Heavy Brawl as the competitive standard? EDIT: Could a pro post his/her opinion?

[HyperTheHedgehog]

Man... after this, and seeing smashboards in general...

I've just lost my desire. I think I'm actually going to throw in the flag here, and call it quits on competitive smash for a while. Maybe I'll check back in a couple months and see how things are progressing.

Good luck to everyone, on all sides.

I'm actually thinking of doing this too. ^5

 

[DRaGZ]

Man... after this, and seeing smashboards in general...

I've just lost my desire. I think I'm actually going to throw in the flag here, and call it quits on competitive smash for a while. Maybe I'll check back in a couple months and see how things are progressing.

Good luck to everyone, on all sides.

Duuuuuude....noooooo...!

 

[JugaBro]

Duuuuuude....noooooo...!

Hey, Dragz, its partly my fault. I talked to Gimpy shortly about it, and he told me why it would not succeed as the competitive standard. Mabey as a test side tourney he says, just not the competitive standard. Because new players wont conform as easily, or want to join a tourney if its not the way they usualy play, which 99% of the time is the normal mode. Thats the only issue.

 

[controlfreak7]

Seriously whoever sides with normal brawl in here sides with camping, sides with sakurai, sides with no competitive play (and if you're not even a competitive player simply gtfo). Everyone that joined the boards within the last 2 months that has posted in here has sided with brawl (I really wonder why). Believe me when I say this and I am completely convinced that the better camper wins and I know and no1 likes campers NOT EVEN campers themselves.

That isn't even the point, the online brawl tournament that happened recently, the results came in as overswarm being the winner. And I think overswarm is devoted to proving the game is a camper's game.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kxgOkRyG3ho&feature=related

I mean this is the solid evidence I've been waiting for and to disregaurd it would be absolutely idiotic.

Seriously whoever joined March 2008 don't post in this thread again I beg you, your arguments are absolutely annoying and ridiculous.

This has to be the most frustrating thing ever. I really can't get satisfaction out of playing melee anymore because I've been waiting for this game for so long and now I see very little hope in this game at the least for now.

Gimpy is right about this being the competitive standard, but honestly I think we can make it work through a cycle. Players host a regular brawl tournament, people realize how ******** competitive play is they hear about heavy gravity tournaments, they try it out and see that despite some down sides it really does work in terms of competition. The main problem is lies in the people entering the community.

Really the only thing i can hope for is a competitive solution to brawl because I don't feel like i can enjoy melee much anymore (because of the fact brawl is out).

 

[Johnknight1]

Interesting theory, sucks that it can't be tested online.

You can say that again! I really need to test this out (offline). Boo to Nintendo not having Special Brawl online. Who would have guessed what is generally considered n00by could possibly become the competitve future of smash bros!

And almightypancake, I know, I have my doubts too, and smashboards is too busy waving the white (French; HAHA! THEY'RE FRENCH! ) flag on Brawl, but we gotta stick with it, man. The more people that give in, the more likely the smash community as a whole will divide, and all we've built will collapse. C'mon man, we really need you! What DRaGZ has going is good, and he needs all the support we can get. Or, we could always go here.

I definitely need to try this out. I've used this zero times, and I need to give it a go. Something tells me that this is probably the solution we've been looking for. Now all we need is that gameplay changing technique we're not looking for, but need, and will change smash history, forever.

IDK, people, just be open-minded with this stuff. New players, PLEASEEEE...we're trying to make this morel ike Melee. You know why? Because Brawl is the EXACT opposite of Melee. We want Brawl to be a bit more like Melee, but not Melee 2.0. We want Brawl to actually have combos that hook up, offensive gameplay be a focus, and not ALMOST EXLCUSIVE DEFENSIVE AND CAMPING GAMEPLAY! We're giving Brawl a touch of Melee to make it better. If we add a sprinkle of Melee (and general fighting game basis), we could possibly make this game we call Brawl all-around better.

Whinning about all that's wrong DOES NOTHING! Reaching or finding a solution does something. If you are not part of the solution, you are a part of the problem. And this is possibly the best and only solution out there, along with getting better as a community, and finding/learning more advanced techniques. We need to reach a solution, and this is definitely a solution. So AT LEAST give it a try. One try doesn't hurt. Don't be close-minded on these sorta stuff people, that's all I...no, we ask. Be open-minded on EVERYTHING!

 

[Demon Kirby]

Man... after this, and seeing smashboards in general...

I've just lost my desire. I think I'm actually going to throw in the flag here, and call it quits on competitive smash for a while. Maybe I'll check back in a couple months and see how things are progressing.

Good luck to everyone, on all sides.

I feel like doing the same.

Good day to you all . . . even though no one will miss me. .

Could a mod ban me for a few weeks so I can't do otherwise.

 

[Eternal Neo]

so are people pretty much giving up on brawl. i mean i can't imagine the standard brawl tournament scene will last too long with the campy playstyle, and since people are so unwilling to even try to use a mode that can be accessed from the menu just because it's harder for the new players to pick up, it looks like these boards are content just to let the the game die.

that's too bad. i was looking forward into getting into the competetive scene in the new smash game.

 

[theONEjanitor]

I think you should accept the fact that Brawl isn't Melee 2.0 and just adapt to the new game.

I think you should accept the fact that Brawl isn't Melee 2.0 and just adapt to the new game.

I think you should accept the fact that Brawl isn't Melee 2.0 and just adapt to the new game.

I think you should accept the fact that Brawl isn't Melee 2.0 and just adapt to the new game.

I think you should accept the fact that Brawl isn't Melee 2.0 and just adapt to the new game.

I think you should accept the fact that Brawl isn't Melee 2.0 and just adapt to the new game.

I think you should accept the fact that Brawl isn't Melee 2.0 and just adapt to the new game.

I think you should accept the fact that Brawl isn't Melee 2.0 and just adapt to the new game.

I think you should accept the fact that Brawl isn't Melee 2.0 and just adapt to the new game.

jesus christ

 

[Ampleforth]

jesus christ

No matter how many times you quote that, this has nothing to do with wanting Brawl to be Melee 2.0 and everything to do with the fact that Brawl cannot be competitive when the winner is the person who approaches the least.

 

[Eternal Neo]

I find the "it's brawl it isn't melee 2.0!" people so funny because there wasn't even a high gravity mode in melee. it's a brand new feature sakurai added to brawl presumably because he wants people to use it.

the only reason i see people arguing against trying this feature competitively is because special modes were not competitively viable in melee and they assume it has to be the same here. pretty ironic since, well you know.

 

[theONEjanitor]

No matter how many times you quote that, this has nothing to do with wanting Brawl to be Melee 2.0 and everything to do with the fact that Brawl cannot be competitive when the winner is the person who approaches the least.

the only reason that you can even CONCEIVE that heavyness makes the game better is because you liked in MELEE. if there was no Melee, this thread wouldn't exist. In fact people would think Brawl was the bees knees if melee didn't exist.
Its clear that you want Melee 2.0, there's really nothing to argue. stop bull ****ting, get over it. It's okay.
Brawl is already competitive. I've been to and been made aware of several perfectly fine tournaments already. again, stop bull****ting.
I don't know why i'm writing this, theres nothing to argue. I'll be back when you stop BSing with yourself and everyone else.

 

[theONEjanitor]

I find the "it's brawl it isn't melee 2.0!" people so funny because there wasn't even a high gravity mode in melee. it's a brand new feature sakurai added to brawl presumably because he wants people to use it.

the only reason i see people arguing against trying this feature competitively is because special modes were not competitively viable in melee and they assume it has to be the same here. pretty ironic since, well you know.

way to be presumptuous. A plus.

I don't give a **** about who wants to have heavy brawl tourneys.
But REPLACING the NORMAL game with heavy melee is some of the most arbitrary dumb**** i've ever heard of.

 

[Eternal Neo]

way to be presumptuous. A plus.

I don't give a **** about who wants to have heavy brawl tourneys.
But REPLACING the NORMAL game with heavy melee is some of the most arbitrary dumb**** i've ever heard of.

nobody wants to replace the normal game. the normal game will still be there and the vast majority of people will still play it because the vast majority of people don't play high level competitive smash. however, this mode may give an opportuity for the high level players who are disappointed with the competitive nature of the brawl engine to enjoy the game how they want to.

how is that a bad thing?

 

[rageagainst]

@theONEjanitor

way to be presumptuous. A plus.

I don't give a **** about who wants to have heavy brawl tourneys.
But REPLACING the NORMAL game with heavy melee is some of the most arbitrary dumb**** i've ever heard of.

don't be so arrogant, if heavy brawl helps the meta game in that it makes turtling and camping harder, then it is GOOD FOR THE GAME. Did you read the OP at all.

My only problem is that it will mess with char balance, which, after my long review, has been done nicely in normal brawl. Link, who is already an averageish-nothing-special-about-him character has a gimped UpB in heavy brawl, hmm mabye DI will affect it like it affects TL's Ub though... I need to test this.

People will find unstoppable comboes with characters, something sakurai painstakingly tried to avoid in normal brawl (any one remember falco's jump nerf in the patch because of his unstoppable laser?) if heavy brawl becomes the standard, we can welcome falco's unstoppable laser back and once again ban walled stages.

I don't know, mabye I'm afraid it will end up like melee with unstoppable comboes lurking around the corner destorying game balance, but I guess thats just the price we will have to pay to make the game more competitive (I hope, though, the community will be wise enough to ban disgustingly powerful comboes)

 

[Zeborg]

@theONEjanitor


don't be so arrogant, if heavy brawl helps the meta game in that it makes turtling and camping harder, then it is GOOD FOR THE GAME. Did you read the OP at all.

My only problem is that it will mess with char balance, which, after my long review, has been done nicely in normal brawl. Link, who is already an averageish-nothing-special-about-him character has a gimped UpB in heavy brawl, hmm mabye DI will affect it like it affects TL's Ub though... I need to test this.

People will find unstoppable comboes with characters, something sakurai painstakingly tried to avoid in normal brawl (any one remember falco's jump nerf in the patch because of his unstoppable laser?) if heavy brawl becomes the standard, we can welcome falco's unstoppable laser back and once again ban walled stages.

I don't know, mabye I'm afraid it will end up like melee with unstoppable comboes lurking around the corner destorying game balance, but I guess thats just the price we will have to pay to make the game more competitive (I hope, though, the community will be wise enough to ban disgustingly powerful comboes)

I believe that many fighters have 100 to 0 combos that were not tourney banned...including melee (see wobbling). There are only certain conditions underwhich combos are banned. To ban a combo, which sometimes has to be done, is generally viewed as unsavory, regardless of how cheap they may be perceived to be.

 

[Ampleforth]

the only reason that you can even CONCEIVE that heavyness makes the game better is because you liked in MELEE. if there was no Melee, this thread wouldn't exist. In fact people would think Brawl was the bees knees if melee didn't exist.
Its clear that you want Melee 2.0, there's really nothing to argue. stop bull ****ting, get over it. It's okay.
Brawl is already competitive. I've been to and been made aware of several perfectly fine tournaments already. again, stop bull****ting.
I don't know why i'm writing this, theres nothing to argue. I'll be back when you stop BSing with yourself and everyone else.

No, there are plenty of logical steps you can take to come to the conclusion that heavy would be better. Main problems with Brawl: defensive game is too strong, hard to approach, projectiles are too strong. How to alleviate some of these problems? Oh hey a Special Brawl mode that lowers floatiness and makes camping more difficult.

I'm sure there are people here who are just thinking "how can we make Brawl as much like Melee as possible," but we're not all like that. I don't want Melee 2.0. I like the new airdodging. The new sweetspotting for edges is fine by me, too. Frankly I prefer autocancelling to L-cancelling. I like the new powershielding system. There are tons of Brawl concepts I like. But hey, you think that wanting a less defensive gameplay is forcing Brawl into Melee 2.0, so I guess you're too hard-headed to try something different.

This thread is for people who want a competitive game that can be fun, and right now the most effective way to win is camping. Does this mean I want Brawl to become Melee 2.0? No, I want Brawl to become competitive without being irritating to play and boring to watch.

Seriously the argument of "stop trying to turn Brawl into Melee 2.0" died a long time ago and has no value here. If you're satisfied with Brawl the way it is, why are you even in this thread? No one's going to stop you from playing competitively with standard Brawl, and if you're a casual gamer, there's even less reason for you to reply here.

 

[Ciel~Image]

the only reason that you can even CONCEIVE that heavyness makes the game better is because you liked in MELEE. if there was no Melee, this thread wouldn't exist. In fact people would think Brawl was the bees knees if melee didn't exist.
Its clear that you want Melee 2.0, there's really nothing to argue. stop bull ****ting, get over it. It's okay.

That is some sweet logic, bro.

"If something better than X didn't exist people wouldn't expect more from X!"

Congratulations on figuring that out.

 

[wtZzz]

I agree with one of the replies. This isn't Melee 2.0. It is an entirely new game.

RIGHT NOW, camping is an issue. I think much of the frusturation comes from Melee pros not being as dominant in Brawl. New game, new physics, new characters, new players, new styles.

I'll agree that certain characters are a pain to play against, and rather boring. However, nothing feels better than destroying a pathetic player. Mind you, if I play a non-online tournament, and my opponent is playing like a twit, I'll make sure he knows what a woman he is, I'll be a foot away from him.

Online however, kids will hide behind the fact they can be cheap in the safety of their home. So that may become an issue.

Again, heavy mode can't be done online, so this can't become the standard. I share your frusturation though. Don't worry, just keep playing and you'll get better.

I think a lot of you are just mad that a game you love has been replaced. This isn't the first time this has happened. You can keep playing melee if you want. However, all the world will be playing Brawl, and I'm in it for the fame. Go tell your story to your family doctor, maybe he'll give you some Paxil to smooth you out.

I think MORE of our frusturations should be pointed at Sakurai. I am amazed how far a man will go to NOT make a game seem competitive. He is a tool, and slapped most of you in the face.

I mean, you really want to look at Brawl and say, wow this could be a great competitive game. Then you see tripping, and you see characters like Toon Link, MetaKnight, Pit, and Ike, and you say, "Wow this sucks." However, as I get better and better, I enjoy the game more and more, and I learn to deal with feminine gamestyles. Give the game at least 2 months guys.

 

[DRaGZ]

the only reason that you can even CONCEIVE that heavyness makes the game better is because you liked in MELEE. if there was no Melee, this thread wouldn't exist. In fact people would think Brawl was the bees knees if melee didn't exist.
Its clear that you want Melee 2.0, there's really nothing to argue. stop bull ****ting, get over it. It's okay.
Brawl is already competitive. I've been to and been made aware of several perfectly fine tournaments already. again, stop bull****ting.
I don't know why i'm writing this, theres nothing to argue. I'll be back when you stop BSing with yourself and everyone else.

way to be presumptuous. A plus.

I don't give a **** about who wants to have heavy brawl tourneys.
But REPLACING the NORMAL game with heavy melee is some of the most arbitrary dumb**** i've ever heard of.

Wow...just...wow.

Usually I try to be impartial and try to make a proper response, but it's very clear that you do not want an impartial or proper response, much less form a clear coherent argument.

You're not even worth the funny of giving the Marvin the Paranoid Android post.

 

[Corigames]

Can someone link me to a video comparing two serious people playing in normal mode (presumable camping/spamming and what-not) to a heavy brawl (hopefully showing once and for all that all atempts to spam are thwarted)?

Please? I'm still unconvinced.

 

[DRaGZ]

Hey, Dragz, its partly my fault. I talked to Gimpy shortly about it, and he told me why it would not succeed as the competitive standard. Mabey as a test side tourney he says, just not the competitive standard. Because new players wont conform as easily, or want to join a tourney if its not the way they usualy play, which 99% of the time is the normal mode. Thats the only issue.

I do not believe him for one bit.

I think we can make this viable if we can prove the concept with at least one tournament.

C'mon guys, we can do this.

 

[Revven]

We have a Wolf versus an extremely campy Toon Link. Wolf has one of four options: run at Toon Link and do a dash attack, approach Toon Link aerially, RAR Toon Link, or attempt to jump behind Toon Link and catch him by surprise. Of course, none of these will consistently work: the dash attack is far too predictable, the aerials approaches are predictable enough to be countered with a boomerang, and the jumping behind Toon Link is slow enough to be caught with an up-smash or a d-smash. Even if you fastfalled the aerials, it's still much too slow to do much good. Overall, Wolf is in a ****ty position, and a position I've found myself in quite often.

Umm... you've forgotten one other approach. What's unpredictable is jumping (or short hopping) the blaster in his face. I've done it numerous times to campers, it works pretty nicely. Just the other day, on Final Destination, I was facing a Wolf who was spamming his blaster thinking I'd approach by running to him or just jumping over his blasters. Instead, I did jump over his blasters, however, once I got between them I shot my own and made him stop.

Just an approach you forgot, and honestly, you want all approaches to be listed, right?

 

[DRaGZ]

Umm... you've forgotten one other approach. What's unpredictable is jumping (or short hopping) the blaster in his face. I've done it numerous times to campers, it works pretty nicely. Just the other day, on Final Destination, I was facing a Wolf who was spamming his blaster thinking I'd approach by running to him or just jumping over his blasters. Instead, I did jump over his blasters, however, once I got between them I shot my own and made him stop.

Just an approach you forgot, and honestly, you want all approaches to be listed, right?

Yeah, this is true, and it is something I forgot. And I didn't say approaches were impossible. I can approach with most of my mains now fairly easily.

The problem is punishment, and I've explained the concept a few times already, of which I'm sure you've already read.

Also, Wolf's real campy potential doesn't come from his blaster, although it helps. It mostly comes from the above-average range of his u-air, the ridiculous range of his f-air to stop incoming approachers, and his d-air which is a very quick sweeper.

Also, Wolf's not a very good spammer.

I'm not trying to josh your point or anything, because it's very valid. Just sayin' a point of my own.

 

[Corigames]

So........... can anybody here help me out or what?

 

[DRaGZ]

So........... can anybody here help me out or what?

I don't have the video set-up to do this, so I myself really can't.

Can anyone else with a video set-up try doing this?

In the meantime, the OP has some video posts that show human goin' at it (I think the first three posts).

I'm sorry I can't put up a direct comparison right now. I just don't have the means.

 

[Corigames]

I don't have the video set-up to do this, so I myself really can't.

Can anyone else with a video set-up try doing this?

In the meantime, the OP has some video posts that show human goin' at it (I think the first three posts).

I'm sorry I can't put up a direct comparison right now. I just don't have the means.

Ok, I just figured that if you wanted to make this the standard, that you would give side-by-side video proof for such claims. Just something I thought would help me and other "non-believers."

 

[DRaGZ]

Ok, I just figured that if you wanted to make this the standard, that you would give side-by-side video proof for such claims. Just something I thought would help me and other "non-believers."

I wish I could, but at the moment I just can't. I need to get my hands on a camera: I have the cable junk required to connect to my comp.

EDIT: But this is something you could just as easily test yourself at home. Have one friend be as campy as possible, literally camping as much as humanly possible and running away when you manage to approach (I suggest the camper use someone like Toon Link, R.O.B., Falco, Game and Watch, etc.). Then try this in Heavy Brawl. It's muuuch harder to do in Heavy Brawl.

 

[Corigames]

I wish I could, but at the moment I just can't. I need to get my hands on a camera: I have the cable junk required to connect to my comp.

EDIT: But this is something you could just as easily test yourself at home. Have one friend be as campy as possible, literally camping as much as humanly possible and running away when you manage to approach (I suggest the camper use someone like Toon Link, R.O.B., Falco, Game and Watch, etc.). Then try this in Heavy Brawl. It's muuuch harder to do in Heavy Brawl.

I'm the one that is usually campy and my friends have to put up with it. We tried heavy Brawl, but that still doesn't work. They are unable to avoid my spammy techniques. That's why I want to know how YOU guys are claiming that it helps. My roommate, namely, has problems with it, and he is a much "better" player than me. In the sense of what I call better.

 

[DRaGZ]

I'm the one that is usually campy and my friends have to put up with it. We tried heavy Brawl, but that still doesn't work. They are unable to avoid my spammy techniques. That's why I want to know how YOU guys are claiming that it helps. My roommate, namely, has problems with it, and he is a much "better" player than me. In the sense of what I call better.

Well, approach certainly becomes easier, but you still have to know how to do it. This is usually character specific. For R.O.B. it's easy as jumping over and spamming f-air. Wolf needs a varied appraoched, like a SHFFed nair or RARing.

Once you've approached, however, it's much easier to follow-up with punishment than in regular Brawl since it's literally harder for the camper to get away.

 

[Corigames]

I play Pit, does that change anything?

 

[DRaGZ]

I play Pit, does that change anything?

For what? For camping or for approaching?

I don't know how to approach or really do anything with Pit. I barely play as him.

For camping, he's one of the campiest there is. And it's still harder for him to get away.

P.S. I'm not responding to any more posts tonight, and I probably won't respond for a while tomorrow.

 

[Milos]

There's no real way to take online tournament beyond a semi-serious attitude: lag is just far too big of an issue. Trust me, I used to be part of the online tournament scene in Starsiege waaaaaay before competitive gaming was huge, and it never really got anything beyond friendlies and non-serious "ladder matches" because lag is always a huge issue when it comes to impartiality.

Explain Starcraft plz.

 

[Corigames]

Ok then, answer this for me tomorrow.

In heavy Brawl, I sometimes find it easier to keep my opponents at bay. I can shoot an arrow and hit them. If they try to jump, it takes only the slightest angle upward to catch them. So then they attempt to dodge it, which is just as difficult to do as in normal. You can take a step and spot-dodge, or roll. If they do the first, it is a long process, usually filled with mistakes or me charging up slightly to throw off their timing. If they choose the later, then I just hit them with a f-smash or other attack when they roll too close. It is very effective for me to play this style. Yes, it does make running to the other side harder for me, but not impossible. All I have to do is get a decent hit in one direction and I am free to run to the other. Either that, or grab them and throw them in the opposite direction of my path.

Plus, if people camp me, I have an effective approach. While over used by some people, I can use his > B to approach while also repelling/reflecting projectiles. This and the shield are key with Pit IMO. So when I camp, I usually end up winning. When I get camped, I usually out camp them and force them into plan A again. I don't see Brawl in Heavy Mode fixing that problem, at least not now or through the people I have been playing against, whom I consider to be good players.

The other thing, punishment. I don't get that either. Brawl, as almost everyone has previously noted, has low hitstun on most attacks. When you hit somebody, they can hit you right back, especially at low percents. This sucks. In heavy Brawl, this is amplified. I had to sit and watch two metaknights spam attacks at each other for about 5 minutes before one person lost a stock. They just kept trading hits until they were both pretty high. Then one got knocked of and the other found it extremely easy to edgegaurd him.

Which brings me to one last thing. Heavy makes it EXTREMELY hard to recover. That's one of the things that people ***** about most when I play. When I get them off, I can completely mess them up by stopping them with arrows. It honestly is completely unfair. I can throw Marth off and hit him with constant barrages of arrows until he dies. It sucks.

I just want to know if I'm just the master of camping (Which I know I'm not and pray I'm not), my friends completely blow (which I know they don't), if this whole heavy thing is bad (Which is what my money's on), or if there is some other answer.

Good night.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Alright, this is something I think should be put in the first post:

Automatic L-cancelling

For some reason, everyone seems to think that the automatic lag-canceling of moves has somehow disappeared with more gravity. This is not the case. Any move which lag-canceled before still lag cancels after switching to heavy gravity--in all cases, the cancel is more noticeable. Moves like Marth's Fair, Wolf's Bair, Pika's Bair, etc. are now quite effective combo starters and chain starters.

However, many characters that relied on autocanceling their short hopped (some even full hopped!) aerials can not perform them anymore in Heavy Brawl.

Also, I'm not trying to start anything when I say this, but I tried out heavy brawl for a bit and...omfg it felt just like Melee O_O

And...dare I say?...I ****ing LOVED it. Every fastfalling, tech chasing, **** comboing second of it. lol I felt guilty and didn't want to switch back.

Anyway, this camping thing...I thought I loved it but wow turns out I hate it just as much as the next guy. I'm gonna figure out how to beat camping, I don't care how long it takes. We've barely scratched the surface on this, it's a puzzle that I'd love to solve

 

[Wrath`]

I played this heavy brawl for about 2 hours last night, it just felt like brawl with more gravity, so i dont care ethier way, still perfer regular, but whatever.

 

[0RLY]

This is how I view Heavy Brawl:

Heavy Brawl solves problems against camping by opening new pathways for comboing so approaching is actually a viable tacitc.

Heavy Brawl changes game physics so much that different strategies will take place apart from normal brawl. Tournaments will have to regulate whether they will be playing normal or heavy brawl.

Stalling tactics, such as flying under the stage will be more difficult to accomplish.

A different tier list will be needed for Heavy Brawl.

IMO, heavy brawl isn't bad. It can be a viable alternative. We'll just have to seperate the community (again), on strategic discussions.

 

[:034:]

Normal Brawl VS Heavy Brawl is the new Items VS No Items.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Heavy Brawl brings some combos, but it totally destroys aerial combat and recovery. If you're below the stage, you're going to get KOed. Iterception is now completely removed! How about instead of trying to make Brawl like Melee, we all just admit that Melee is more fun and continue to play it?

 

[Superstar]

Why was it improved due to SHL? (not trying to be condescending, I'd just like an answer why). Fox's campiness in regular Brawl solely consisted of him drawing him opponent by pissing them off with his laser and then responding to an approach. This hasn't really changed in particular in Heavy Brawl, so what gives?

Fox falls faster in Heavy Brawl so he can hit with more lasers in the same time. Lasers normally go over people's heads, so you have to aim it close to the ground, so only one will usually hit. Heavy speeds up the process. Sure, his camping isn't godly in either normal or heavy Brawl personally, but maybe that's because I don't know how to take advantage of all his defensive options yet, I spent more of my time learning the drill 1-2 combos.

I actually like the gimped recoveries, but maybe that's because I play Fox.

 

[Phyvo]

Explain Starcraft plz.

Starcraft has a relatively small amount of lag online.

Moreover, even if you're dancing your hydras against zealots it's still not to hard to compensate for lag.

See, in RTSes the windows for executing strategies are generally much more generous. If you have .75 seconds of lag (which would actually be quite of bit of lag in SC) you can think to retreat your hydra earlier, and if he retreats .25 seconds later because you compensated imperfectly it's not a bit deal.

Compare this with fighting games which require *precise* inputs at *exactly* the right times, ALL THE TIME. You don't have to command 100 units, you don't have as many inputs per second as an RTS, but most of them have to be exactly right and have very small windows to work with. .25 seconds of lag uncompensated can mean ftilting after your opponent has jumped over your head, failing to shield an aerial, or (and I see this all the time in online matches) failing to airdodge exceeding obvious attacks when returning to the stage, dashing past each other because attacking. You can very much SEE that even the best online matches make good players look more idiotic and less in control of their character than what we've seen from the best matches in the flesh..

And now let's go to Korea. There, where Starcraft is practically a national sport, where players have micro so insane that lag WOULD impede things, they have the players playing each other on the stage, in the same physical location. The Blizzard Worldwide Invitational 2006 was held in Seoul, Korea. When things get really big, the biggest events just *are* in the same physical location. Maybe not specifically because of lag, but I'm just saying that the highest competitions of Starcraft are not played over the internet.