Miryafa
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2014
- Messages
- 142
I dunno if all Zeldas have trouble with these, but I definitely do: Diddy, Squirtle, Kirby, and Ness. Maybe it's the fact that my friends main these characters, or that I'm a worse player then them, I don't know, but I have more trouble with these characters than anyone else.
Maybe the biggest thing for all 4 of these characters is that it feels like they're faster than Zelda. It seems like all of them both hit faster (i.e. if we smash attack at the same time theirs hits and mine doesn't), and have so much less attack-animation-lag that they can throw out a dash or smash attack and shield before my LK/whatever hits them, but the opposite is definitely not true. So I play defensively with fireballs and shielding, but get killed by their individual strengths, below.
First, I feel like I get punished for playing well against Diddy. Meaning:
1. I R-cancel tumbling falls and then get picked up by his dash attack and carried off-stage for an up-B spike, forward-air, or forward-smash. When I shield or roll (I mean R+left/right, dunno the correct term) the same thing happens (so Diddy's dash attack has a shield spike?) and I can't get away from it.
2. Down-air seems useless against his up-B recovery, and leads to me getting hit. Edge-guarding it feels impossible because of the way Diddy can go higher or lower, and longer or shorter once he reaches the stage. Shielding and grabbing worked once, but it's hard to get in position for.
3. He's unaffected by his own bananas, but I'm not. Picking up a banana seems to just waste time because he can side-B over them or re-pick them up faster than I can get to him.
Then, Squirtle is so tough for me as Zelda I started thinking he was top-tier until I beat him as Ivysaur.
1. I can almost never grab him and can't up-smash him or even forward-smash him because he's so short, taking away one my more consistent kill/combo setups. As with every small character it's hard to connect with LKs.
2. His side-B has too much armor to break without a perfectly timed NL or LK, or exploding DF if I have one placed already. but I usually don't because it also covers distance very quickly, sets up combos, and makes it very hard to approach from the side.
3. I can't approach from above because of his up-smash.
4. I have no idea how to edge-guard his up-B.
I originally thought Kirby was Zelda's worst matchup before I faced Squirtle for these reasons:
1. He's not as short as Squirtle, so I can forward-smash him, but can't grab or up-smash or easily LK.
2. He is so fast that his weak attacks combo into each other before I can respond, and his strong ones (like side-B) kill the floaty Zelda. Plus they almost always come out before mine.
3. I'm not sure what to do about his down-throw-jab-cancel combo, if anything can be done. Rolling away from him sometimes works, but I dunno.
4. He can fly out far enough to get a side-B at the edge of the screen before I can finish my up-B animation, and using up-B any earlier means not reaching the ledge.
Ness doesn't seem as tough, but these stand out to me:
1. He's fast like Kirby, and seems like he can attack me as much as he wants unless I side-step counter-attack. And I'm not that good at side-stepping.
2. He can both absorb DF and approach at the same time with his aerial-down-B.
3. He can bait me to use NL with PK-Fire far enough away that the fire doesn't reach him, then run in and punish. Shielding PK-Fire makes escape slow (and I get punished for it), and I'm not practiced enough at side-stepping to dodge it often.
4. His Bair is as strong as LK and faster.
5. His Dair against grounded Zelda sets up for Bair. Eg. PK-fire - down-throw - Dair - Bair - PK Flash (while I'm still in hitstun) - death
Please help, even if it's just "get better at [X] and this won't happen." Is this in my head, or are these actually bad matchups? And most important: how can I overcome these problems?
Maybe the biggest thing for all 4 of these characters is that it feels like they're faster than Zelda. It seems like all of them both hit faster (i.e. if we smash attack at the same time theirs hits and mine doesn't), and have so much less attack-animation-lag that they can throw out a dash or smash attack and shield before my LK/whatever hits them, but the opposite is definitely not true. So I play defensively with fireballs and shielding, but get killed by their individual strengths, below.
First, I feel like I get punished for playing well against Diddy. Meaning:
1. I R-cancel tumbling falls and then get picked up by his dash attack and carried off-stage for an up-B spike, forward-air, or forward-smash. When I shield or roll (I mean R+left/right, dunno the correct term) the same thing happens (so Diddy's dash attack has a shield spike?) and I can't get away from it.
2. Down-air seems useless against his up-B recovery, and leads to me getting hit. Edge-guarding it feels impossible because of the way Diddy can go higher or lower, and longer or shorter once he reaches the stage. Shielding and grabbing worked once, but it's hard to get in position for.
3. He's unaffected by his own bananas, but I'm not. Picking up a banana seems to just waste time because he can side-B over them or re-pick them up faster than I can get to him.
Then, Squirtle is so tough for me as Zelda I started thinking he was top-tier until I beat him as Ivysaur.
1. I can almost never grab him and can't up-smash him or even forward-smash him because he's so short, taking away one my more consistent kill/combo setups. As with every small character it's hard to connect with LKs.
2. His side-B has too much armor to break without a perfectly timed NL or LK, or exploding DF if I have one placed already. but I usually don't because it also covers distance very quickly, sets up combos, and makes it very hard to approach from the side.
3. I can't approach from above because of his up-smash.
4. I have no idea how to edge-guard his up-B.
I originally thought Kirby was Zelda's worst matchup before I faced Squirtle for these reasons:
1. He's not as short as Squirtle, so I can forward-smash him, but can't grab or up-smash or easily LK.
2. He is so fast that his weak attacks combo into each other before I can respond, and his strong ones (like side-B) kill the floaty Zelda. Plus they almost always come out before mine.
3. I'm not sure what to do about his down-throw-jab-cancel combo, if anything can be done. Rolling away from him sometimes works, but I dunno.
4. He can fly out far enough to get a side-B at the edge of the screen before I can finish my up-B animation, and using up-B any earlier means not reaching the ledge.
Ness doesn't seem as tough, but these stand out to me:
1. He's fast like Kirby, and seems like he can attack me as much as he wants unless I side-step counter-attack. And I'm not that good at side-stepping.
2. He can both absorb DF and approach at the same time with his aerial-down-B.
3. He can bait me to use NL with PK-Fire far enough away that the fire doesn't reach him, then run in and punish. Shielding PK-Fire makes escape slow (and I get punished for it), and I'm not practiced enough at side-stepping to dodge it often.
4. His Bair is as strong as LK and faster.
5. His Dair against grounded Zelda sets up for Bair. Eg. PK-fire - down-throw - Dair - Bair - PK Flash (while I'm still in hitstun) - death
Please help, even if it's just "get better at [X] and this won't happen." Is this in my head, or are these actually bad matchups? And most important: how can I overcome these problems?