored. I'm up for a try at a Heavy Brawl tournament, just for a taste of it.

 

[smasher32]

Although I have not tried this out yet, I am definitely up for this idea.

I'll play it with some of my friends to produce better results.

 

[Ichida]

Can't be done online, where the vast VAST majority of tournaments will be happening. 'nuuuuff saaaaid.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

i don't like the idea. All the characters that have weak horizontal recovery will have less chance of winning

 

[KnightoftheShadows]

Well, in all honesty, I applaud you all who contributed to this thread and getting a new idea out. That is what this all is anyway, a new idea. It will be tested and used now that at least some people think its a good idea. Will it effect the whole entire competitive scene? I don't think so. Well, in a sense maybe. People who like it will use it, that much we know. If they can't find a tournament using that way, they may very well hold their own. People who don't like it will stick to their own way, and if they can't find one around them, they can hold their own. Why is anyone really complaining? They posted a new idea, and like almost anything, nothing changes unless the word gets out, and people listen. Are you being forced to play it any certain way? What do you have to lose if you just start holding your own tournaments with your own rules? What would really happen if competitive went to heavy? Would you suddenly lose all credibility here if you competed with normal settings? Don't think so, a win is still a win as long as your not cheating, and there will always be people that support your side of game play.

I swear, when I read these boards, sometimes I feel like anyone with a new idea just said the world is round, while all of you are still arguing its flat..

At the end of the day, those that want to play on heavy will, and those that want the normal settings will do that too. Arguing about it won't really change anything but change a couple peoples minds. To each their own, right?

 

[Ichida]

Well, in all honesty, I applaud you all who contributed to this thread and getting a new idea out. That is what this all is anyway, a new idea. It will be tested and used now that at least some people think its a good idea. Will it effect the whole entire competitive scene? I don't think so. Well, in a sense maybe. People who like it will use it, that much we know. If they can't find a tournament using that way, they may very well hold their own. People who don't like it will stick to their own way, and if they can't find one around them, they can hold their own. Why is anyone really complaining? They posted a new idea, and like almost anything, nothing changes unless the word gets out, and people listen. Are you being forced to play it any certain way? What do you have to lose if you just start holding your own tournaments with your own rules? What would really happen if competitive went to heavy? Would you suddenly lose all credibility here if you competed with normal settings? Don't think so, a win is still a win as long as your not cheating, and there will always be people that support your side of game play.

I swear, when I read these boards, sometimes I feel like anyone with a new idea just said the world is round, while all of you are still arguing its flat..

At the end of the day, those that want to play on heavy will, and those that want the normal settings will do that too. Arguing about it won't really change anything but change a couple peoples minds. To each their own, right?

Spoken like a true Nintendo corporate brushoff. XD

 

[Papapaint]

So, if a character, stage or move is horribly over powered and game breaking, then how can you have a FAIR competition? Competition is supposed to be an objective process in order to prove one's skill. If it isn't balanced, than how can you even have competition? We ban items and stages in order to balance the game, so that only skill is the determining factor of who wins the match.

Brawls physics balance the game. It allows heavy and slower characters to coexist and compete with faster ones. There are other things as well (such as range, super armor, ect.) Eliminating such crucial part of the game, makes the game unbalanced and unfit for a fair competition. I hardly see how that is illogical or wrong.

You're not changing any of that, simply the excessive floatiness. The physics engine doesn't change. The super armor doesn't change. Most of the bigger characters benefit even more from this.

 

[LoVer]

The game is fine and will be played competitively just as it is. If you don' like it, you won't be playing in any tournaments.

 

[Papapaint]

The game is fine and will be played competitively just as it is. If you don' like it, you won't be playing in any tournaments.

Imagine if this had been said at the beginning of melee's run. We'd still be playing with items, crappy stages, etc.

Competitive players aim to make the game as balanced and competitive as possible. Sometimes the original design doesn't allow for that.

 

[cobaltblue]

I read most of the posts in this thread, and I have yet to see anyone make a good reply on why the switch should be done considering it gimps the hell out of two characters (Sonic and Wario). While I know nothing on Wario, taking away sonic's one good b move so that the space animals can regain their power is pure BS.

Overall I think it would be best to try this on the side at a major torunament and see what people think. If tier brackets don't become meleeized after a few games, than go for it.

 

[Papapaint]

Also...

Keep in mind that Smash is not a competitive game... at least, no more than, say, pictionary is a competitive game. It's meant to be a shallow party game.

The only reason the game ever evolved beyond that was because the competitive players made changes to the game. We turned off items, we banned stages. We modified movement physics and applications. Without these, Smash would never have been anything but a party game, pure and simple.

What we're doing here is continuing that trend. We're trying to evolve the game. There is no sensible reason for us to sit back and say "Well, this is how the game is made, and despite there being the potential to change it, we need to accept it as it is." This is completely counter-intuitive to the whole mindset of the competitive scene.

If you don't agree, fine. You're not adding anything to the discussion by posting that, though.

 

[KnightoftheShadows]

Spoken like a true Nintendo corporate brushoff. XD

maybe. I just feel like a bunch of the fighting on these boards is a bit... pointless. Fighting an opinion is pretty much like catching smoke, and the only real way to make it work is to beat down their confidence until they don't believe it anymore which in this case is a little immoral. Nobody is forcing anyone to change, everything is just a constant battle of opinion.

I like brawl the way it is, but I'm not going to be upset if not everyone wants to play the same way I do.

 

[M.K]

I'm still against this Heavy Brawl idea. I think we just need to take more time and find ways to counteract floatiness and camping in the NORMAL game. To be honest, the people who are against Heavy Brawl (for the most part) have provided the best arguments.

 

[xS A M U R A Ix]

I've got a cool recommendation that might confuse some people because it uses a little known skill around here called common sense.

If you like Melee, then go play Melee.

There. I said it. There's no need to change the game's system because it's not something you like. Stuff is being discovered with Brawl almost every day and it hasn't even been a month. The game will keep evolving, you don't have to force it into something it's not using a special brawl option.

 

[M.K]

I've got a cool recommendation that might confuse some people because it uses a little known skill around here called common sense.

If you like Melee, then go play Melee.

There. I said it. There's no need to change the game's system because it's not something you like. Stuff is being discovered with Brawl almost every day and it hasn't even been a month. The game will keep evolving, you don't have to force it into something it's not using a special brawl option.

This man speaks the truth. Despite every argument you are giving, despite everything you've said, Heavy Brawl is just another way to manipulate Brawl into Melee. Brawl's competitive scene is only two MONTHS old TWO MONTHS compared to Melee's SEVEN YEARS. Give it time before we make such drastic changes like this.

 

[Papapaint]

This man speaks the truth. Despite every argument you are giving, despite everything you've said, Heavy Brawl is just another way to manipulate Brawl into Melee. Brawl's competitive scene is only two MONTHS old TWO MONTHS compared to Melee's SEVEN YEARS. Give it time before we make such drastic changes like this.

What baffles me is that somehow an OPTION BUILT INTO THE GAME has been decided as THE WRONG WAY TO PLAY.

 

[GreenKirby]

Heavy Brawl as the competitive standard? Inquire within to discuss (politely please!)

(politely please!)

(politely please!)

(politely please!)

Obviously, people don't know how to read anymore. lol