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Help against my worst matchups

Miryafa

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 19, 2014
Messages
142
I dunno if all Zeldas have trouble with these, but I definitely do: Diddy, Squirtle, Kirby, and Ness. Maybe it's the fact that my friends main these characters, or that I'm a worse player then them, I don't know, but I have more trouble with these characters than anyone else.

Maybe the biggest thing for all 4 of these characters is that it feels like they're faster than Zelda. It seems like all of them both hit faster (i.e. if we smash attack at the same time theirs hits and mine doesn't), and have so much less attack-animation-lag that they can throw out a dash or smash attack and shield before my LK/whatever hits them, but the opposite is definitely not true. So I play defensively with fireballs and shielding, but get killed by their individual strengths, below.

First, I feel like I get punished for playing well against Diddy. Meaning:
1. I R-cancel tumbling falls and then get picked up by his dash attack and carried off-stage for an up-B spike, forward-air, or forward-smash. When I shield or roll (I mean R+left/right, dunno the correct term) the same thing happens (so Diddy's dash attack has a shield spike?) and I can't get away from it.
2. Down-air seems useless against his up-B recovery, and leads to me getting hit. Edge-guarding it feels impossible because of the way Diddy can go higher or lower, and longer or shorter once he reaches the stage. Shielding and grabbing worked once, but it's hard to get in position for.
3. He's unaffected by his own bananas, but I'm not. Picking up a banana seems to just waste time because he can side-B over them or re-pick them up faster than I can get to him.

Then, Squirtle is so tough for me as Zelda I started thinking he was top-tier until I beat him as Ivysaur.
1. I can almost never grab him and can't up-smash him or even forward-smash him because he's so short, taking away one my more consistent kill/combo setups. As with every small character it's hard to connect with LKs.
2. His side-B has too much armor to break without a perfectly timed NL or LK, or exploding DF if I have one placed already. but I usually don't because it also covers distance very quickly, sets up combos, and makes it very hard to approach from the side.
3. I can't approach from above because of his up-smash.
4. I have no idea how to edge-guard his up-B.

I originally thought Kirby was Zelda's worst matchup before I faced Squirtle for these reasons:
1. He's not as short as Squirtle, so I can forward-smash him, but can't grab or up-smash or easily LK.
2. He is so fast that his weak attacks combo into each other before I can respond, and his strong ones (like side-B) kill the floaty Zelda. Plus they almost always come out before mine.
3. I'm not sure what to do about his down-throw-jab-cancel combo, if anything can be done. Rolling away from him sometimes works, but I dunno.
4. He can fly out far enough to get a side-B at the edge of the screen before I can finish my up-B animation, and using up-B any earlier means not reaching the ledge.

Ness doesn't seem as tough, but these stand out to me:
1. He's fast like Kirby, and seems like he can attack me as much as he wants unless I side-step counter-attack. And I'm not that good at side-stepping.
2. He can both absorb DF and approach at the same time with his aerial-down-B.
3. He can bait me to use NL with PK-Fire far enough away that the fire doesn't reach him, then run in and punish. Shielding PK-Fire makes escape slow (and I get punished for it), and I'm not practiced enough at side-stepping to dodge it often.
4. His Bair is as strong as LK and faster.
5. His Dair against grounded Zelda sets up for Bair. Eg. PK-fire - down-throw - Dair - Bair - PK Flash (while I'm still in hitstun) - death

Please help, even if it's just "get better at [X] and this won't happen." Is this in my head, or are these actually bad matchups? And most important: how can I overcome these problems?
 

Garde Noir

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
261
Location
West Chester, PA
First, I feel like I get punished for playing well against Diddy. Meaning:
1. I R-cancel tumbling falls and then get picked up by his dash attack and carried off-stage for an up-B spike, forward-air, or forward-smash. When I shield or roll (I mean R+left/right, dunno the correct term) the same thing happens (so Diddy's dash attack has a shield spike?) and I can't get away from it.
2. Down-air seems useless against his up-B recovery, and leads to me getting hit. Edge-guarding it feels impossible because of the way Diddy can go higher or lower, and longer or shorter once he reaches the stage. Shielding and grabbing worked once, but it's hard to get in position for.
3. He's unaffected by his own bananas, but I'm not. Picking up a banana seems to just waste time because he can side-B over them or re-pick them up faster than I can get to him.
Diddy is obnoxious, This I agree, The only real way I can siggest anything (as this is one of my worst as well) is to watch a lot of diddy kong. Search for the S@X on VGBC's Youtube, and watch what they do. The key to beating Diddy is anticipation

Then, Squirtle is so tough for me as Zelda I started thinking he was top-tier until I beat him as Ivysaur.
1. I can almost never grab him and can't up-smash him or even forward-smash him because he's so short, taking away one my more consistent kill/combo setups. As with every small character it's hard to connect with LKs.
2. His side-B has too much armor to break without a perfectly timed NL or LK, or exploding DF if I have one placed already. but I usually don't because it also covers distance very quickly, sets up combos, and makes it very hard to approach from the side.
3. I can't approach from above because of his up-smash.
4. I have no idea how to edge-guard his up-B.
We have a Squirtle Thread, Please refer to that =D http://smashboards.com/threads/squirtles.352325/#post-17098313
I originally thought Kirby was Zelda's worst matchup before I faced Squirtle for these reasons:
1. He's not as short as Squirtle, so I can forward-smash him, but can't grab or up-smash or easily LK.
2. He is so fast that his weak attacks combo into each other before I can respond, and his strong ones (like side-B) kill the floaty Zelda. Plus they almost always come out before mine.
3. I'm not sure what to do about his down-throw-jab-cancel combo, if anything can be done. Rolling away from him sometimes works, but I dunno.
4. He can fly out far enough to get a side-B at the edge of the screen before I can finish my up-B animation, and using up-B any earlier means not reaching the ledge.
being a Kirby and Zelda secondary, I can tell you that Kirby's practice Zelda a lot. The key to killing kirby is stopping the combos. Nayru's Love should always be used as a panic button. Kirby falls very vulnerable to that. His approach game is also negated pretty hard by Jabs. Utilize the jabs as best you can, Din's fire should be placed at the edge, but also around you. Close is good for zelda, bad for kirby. He'll approach from the air, and that's when up smash and up-tilt work really well. Watch for dash attacks, as those are pretty nasty, though.
Ness doesn't seem as tough, but these stand out to me:
1. He's fast like Kirby, and seems like he can attack me as much as he wants unless I side-step counter-attack. And I'm not that good at side-stepping.
2. He can both absorb DF and approach at the same time with his aerial-down-B.
3. He can bait me to use NL with PK-Fire far enough away that the fire doesn't reach him, then run in and punish. Shielding PK-Fire makes escape slow (and I get punished for it), and I'm not practiced enough at side-stepping to dodge it often.
4. His Bair is as strong as LK and faster.
5. His Dair against grounded Zelda sets up for Bair. Eg. PK-fire - down-throw - Dair - Bair - PK Flash (while I'm still in hitstun) - death
The Key to Ness is the Grab game, and strategic Lightning Kick. you need to approach him, grab and back throw. Ness is all about ground combos and strong Air. As you said, Din's fire is only good if you're anticipating where he's going to recover. N-air works pretty well because of its multiple hitboxes. Lightning Kick should only be used when he's falling, or after a Jab.
 

Kaeldiar

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
563
Location
MDVAiridian City
I dunno if all Zeldas have trouble with these, but I definitely do: Diddy, Squirtle, Kirby, and Ness. Maybe it's the fact that my friends main these characters, or that I'm a worse player then them, I don't know, but I have more trouble with these characters than anyone else.

Maybe the biggest thing for all 4 of these characters is that it feels like they're faster than Zelda. It seems like all of them both hit faster (i.e. if we smash attack at the same time theirs hits and mine doesn't), and have so much less attack-animation-lag that they can throw out a dash or smash attack and shield before my LK/whatever hits them, but the opposite is definitely not true. So I play defensively with fireballs and shielding, but get killed by their individual strengths, below.

First, I feel like I get punished for playing well against Diddy. Meaning:
1. I R-cancel tumbling falls and then get picked up by his dash attack and carried off-stage for an up-B spike, forward-air, or forward-smash. When I shield or roll (I mean R+left/right, dunno the correct term) the same thing happens (so Diddy's dash attack has a shield spike?) and I can't get away from it.
2. Down-air seems useless against his up-B recovery, and leads to me getting hit. Edge-guarding it feels impossible because of the way Diddy can go higher or lower, and longer or shorter once he reaches the stage. Shielding and grabbing worked once, but it's hard to get in position for.
3. He's unaffected by his own bananas, but I'm not. Picking up a banana seems to just waste time because he can side-B over them or re-pick them up faster than I can get to him.

Then, Squirtle is so tough for me as Zelda I started thinking he was top-tier until I beat him as Ivysaur.
1. I can almost never grab him and can't up-smash him or even forward-smash him because he's so short, taking away one my more consistent kill/combo setups. As with every small character it's hard to connect with LKs.
2. His side-B has too much armor to break without a perfectly timed NL or LK, or exploding DF if I have one placed already. but I usually don't because it also covers distance very quickly, sets up combos, and makes it very hard to approach from the side.
3. I can't approach from above because of his up-smash.
4. I have no idea how to edge-guard his up-B.

I originally thought Kirby was Zelda's worst matchup before I faced Squirtle for these reasons:
1. He's not as short as Squirtle, so I can forward-smash him, but can't grab or up-smash or easily LK.
2. He is so fast that his weak attacks combo into each other before I can respond, and his strong ones (like side-B) kill the floaty Zelda. Plus they almost always come out before mine.
3. I'm not sure what to do about his down-throw-jab-cancel combo, if anything can be done. Rolling away from him sometimes works, but I dunno.
4. He can fly out far enough to get a side-B at the edge of the screen before I can finish my up-B animation, and using up-B any earlier means not reaching the ledge.

Ness doesn't seem as tough, but these stand out to me:
1. He's fast like Kirby, and seems like he can attack me as much as he wants unless I side-step counter-attack. And I'm not that good at side-stepping.
2. He can both absorb DF and approach at the same time with his aerial-down-B.
3. He can bait me to use NL with PK-Fire far enough away that the fire doesn't reach him, then run in and punish. Shielding PK-Fire makes escape slow (and I get punished for it), and I'm not practiced enough at side-stepping to dodge it often.
4. His Bair is as strong as LK and faster.
5. His Dair against grounded Zelda sets up for Bair. Eg. PK-fire - down-throw - Dair - Bair - PK Flash (while I'm still in hitstun) - death

Please help, even if it's just "get better at [X] and this won't happen." Is this in my head, or are these actually bad matchups? And most important: how can I overcome these problems?
Diddy is a hard MU for anyone. Squirtle is so bad for Zelda that the MU gets its own thread. Ness is difficult if you don't know what you're doing, but I think a smart Zelda wins the MU. Kirby is frustrating.

Diddy:
1. DI his dash attack in, so that you end up behind him at the end. If you shield it, consider being patient. He'll want to hit you right after dash attack, so EXPECT SOMETHING! If he goes for something. You can usually b-air OoS to punish. If he goes for a grab, you will have to spotdodge then do the same.
2. Familiarize yourself with Diddy's recovery. If you see where he is going, then you can punish AFTER he lands and not get hit by the stupid barrel. Super important info-graphic > http://i.imgur.com/2l28gov.png
3. Teledashing over bananas is a quick way to pick them up. Picking them up is CRUCIAL against Diddy. If you just let him have the stage control, you WILL lose. Think about an opponent that doesn't punish Din's and just lets you set-up. How easy would that be! That's what happens when you don't pick up bananas.

4. If he tries to hit you with a peanut or banana while you are recovering, catch and AGT it. Air dodge straight up as it's coming in, then immediately c-stick down to toss it away. Then laugh at the stupidly large amount of height you gain. Zelda's AGT is godlike.
5. Zhime v Junebug
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjsbBlUjeqk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahl0uSnImJg

Squirtle:
see thread, especially otheusrex's post about side-b percentages

Kirby:
This is a weird MU, because you don't really have definite options other than "out space him" and "DI well." I don't have a lot of experience here, but I'll help best I can. Always DI away from him, because his air speed is sort of slow. He'll have trouble chasing you in the air, other than by using side-Final Cutter, but only if you DI away. Din's helps control space pretty well, since he can't non-commitally f-air through them like Jiggz.

Zhime v Chudat

Ness:
Zelda's d-throw and f-throw lead into some good combos, and b-throw will kill. Be careful when placing Din's, as you might plop yourself right in range to get hit. Wavebouncing is a good idea. It will push you back as you cast Din's. Just input the normal forward-b while in the air, then IMMEDIATELY hit back and then forward again on the control stick. LC Nayru's is probably your best approach, because it sort of shuts him down.

Edgeguarding Ness:
He has 7 frames of invincibility at the start of PKT2, so do NOT go out to hit him unless you KNOW you will get there before PKT2 starts...your basic options
1. Jump out and kick him while he's is trying to hit himself with PKT
2. Jump on top of him so that PKT hits you and disappears (ultimate disrespect)
3. If you cannot safely make it out to where he is before he starts PKT2, try to get a feel for where PKT2 stops so that you can punish him (likely with a kick). He has a fair amount of maneuverability after it, so this is harder than it sounds, and if he hits the ground during PKT2, he has like 0 endlag.
4. Grab him out of PKT2
5. D-smash him out of PKT2 (you have leg invincibility so this is actually a thing)
6. You CAN kick him out of PKT2 at any point with just a f-air or b-air, but the spacing is difficult and you'll end up trading. HINT: You lose the trade

More Ness stuff:
Don't get hit by PK Fire. Ever. Do your absolute best NOT to get hit. Remember that shielding it is almost worse than just flat out getting hit. You need to AVOID it, not just block it. Reflecting it doesn't work very well, as you know. If he tries to absorb Din's, go and punish it! If it looks like he's getting ready to absorb, be waiting to punish. Try not to get grabbed, and get plenty of grabs yourself. Ness and Zelda both have near-guaranteed follow-ups on their d-throws against each other.

THE SUMMARY:
Don't get too close when casting Din's
Grab!
Teledashing is good
LC Nayru's as an approach
PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE until Zelda is second nature
 
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