Help agains shiek please

[Gian]

okay i can finally beat the best player of my clan (a link player), but... theres this shiek player that cant beat the link but he owns me :S

well i need help she keeps chain grabing and i cant attk cuz she recovers to fast from her attks...
also i cant chain grab her... ive tried at 0% 2 forward throw then up throw to up tilt, but she keeps jumping out of it, and after about 10% i cant chain grab on any way....

 

[Dark Sonic]

Up throw to Up tilt only works at low percents. At anything higher she can jump out. But if she jumps out of it you can jump up and UAir her which is easily chained for decent damage. You can DI her chaingrab up and jump out of it at around 10% so I wouldn't really consider it a true chaingrab.


Link vs Marth is a little in Marth's favor while Marth vs Shiek is a fair amount in Shiek's favor. It's not an easy match, but you can still win so stop freaking out. Half of this matchup probably people just freaking out because their not use to a match not being in their favor from the start. She's honestly not that hard to beat. Get her of the edge with so FAirs, D-tilts, ect and grab the edge. They just get up by hitting foward on the control stick when she does the exploding part of her up B. If she went for the edge she just got edgehogged since the game still counts you as being on the edge while you're getting up. If she went up to try to fall on the ledge just foward smash her while she's in the air. If she went onto the stage behing you just WD backwards and F-Smash (or up B for more knockback at this range).

 

[Razgriz]

Fighting Sheik can be a *****. Don't use standard dodges if you can avoid them. Sheik's recovery from moves is broken. She'll just attack again. You've got to wavedash, shieldgrab, jump, etc to get away. If you feel rediculously oppressed, then just follow the advice of the best Marth in the world, Ken, and "Switch to Fox and **** the ho." Oh and throwing the Sheik up, chasing her DI and uptilts work like a charm, at least against the Sheiks I've fought.

 

[Dark Sonic]

The Shiek can jump to avoid the uptilts out of you're up throw, but if you see her doing that you can start chasing her with fairs after future throws. Both combos work nicely and you just have to pick the right one. FAir if she likes to jump out of your up throw and uptilt if she doesn't.

/rant

 

[ArcNatural]

Like everyone said, there is a reason most pro's get hit with the uptilt after the upthrow at low percentages. That's because if they double jump out of it, they can get fair or upair juggle'd across the stage. Most will choose to hold it and jump out at a safer time. Since many of us are hardly that consistent to recognize such an opening which is why most jump out of it earlier on.

This is where mindgames come in, if they constantly jump out of the upthrow that should be an automatic trigger in your mind to punish the jump. Then when they catch on and stop trying to double jump out, is when you start upthrowing to uptilt to keep the combo going. You need to learn to manipulate your opponents to create opportunities for yourself. This is the same as upthrowing Fox's and Falco's then Fthrowing to Fsmash when they don't expect it and possibly miss their tech.

 

[Razgriz]

Hmm I've been just chasing Sheiks with the up tilt, but that plan sounds better.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Sheik is very susceptible to FAIR chains to Ken combos, but these are generally fairly difficult. I think this is largely why at higher level play the Sheik advantage decreases somewhat.

If you don't have mastery of all the Marth techs it's much more difficult.

 

[Gian]

Hmm I've been just chasing Sheiks with the up tilt, but that plan sounds better.

LOL!

Sheik is very susceptible to FAIR chains to Ken combos, but these are generally fairly difficult. I think this is largely why at higher level play the Sheik advantage decreases somewhat.

If you don't have mastery of all the Marth techs it's much more difficult.

yeah, i thought i knew to do almoust everything with marth and now i just realised taht u can SHFFL aerials to a Ftilt or Utilt and im not used to it, also i did't knew u had to L-cancel double fairs

Like everyone said, there is a reason most pro's get hit with the uptilt after the upthrow at low percentages. That's because if they double jump out of it, they can get fair or upair juggle'd across the stage. Most will choose to hold it and jump out at a safer time. Since many of us are hardly that consistent to recognize such an opening which is why most jump out of it earlier on.

This is where mindgames come in, if they constantly jump out of the upthrow that should be an automatic trigger in your mind to punish the jump. Then when they catch on and stop trying to double jump out, is when you start upthrowing to uptilt to keep the combo going. You need to learn to manipulate your opponents to create opportunities for yourself. This is the same as upthrowing Fox's and Falco's then Fthrowing to Fsmash when they don't expect it and possibly miss their tech.

thank you for the tips :D, ill try al tips all of you told me next saturday (next match date) i hope they work.

 

[Dark Sonic]

He's not the only one that needs tips. I need help with Beaking Shieks combos. Whenever I get above 70% my friend uses the Down throw to FAir to take my stock. I've tried DIing away to avoid the FAir but he chases me and gets it anyway. When I tried back he just jumped back and hit me with the back of the FAir sending me the other way but still hitting me. Is there a way to avoid this? I'm normally good at avoiding grabs, but what do I do if he does get one?

 

[Tondemonaiyo]

For me, sheiks attacks are really predictable. When you get knocked to the other side of stage and are in mid air, theres a REALLY high chance shell try to fair you. Counter. Learn to predict her moves and counter.

(your title is mispelt and its bothering me. ALOT)

 

[Razgriz]

He's not the only one that needs tips. I need help with Beaking Shieks combos. Whenever I get above 70% my friend uses the Down throw to FAir to take my stock. I've tried DIing away to avoid the FAir but he chases me and gets it anyway. When I tried back he just jumped back and hit me with the back of the FAir sending me the other way but still hitting me. Is there a way to avoid this? I'm normally good at avoiding grabs, but what do I do if he does get one?

You can't be serious... He hits ur backwards DI with a FAir? I really hope tristan_win doesn't learn about that... I deal with quite enough of his Sheik gayness as it is. Hmmm... I don't think there's a whole hell of a lot you can do against Sheik's unfair FAir attack.. I've seen Marths DI forward and down to try to escape every once in a while, but I don't think there is any guarunteed way to escape it. In the words of Ken: "I'm sorry to say this but Marth doesn't beat Sheik. Switch to Fox and **** the ho."

 

[ArcNatural]

At certain % for the dthrow to fair it's like Falcon's dthrow to knee, if they guess your DI your done. I tend to either DI behind them for a better chance of survival after the fair hits, or down and away when I'm close enough to possible tech the stage or the floor. Plus alot of Sheik's don't think to sh fair that and occasionally they miss with the full jumped fair.

Things I like to do against Sheiks:

low grab % strategies:
upthrow wavedash (or dash) chase 2nd jump to shffl upair or uptilt (when they are landing) to some combo. Normally for me this is like a shffl upair, uptilt, fair juggle combo.

fthrow dtilt, fsmash or regrab to something.

If they constantly DI away from fthrows and upthrows, dthrow or bthrow to fsmash.

near the edge (facing into the stage) bthrow or dthrow to sh or fj bair to dbj dair.

Learn to use dancing edge to stop people from rolling behind shffl'd aerials and grabbing you.

mid to high percentages:

Practically every throw is some variation of a tech chase, if you can't upthrow and manage to keep them above you, stick to tech chasing throws (such as dthrow).

Get them off the stage and punish the recovery as much as you can.

This is pretty much all I do in terms of openings for the most part from grabs.
Everything else is pretty spontaneous. You can not get chain grabbed beyond twice against a Sheik, so if you are that's a problem. Avoid doing Fsmashes unless your well spaced, she is in the air or your just sure you have a good chance to hit it. Sheik is just too fast and can punish the fsmash lag severely, if you tip it though she can't even when shielded due to shield lag. My 2 cents, and good luck.

 

[Gian]

Learn to use dancing edge to stop people from rolling behind shffl'd aerials and grabbing you.

Dancing edge??

 

[Tondemonaiyo]

Up throw to Up tilt only works at low percents. At anything higher she can jump out. But if she jumps out of it you can jump up and UAir her which is easily chained for decent damage. You can DI her chaingrab up and jump out of it at around 10% so I wouldn't really consider it a true chaingrab.


Link vs Marth is a little in Marth's favor while Marth vs Shiek is a fair amount in Shiek's favor. It's not an easy match, but you can still win so stop freaking out. Half of this matchup probably people just freaking out because their not use to a match not being in their favor from the start. She's honestly not that hard to beat. Get her of the edge with so FAirs, D-tilts, ect and grab the edge. They just get up by hitting foward on the control stick when she does the exploding part of her up B. If she went for the edge she just got edgehogged since the game still counts you as being on the edge while you're getting up. If she went up to try to fall on the ledge just foward smash her while she's in the air. If she went onto the stage behing you just WD backwards and F-Smash (or up B for more knockback at this range).

About the edge guarding thing, thats really smart. Im a sheik player and Its REALLY annoying/difficult to get back up on the stage from the edge. Take this guy's advice

 

[Razgriz]

near the edge (facing into the stage) bthrow or dthrow to sh or fj bair to dbj dair.

What do "fj" and "dbj" mean?

Also, and this is probably a noob question, but if you properly Shuffle a FAir and then immediately spotdodge it's impossible to be shieldgrabbed due to shieldstun right?

 

[Somebody]

What do "fj" and "dbj" mean?

Also, and this is probably a noob question, but if you properly Shuffle a FAir and then immediately spotdodge it's impossible to be shieldgrabbed due to shieldstun right?

I think he means "full jump" and "double jump"

Yes and no. If you hit high on their sheild they can get you before you hit the ground but if you hit lower then you can dodge or roll before they have a chance to get you. This also depends on how fast the chars grab is.

 

[Gian]

Learn to use dancing edge to stop people from rolling behind shffl'd aerials and grabbing you.

Dancing edge??

 

[Hydde]

one thing almost always works for me is to grab her at 0% and uthrow her like some mentioned, then uptilt and when she is going away look for a combo.

She can escape that combo even in 0% , but if she mess ups, u can rag about 40% or more with some uptilts and fairs combos after.

 

[Gian]

i founded out that at 0% F-throw F-throw U-trhow is unstopable after taht she can double jump -_-

 

[Hydde]

yeah, because of the the uthrow thing must be done at 0% to get a better chance of getting her with the uptilt, but she can scape anyways.

and about the fthrw fthrw thing,, im not sure but i think some sheiks have scaped that combo from me even at 0% so i think that if she is aware and Di properly she can escape.

 

[ArcNatural]

fj = full jump, dbl = double jump

as for the fair, spotdodge. As long as you space it your ok, and make sure you use the fair very low on the shield. If you hit the shield high they can grab you before your fair animation ends if they are quick enough even with a shffl.

An example of this is the fox dash attack. If they constantly are dash attacking so that they end up behind you and you can't grab them, just wat till the very instant they hit your shield with the dash attack then grab before the fox passes. Even though they are still in their attacking frames you can still grab them before they end up behind you. This is also why you can grab falco's who hit high on your shield when they try to pillar before they can shine.


Edit: Dancing edge, I meant his >b move/combo.

New tip against Shieks:

If they are stupid enough to dash attack you at high percentages while your in shield, reverse up B out of shield!

 

[Razgriz]

Ya Marth players underutilize the up-b a lot...

 

[FrostByte]

I wouldn't recommend using the dancing blade against a sheik at all unless you know you're going to hit. Crouch cancel - Dtilt - Fair is Sheik's friend.

 

[Razgriz]

I wouldn't recommend using the dancing blade against a sheik at all unless you know you're going to hit. Crouch cancel - Dtilt - Fair is Sheik's friend.

Crouch cancel - Dtilt - FAir is Sheik's ***** in all of Marth's orifaces. I'm sorry if that was offensive, I just hate Sheiks sometimes. You can overcome them at higher levels of play, but I just don't like seeing smug novice players using Sheik and playing on near the same level as fairly advanced Marth players. It just makes me want to vomit.

 

[Hydde]

Crouch cancel - Dtilt - FAir is Sheik's ***** in all of Marth's orifaces. I'm sorry if that was offensive, I just hate Sheiks sometimes. You can overcome them at higher levels of play, but I just don't like seeing smug novice players using Sheik and playing on near the same level as fairly advanced Marth players. It just makes me want to vomit.

amen.


The dancing blade works nice against sheik BUT you must be sure that she is not expecting it and will not CC. If she dont CC you have a fair chance of getting a good combo or even a tipper if you dont use the last attack of the dance.

If she CC, you are doomed XD

 

[Dark Sonic]

If she CC, you are doomed XD

Well you can crouch cancel her D-tilt and tech it to roll away. Yeah I hate how we have to have such a large gap in skill to be successfull against said Shiek player.
If you do the Dancing Blade fast enough she won't get the down tilt unless they're really, really good with their timing.

At low percentages I found it usefull to use a Dair to get a free grab on Shiek and up throw to full hop Double Fair her out of her second jump. Shieks often use their second jump out of the up throw over here since they saw Marths chaining uptilts on them so I use this to punish them for using their second jump so early and now they can't get out of the rest of my combo.

 

[Micheloxx]

can i ask something, does that sheik boders you with the knifes or that strange thing he throws? because thats the marth`s weak point vs sheik i think..

 

[Anomic_Punk]

Sheik's needles are more of a way to pressure their opponent into coming at them, hoping for an opportunity.
They're easy to get around, Marth can simply shield them or jump over them.
I think its actually easy to punish needle spamming, jump over the needles and throw the aerial of your choice or a neutral B.

 

[Hydde]

The problem with the needles is thata fully charged needle deals around 16% damage..and well against sheik you canty afford to give to her any % for free. Well you just have try to predict when she will use it. They charge the needles most of the tiome when they Ko you.


But this is nothing in comparison with the needle out of the stage.... which KO marths instantly because of the interruption of marth´s momentum when returning to stage.

I just hate when i get hit with that ****

 

[Gian]

thats y u should keep ur seconde jump, in case she hits u with them u can still recovery (only use second jump unless u need it [ on recoveries ])...dont know who said that. 0.o

 

[ArcNatural]

Only thing about needles is you can't be stupid enough to double jump or >b when she can horizontal needle you. Other than that you need to be more worried about every other version of edgegaurding she has, (which is a ton).

As for the >b thing against sheik. Like I said I tend to use it when they roll behind (normally they are looking to grab), you can just turn and grab them as well I guess. But I tend to like doing >b >b downB then tech chase, if they miss the tech, dtilt -> Fsmash or something. Very rare that they will look to crouch cancel out of a roll, just start grabbing if that happens.

 

[julealgon]

I've been reading this topic since yesterday, and by pure coincidence my friend who plays Sheik went to play at my house yesterday night too.

Well, point is, I can't win against him anymore, it's very sad but true. Up until now, I was somewhat even when he played Sheik, but yesterday I think I've hit some kind of barrier, where he got a tiny better and I just can't cope with it. It went to the point where he had 5 lives left one time (we play 15 lives games).

Problem is... I'm doing everything right here! I mean, I think (almost sure here) that I have quite a bit more technical skill than him. Everything I do is L-Canceled, I started using Wavedash decently to land some random F-smashes and such... I have also a decent recovery game (when comparing both of us that is).

This character is so cheesy that even HIM admitted it to be so. For christ's sake, that fair is just unfair (pun intended). He can consistently kill me at 80-90% + edgeguarding, but I can't land a killing hit even after 120%! That "thing" is so freaking fast it's not even funny, it makes my Marth look like a turtle in comparison... what's up with Sheik's recovery times? There MUST be something amiss here. He can just roll and spotdodge forever and I have what, a single frame to hit him? He also always end up rolling behind me and I don't know what to do, and always end up using over B to hit him (really bad choice I know). If I try anything else, he just grabs me, since all of my other hits are slower than that. I tryed facing backwards and grabbing him myself, but I fo]ind it too hard to get it right, as I always end up running instead of just turning around. The same thing happens when utilting... I tend to either get an up-smash or a U-air.

My basic idea now is to try and grab him as much as possible at low %s, and *try* to land a decent combo with utilts and such, but this has also come to a point where I can't land more than 1 or 2 utilts, and anything else I try to do is worthless as he manages to DI out of my range all the time. This is all good, but then *I* can't DI out of his downthrow, and I occasionally end up getting him MORE than once... he generally gets an upsmash out of it and I just can't do anything about it. I was so frustrated yesterday that I started mashing every button in hopes that something happened, but even then I can't do **** against that.

Double fairs are also impossible to land somehow (it seems...), and all the time it took to get the timing right was needless in this case, as it serves no purpose. I have accostumed myself to approach him with SHFFL nairs but even those get me open to a grab or anything he throws at me. Also, there is something else that bothers me which is that he sometimes gets TWO HITS out of his up-smash! How can this be? That way, he takes as much as 50% in a fraction of seconds, while it takes me a good chunk of hits to get to that.


What should I do better here? I think I just CAN'T win against him anymore if I keep up with this style of play, and it is really discouraging to see I DO have better skill than him, but I still get beaten by extremely cheap "always-hits" combos that even a 3 year old can assemble.

...maybe if I secretly buy the PAL version I would surprise him

But seriously, I need urgent advice here.
(sorry for the long post)

 

[ArcNatural]

Above all things, this matchup is one of the few matchups where Marth is better off being a little more defensive than most of his other matchups. Wavedashing out of shield, intercepting, being patient is a good thing against Sheik. Doing a typical Marth fair spam and shffls to and fro is just going to get you killed.

Avoiding throws:

Hard to do, at low percentages quick DI up and away wiggle the control stick and jumping out works, and all they can do is tilt to hit you. Sheik does have too many options out of the throw so you just have to learn to DI most of them for the least amount of damage.

If he constantly DIs just out of your range 3 things:

1) cover more ground on the ground rather than jumping to hit him so soon. If your missing him your not taking into consideration "his" di, where you jump as if you were going to hit a straight falling opponent with no di (stupid lvl 1 cpu training does that ).

2) do a empty shff waveland to uptilt, I don't know about you but I catch so many sheik's trying to fall with a fair or nair to intercept my aerial that they never see the uptilt coming.

3) ever think of just rushing and doing nothing? rush in and wavedash to shield if he lands with a fair or nair, or just rush and wait for him to do anything and learn to predict.

Rolls:

If he rolls quite a bit LEARN THE GRAB TIME. If the timing is too hard for you but shffl isn't I don't know what to say. You can also space yourself and try to do a shffl fair when he comes up. Learn the max speed to do the >b >b downb so you can bounce him if he crouch cancels.

Other comments:
shdf isn't as useful in this matchup, a lot of times a single shffl fair to dtilt/fsmash/grab is better as you can try to edgeguard. I like shffl upairs to f-smash alot in this matchup, as well as trying to gimp the recovery as often as possible (especially since sheik can do this much easier than you can).

This matchup isn't that bad if you can learn to be patient and not let her speed get to you. Overall I would avoid doing shdf, sh fair to waveland, and single aerials to keep your speed up is much better overall, since the sheik will have a much harder time trying to break a landing aerial l-canceled than just dashing after the first fair to anything she wants. SHDF in this matchup I think is only applicable during a combo, don't use it often to try to start one.

 

[julealgon]

That's some seriously good advice you've got there, thanks for it!

I will point some random things from it:

Hard to do, at low percentages quick DI up and away wiggle the control stick and jumping out works, and all they can do is tilt to hit you.

I've noticed that wiggling the stick back and forth does produce some decent results in helping with air recovery, but I also have trouble doing it for the simple fact that you either DI or try to recover. With this in mind, what if I use the C-Stick to DI and the normal one to recover? Is this at all possible? I've heard the C-Stick has the priority when it comes to DI, so enlight me please.

1) cover more ground on the ground rather than jumping to hit him so soon. If your missing him your not taking into consideration "his" di, where you jump as if you were going to hit a straight falling opponent with no di (stupid lvl 1 cpu training does that ).

I do try to do that a lot, but I have a slight problem with this approach: I can't time my utilt correctly 100% of the time, and this usually leads me to being hit by a dair from his Sheik (I think it is a dair...). I have been practicing this a lot recently and got better, but I still miss the timing sometimes which bothers me a little.

2) do a empty shff waveland to uptilt, I don't know about you but I catch so many sheik's trying to fall with a fair or nair to intercept my aerial that they never see the uptilt coming.

This does sound excellent, but I believe that with my level I couldn't perform such a move on the fry, as I still miss some simple wavedashes sometimes and, as I mentioned, utilts are my weakness, as I tend to either do an uair or an up-smash instead, probably because I still suck in the game. Seeing I would have to fastfall, do a waveland AND then an utilt seems extremelly hard. I will try this though, it seems to have awesome potential, and the exemple you provided makes complete sense to me.

If he rolls quite a bit LEARN THE GRAB TIME. If the timing is too hard for you but shffl isn't I don't know what to say.

Well... what can I say? It's exactly like you pointed out: I can do SHFFLs whenever I want (say 85% ) but I can't turn around and grab. I know, this sounds dumb, but I have still a hard time with the control setup in this game, in that sometimes when I want to walk or run I do the opposite. In this situation, when I try to face backwards and grab, I tend to run instead, which opens me a lot to new attacks.

Learn the max speed to do the >b >b downb so you can bounce him if he crouch cancels.

...this should be ">b>a" right? From my experience, and from what I've heard out there, subsequent hits with the A button are faster. Am I right?

Also, to compliment the rest of information about my playing ability, I'm still starting to use the C-Stick for aerials (I know it's the best option), but I'm not yet fully acostumed to it. I just find it too far to move from the buttons to the stick in some situations. A SHFFL uair can pose some dangerous problems to me for exemple, as that would almost surely require the use of the C-Stick in an unusual (to me of course) way.


I will give some serious attention to your comments Arcnatural, very informative.

 

[Silver Sytos]

It's wierd, f-tilt works ok if a sheik is just outright dash attacking you, though I suspect that doesn't happen in high levels of play.

I was reading the above and its true, SHDF doesn't work well vs. Sheiks. So my question is, whats a good approach for Marth? If sheik is being defensive and using needles to lure me, how should I rush in? Aerials don't seem to work that well since she exploits the lag, but running doesn't work too well either...

 

[ArcNatural]

You don't need to use the c-stick to DI out of it. I almost never do but I guess I can throw it out there and see if it helps. Normally if they are looking to CG I just DI up which will stop the chainthrow, and if they tilt immediately DI away to avoid anything else. I guess the best option if you have the speed for it would be to asdi up with c-stick and wiggle with the control stick. But you don't need to to it.

I tend to do >b>b downB simply because I like to have them bounce if the are trying to crouch cancel the attack. I was just pointing out that you can possibly not be doing it as fast as possible.

As for approaching, it realllllllllllllllllllllllllly depends on the Sheik's style of play. But for a needle spamming looking to exploit landing aerial lag. You can do many things. You can dash to shield to wavedash out of shield approach. You can make sure that your fairs are hitting as low as possible on the ground giving them less time to run in and grab. Or you can just empty shffl to grab, waveland back fsmash, etc. Learn to waveshield (wavedashing in and out of shield) this opens up so many more options out of shield that I taught myself to always shield with L and wavedash with R simply so I can do this more easily.

I actually think that for learning purposes, Sheik is probably the best way to learn mindgames when your still learning. Practically everyone else you can just spam aerials, edgeguard easily, and mostly easy recovery back to the stage. Against Sheiks you need to curb that desire to always land with an aerial and to aerial spam. You need to learn to DI properly to avoid the most damage (like fox upairs), and you need to not make mistakes. IMO it is the ultimate new Marth skill tester.

 

[julealgon]

I guess the best option if you have the speed for it would be to asdi up with c-stick and wiggle with the control stick. But you don't need to to it.

I always find my friend's grabs are very predictable, but I generally can't avoid them because of hitting/shielding/recovering lag, so I think I could work this out speedwise. We play very sparsingly though, so this will have to wait to next time we actualy play.

I tend to do >b>b downB simply because I like to have them bounce if the are trying to crouch cancel the attack. I was just pointing out that you can possibly not be doing it as fast as possible.

No no no, I think you misunderstood me. My point was that when you do subsequent hits on a Dancing Blade with A instead of B it is actualy faster. So in your example it would be >B>A down A.

Learn to waveshield (wavedashing in and out of shield)...

Not to nitpick too much, but I think Waveshielding is the act of wavedashing WITH a shield up a portion of it's duration, when you hold the shield button a bit more. It is a bit different than Wavedashing out of shield.

I actually think that for learning purposes, Sheik is probably the best way to learn mindgames when your still learning.

I have to agree with that. Sheik does require quite a bit more strategy to play against than the general guys.

 

[TGM]

shiek is mega hard for me too. i find up-tilts and OVER B works great. once shes off the stage its mega easy to win.

 

[ArcNatural]

No no no, I think you misunderstood me. My point was that when you do subsequent hits on a Dancing Blade with A instead of B it is actualy faster. So in your example it would be >B>A down A..

I understand what you mean, in the fact that using A after the first B would be faster. And if it works and is the better option fine, all I was trying to say is that you can slow down the >b combo and speed it up. I personally do not use >B>A downA so I don't know how well it works. So I won't comment that. I honestly didn't know that a >b to ftilt or fsmash (whichever your implying) would be faster than the 2nd >b. I guess I'll have to try it.

Not to nitpick too much, but I think Waveshielding is the act of wavedashing WITH a shield up a portion of it's duration, when you hold the shield button a bit more. It is a bit different than Wavedashing out of shield.

They are all variations. Hold shield while wavedashing, wavedashing out of shield, wavedashing into shield. Only difference between wavedashing out of shield is you let go of shield before the wavedash ends. How would you call a wavedash out of shield if it isn't a variation of waveshielding? I didn't know what else to call it, but if you practice waveshielding it's pretty easy to do all of the variations that come along with it. Sorry if that confused anyone.

 

[captainlukey]

can someone please tell me wat the ken combo is....
i dont main marth