Help me against this Game and Watch Style

[darkNES386]

Give me your worst folks. This match is old, but I honestly still have no clue what I could have done differently... perhaps retreat with B-reversals after he commits... maybe more empty short hops... less stupid choices obviously... clearly you can't beat a smart Game and Watch in the air... but he has to come down at some point

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AixRN5Lbm_I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk0Ndc0zu04 <--might not be up yet

 

[Tenki]

That game and watch does not know how to play against Sonic...

conversely it can almost be said of you in this match :[


I'll edit this as I go along, but
until 1:18 - you try to spindash too much, even if you're too close.

Every single one of your approaches was a spindash o_O;
He either hit you as your were charging, or hit you straight out of it. That's no good.

Ending:

well, that's something I didn't know lol.
charging, even if incomplete, still locks your double jump data.

`.`;

overall:
In the first stock, I think you tried to invinc-frame him too much.

If he's facing towards you, be ready to punish F-air.

If he's facing backwards, run away or if you're a master at it, either get hit+SDI or shield it and spotdodge the last few hits.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

How does Sonic punish the turtle, anyway?

 

[Tenki]

How does Sonic punish the turtle, anyway?

Dash attack or HA might work. Spaced B-airs can work too.
Reverse stutterstep can punish approaching (non-retreated) turtles

 

[darkNES386]

The fact remains that every attack of mine was virtually stopped. Today if we played, I don't think I could "break" his "wall"

His spacing his ridiculous, sometimes he fully commits other times he backs up when he sees he is out of position

I totally john with the pauses :/ ... it was frustrating and still is to watch.

 

[Tenki]

The fact remains that every spindash* of mine was virtually stopped. Today if we played, I don't think I could "break" his "wall"

His spacing his ridiculous, sometimes he fully commits other times he backs up when he sees he is out of position

I totally john with the pauses :/ ... it was frustrating and still is to watch.

fixed.

:/ you totally did better when you stopped spindashing in the second stock. You were a bit predictable with the kill move and that cost you the chance to kill him. I'll re-watch again x.x;

 

[darkNES386]

i added a second vid (in case you didn't see that)

 

[Tenki]

Ah, I didn't see it at the time of my previous posts

It looked like there was a ton of matchup ... not...knowledge?

Well, it was the summer and all, but yeah.

Overall (both vids), aside from over-commitment to trying to spindash, some of your spindash punishment choices (side-B instead of down-B in mid-range, for example) were off, and the timing on release was off too.

I guess if you played him now, try walking away and see if he approaches.

He tends to attack you out of your charges, so you might want to side-B with the intent of shielding his approach or rolling, instead of trying to go for invincy frames.

Dash attack can also double as an alternate punisher move. If you're nearby, D-tilt might work better for ya.

Learn the range/reach of his attacks - there were a bunch of moves that you thought you were able to attack around, but were actually covered. If you think you'll miss a full U-air, use N-air to end a spindash combo instead.

 

[infernohit]

Hey, that's me!

 

[infomon]

well, that's something I didn't know lol.
charging, even if incomplete, still locks your double jump data.

True except for the first few frames of charging. Once you get the aura it's locked, but side-B and down-B both have those start-up frames where it's safe. So sometimes it seems inconsistent when you're charging just before landing, like if you're doing repeated VSDJ's or smthg.

 

[darkNES386]

Walking, dash attacks... alright. More tilts possibly? How does Sonic's tilts work against an aerial rushing game and watch?

I guess I could spin dash > shield cancel and if the turtle comes out then I can roll or something since I don't want that eating my shield.

I'll try the SS if the turtles come out more often as you suggested.

He just keeps constant pressure and like I said, he mixes up the spacing of the aerials so well that when you think you have an option it's suddenly no longer there cause while it may have worked against the last string of attacks, this one is different.

I've transitioned from a uair to fair out of most of my spin combos since it's easier to connect. If I'm against a larger character and I plan to follow it up with a second uair out of the jump if I think that has a chance.

Yeah... I still don't understand what happened on my last stock. I couldn't jump cancel cause there was too much charge?

 

[infomon]

Yeah... I still don't understand what happened on my last stock. I couldn't jump cancel cause there was too much charge?

I'm glad you brought this up. I noticed that and re-watched it a lot of times to figure out what happened. I'm glad I did, because I learned something!! The answer is quite tricky!

We're talking about the death of your last stock in that first match on Final Destination, correct?

Both down-B and side-B have start-up lag frames; the time before Sonic can possibly get an aura, ie. the ability to release a spindash. If you land on a platform during those start-up frames, your spindash jump data gets restored. But anytime after those start-up frames but during the spindash, landing on the ground does not restore the jump data. This includes SDR, shield-cancelling ASC, an aerial screech-stop from ASC or SD; or, it turns out, even the ending lag frames from an empty ASC, whether or not it ever had a charge.

Watch the end of that last stock carefully. At one point you're hanging on the right ledge. You drop and quickly 2nd-jump towards the stage, and during the jump you do an empty ASC. A quick tap of down-B, it never even gets a charge. You got screwed by the worst possible timing; you just barely land as Sonic's coming out of the ball, but this counts as having landed during the spindash, and so your spindash jump-data doesn't get restored.

Then you hang out on the ground for a while, fighting. But notice you don't get hit! If you had so much as jumped, walked off the edge of the stage, or been hit by an attack, then the spindash jump-data would have been restored. But you just walked around, and eventually use a grounded SC. Which still remembered that you can't jump out of a spindash.

It's pretty messed up -- if you had started that empty spincharge a teensy bit later in that last jump towards the stage, it could have landed in the start-up lag frames, and you would've been fine. And with an empty never-gets-an-aura ASC, you can't really tell if you're safe when you land, aside from having good intuition about the timing window that separates the startup-lag from the ending-lag.

I hope that makes sense! I still can't believe your bad luck.... I'm getting myself into the habit of SHFF'ing after (or sometimes before) a spindash, just to be absolutely certain I can jump-cancel it.

Stupid Sakurai

 

[Jim Morrison]

I'm glad you brought this up. I noticed that and re-watched it a lot of times to figure out what happened. I'm glad I did, because I learned something!! The answer is quite tricky!

We're talking about the death of your last stock in that first match on Final Destination, correct?

Both down-B and side-B have start-up lag frames; the time before Sonic can possibly get an aura, ie. the ability to release a spindash. If you land on a platform during those start-up frames, your spindash jump data gets restored. But anytime after those start-up frames but during the spindash, landing on the ground does not restore the jump data. This includes SDR, shield-cancelling ASC, an aerial screech-stop from ASC or SD; or, it turns out, even the ending lag frames from an empty ASC, whether or not it ever had a charge.

Watch the end of that last stock carefully. At one point you're hanging on the right ledge. You drop and quickly 2nd-jump towards the stage, and during the jump you do an empty ASC. A quick tap of down-B, it never even gets a charge. You got screwed by the worst possible timing; you just barely land as Sonic's coming out of the ball, but this counts as having landed during the spindash, and so your spindash jump-data doesn't get restored.

Then you hang out on the ground for a while, fighting. But notice you don't get hit! If you had so much as jumped, walked off the edge of the stage, or been hit by an attack, then the spindash jump-data would have been restored. But you just walked around, and eventually use a grounded SC. Which still remembered that you can't jump out of a spindash.

It's pretty messed up -- if you had started that empty spincharge a teensy bit later in that last jump towards the stage, it could have landed in the start-up lag frames, and you would've been fine. And with an empty never-gets-an-aura ASC, you can't really tell if you're safe when you land, aside from having good intuition about the timing window that separates the startup-lag from the ending-lag.

I hope that makes sense! I still can't believe your bad luck.... I'm getting myself into the habit of SHFF'ing after (or sometimes before) a spindash, just to be absolutely certain I can jump-cancel it.

Stupid Sakurai

You are my master

 

[darkNES386]

Wow..... that sucks for me. I was really puzzled. I remember telling inferno that I didn't think that was supposed to happen.