Help me with Snake...please?

[Hylian]

Hey guys. MLG dallas is in a few days and I've been practicing for it etc etc. My worst match-up is Snake. I just have a history of losing to them and I really want to get past that and be prepared for every match-up at MLG Dallas. I've been practicing CGing snake a ton, and I'm going to pretty much all day today as well. I've watched a lot of videos, Kakera vs snakes, Meep vs Ally, Lain vs Ally, Swordgard vs Ally, and my videos.

Here is my most recent loss to a snake in tournament:
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/X31RT-N2KJc?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/X31RT-N2KJc?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

I want all the tips I can get. I don't care if I already know the stuff or who gives me tips or if you are good or bad etc, input from everyone is greatly appreciated. Critique the match or just tips in general, or both! I would love help from you guys <3.

I really want to place top 8 at MLG dallas and it's not going to be easy at all but I'm preparing the best I can. Thanks for your help if you decide to do so.

 

[Smoom77]

Social thread or QA. nub













LOL I will watch the video and edit my post

 

[Roller]

I have to go pika for the mu myself, but Lain put on a tutorial of how to beat Snake vs MI's top snake in a tourney this past weekend's Winners/Grand finals.

WFs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqFl0NO4uzU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt8gEpDHOHQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0AJBP3MyGA

GFs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuqGaf0PFQQ

(these are all the games he went ICs.) Might be a few things in these that could help..

 

[ch33s3]

I watched that set a while ago, but I'll just throw some stuff out there for now, and if you want more, I'll edit later when I'm home from school.

You let Nana get hit by a ton of explosives, which is pretty much the biggest fault in almost all ICs' games against snake. That means that when Snake does eventually land a real hit on you, she's going to fly further and die/get gimped/whatever bad things. When I play the matchup, I focus more on not getting hit, than actually worrying about beating Snake. When you do this, eventually opportunities will come.

Don't always try and punish with grab, especially if there are explosives about. Jab is a great punish for most of Snake's lags, and at low percents, it actually links into grab if you buffer a dash grab.

If you happen to be in the air at snake's back while he's holding a nade (this happens more than you might think), land with nair, it knocks the nade out of his hand without detonating it, and you can buffer dash grab on landing and actually catch him at low percents (this is guaranteed at certain percents and close to it at others, I usually go for it). If you're not completely confident in your CG away from nades, dont be afraid to just uthrow and uair, then try and juggle, you don't always need to 0-death.

If Snake is trying to camp you, camp him back! You SHOULD be able to outcamp nades with ice blocks (though this takes practice). Depending on how you hit the nade with your block, it should either stop dead, or detonate harmlessly away from you. If nades start to get in on you, throw them back.

Synched blizzard is AMAZING for pressuring Snake. If he's holding a nade, or has one at his feet, time your blizzard so it is still active when the nade detonates, he wont be able to pick it up and throw it at you, because blizzard would hit him, so he'll be forced to eat a shield poke from blizzard AND nade damage (or have his shield popped if it holds, which is even better).

DSG his ftilt. Utilt isn't that scary, if he lands it at low %, you get a free dair or nair, maybe sometimes bair (depending on how good your SDI is). If you get him offstage and low (from a nana fair at the edge, usually), follow him down and footstool his jump or c4, it wrecks him completely, and then you can upb back to the ledge and drop nair if he's still alive, which just might push him under the stage where he can't recover without more C4 shenanigans.

Let him hurt himself, put Snake in spots where his choices are "get grabbed" and "blow myself up". It makes it immensely easier on you when you don't have to do all the damage to him yourself.

Use squall intelligently, go OVER his nades and through his shield to safety, you might shield poke, you might force him to eat a nade, or you might be safe. All of those are fantastic

Overall, concentrate on not dying, Snake's stocks will come off eventually.

EDIT: A couple more things I noticed: You put yourself in aerial lag near snake a lot...bad idea. You also don't platform cancel, which could have gotten you at least two grabs in that game on SV that I noticed.

 

[Hylian]

Thanks.

I've noticed in pretty much every video I've watched of Snake vs IC's the IC player loses because they drop grabs as well as the other things you've pointed out. Literally every single video I've watched the IC player will drop at least one grab, it's really depressing :/. I've been practicing a ton on snake today, even going to RC and practicing CG's there because it forces me to be creative to keep the CG going.

 

[napZzz]

full hop ice blocks work well against snake, and so does blizzard on the ground if you think he's going to attempt a tilt/pull a nade and you're in safe distance, he cant really jump over it and it halts his ground game badly

just be patient...very very patient and try to abuse snake when he's in the air and DONT DROP CG'S

 

[Smoom77]

Here are some pointers.

-stop dash grabbing/shield grabbing. Good snakes will predict you and pivot grab.
-don't dash attack unless you know you won't get hit by a mortar lol.
-don't FH uair him when he's on a platform. Easy uptilt. SH.
-to pressure him, space your self with dashes so he can't hit you with ftilt, but if he tries, pivot grab.
-never do full hop or DJ IBs. He can dacus and hit you easily.
-I saw you blizzard from far away trying to do a shield drop desync and ended up hitting a made. Don't do that lol.
-don't do belay that often. ;-; it's ok but it's risky.
-blizzard can be good at close range. Do that more.
-use squall more. If you hover it right, you won't blow up the grenade and you could possibly shield poke him at the top of his shield.

Btw I didn't steal anything from cheese's post lol.

 

[ch33s3]

Thanks.

I've noticed in pretty much every video I've watched of Snake vs IC's the IC player loses because they drop grabs as well as the other things you've pointed out. Literally every single video I've watched the IC player will drop at least one grab, it's really depressing :/. I've been practicing a ton on snake today, even going to RC and practicing CG's there because it forces me to be creative to keep the CG going.

Snake is simply difficult to CG, I've sort of just accepted it and take what I can get from grabs and concentrate on using to end stocks, rather than take the entire stock.

See you in Dallas I suppose (if I ever find a place to stay, lol).

 

[Smoom77]

Snake is simply difficult to CG, I've sort of just accepted it and take what I can get from grabs and concentrate on using to end stocks, rather than take the entire stock.

See you in Dallas I suppose (if I ever find a place to stay, lol).

I disagree. Try harder. I can consistantly Bthrow dthrow Snake. It took me a long time but I did it.

TRY HARDER!!!

 

[kackamee]

Remember. Take what % you can get. Don't be greedy. If you get a hit that does 2% take it. Don't go for the unsafe combo that might get you an extra 10%

Good luck mah friend.

 

[DeLux]

I disagree. Try harder. I can consistantly Bthrow dthrow Snake. It took me a long time but I did it.

TRY HARDER!!!

I have a lot of frame testing to do to verify if this is true, but last time I chatted with EA, he mentioned that snake was one of the characters that requires 1 (or 2 depending how you view it) frames of accuracy to regrab when CGing.

 

[Smoom77]

Did I say it was easier?

NO!!!!!!!!

 

[Teh Future]

doesnt matter its hopeless

 

[Rubberbandman]

I have to go pika for the mu myself, but Lain put on a tutorial of how to beat Snake vs MI's top snake in a tourney this past weekend's Winners/Grand finals.

WFs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqFl0NO4uzU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt8gEpDHOHQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0AJBP3MyGA

GFs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuqGaf0PFQQ

(these are all the games he went ICs.) Might be a few things in these that could help..

fuuuuu

This is what I hate about Midwest, you guys change channels every 5 ****ing minutes so I never know whats going on there.

 

[DeLux]

So back on that hard to CG nonsense, I'm relatively certain that Jigglypuff is the ONLY character where a bthrow from popo to nana has only one frame of execution window. The backthrow on snake might be difficult however, because the ingame mechanics will flip Nana around on frame ten, which means that you lose the two frame window to grab (nana faces the wrong way if you do it one frame early), but that's assuming you do a true soft turn. If you hard turn, it's still at least a two frame window, possibly three depending how low the percentages are and where you space the pivot grab on the hard turn.

 

[napZzz]

its been over 2 and a half years, you'd think by now ic's could learn how to not drop cg's...

 

[Teh Future]

id think youd learn to shield full hop ice blocks ***

 

[Teh Future]

So back on that hard to CG nonsense, I'm relatively certain that Jigglypuff is the ONLY character where a bthrow from popo to nana has only one frame of execution window. The backthrow on snake might be difficult however, because the ingame mechanics will flip Nana around on frame ten, which means that you lose the two frame window to grab (nana faces the wrong way if you do it one frame early), but that's assuming you do a true soft turn. If you hard turn, it's still at least a two frame window, possibly three depending how low the percentages are and where you space the pivot grab on the hard turn.

i dont even think this is true i dont find bthrow on jiggs hard at all if you position nana properly.

 

[DeLux]

I did my testing from a standstill. And from a standstill based on frame testing, I'm pretty sure it holds true. Although I agree, spacing would take a part in this.

So for future reference, even at high unmashable percentages, you need to do a buffer dthrow fthrow transfer to chain jiggz unless you're frame perfect.

 

[SuSa]

Quit johning about the CG being hard.

LiveYT Link > Youtube Link

Japan does it just fine. And they even throw away the grenades

 

[Hylian]

That was a really bad example susa lmao. He used dthrow fair which snake could have just teched, and we've known about throwing nades for awhile now.

The problem isn't nades it just that snake is heavy but has a thin frame so it's confusing visually to cg him compared to other heavy characters.

 

[SuSa]

It was partly to having related vids and partly to show the dthrow-->fthrow CG which 9B seems to do rather consistently.

He also does footstools, you can't tech footstools last I checked. If he was using fairs then I must've linked to the wrong 9B video. :x

EDIT:
Realized I use my friends liveyt to link, so there aren't any related vids. WOOPS. :x

 

[Rubberbandman]

Quit johning about the CG being hard.

LiveYT Link > Youtube Link

Japan does it just fine. And they even throw away the grenades

Tay tay you cant say **** until you've done it yourself. People act like its so easy. Get back to us when you perfect Cg heavies.

 

[SuSa]

Tay tay you cant say **** until you've done it yourself. People act like its so easy. Get back to us when you perfect Cg heavies.

*looks at my CG'ing DDD just fine after 11 months of not even playing this game*

No johns. I also stated Japan does it just fine. As in

Japan's TOP ICE CLIMBERS (read: Japan not me) can do it just fine.
If Japan can do it so can we.

 

[Omni]

Hylian, talk with Meep if you get the chance. He's ridiculous against Snake.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Hylian, talk with Meep if you get the chance. He's ridiculous against Snake.

Meep doesn't answer on AIM, thats hopeless, just pray for him to namesearch.

*looks at my CG'ing DDD just fine after 11 months of not even playing this game*

No johns. I also stated Japan does it just fine. As in

Japan's TOP ICE CLIMBERS (read: Japan not me) can do it just fine.
If Japan can do it so can we.

D3 =/= Snake

And we? Who's we? You aren't apart of 'we'.

 

[SuSa]

And we? Who's we? You aren't apart of 'we'.

So now I'm not an American?

Good **** man.

You also said:

Get back to us when you perfect Cg heavies.

Last I checked DDD is a heavy. Whether or not he is Snake is irrelevant to what you stated.

 

[swordgard]

*looks at my CG'ing DDD just fine after 11 months of not even playing this game*

No johns. I also stated Japan does it just fine. As in

Japan's TOP ICE CLIMBERS (read: Japan not me) can do it just fine.
If Japan can do it so can we.

He actually messes up a couple of times, and so does he in many of his other vids
-.-

Also d3 is alot easier than snake lol. Fthrow>Fthrow has a HUGE window, dthrow time for error correction with solo cg at any % under like 70% >.>

 

[napZzz]

ic's should practice more, eventually it should just become muscle memory

and practice your cg's before/during tourneys...shiyut

 

[SuSa]

He actually messes up a couple of times, and so does he in many of his other vids
-.-

Also d3 is alot easier than snake lol. Fthrow>Fthrow has a HUGE window, dthrow time for error correction with solo cg at any % under like 70% >.>

All the 9B vids I watched he dropped probably 3 grabs tops (not per game)? One wasn't even much is fault, seeing as Nana was too far away to begin with.

Also I still find lightweights harder than heavyweights.

ALSO a 1-2 frame window is plenty of time to get an input (especially one so simple as IC's CG) down. There are many 1 frame window combos in other games and those don't have buffering (and I'm assuming the 1-2 frame window of CG's can't be buffered)

So I repeat.

No.
****ing.
Johns

<3 you guys

eventually it should just become muscle memory

I'm willing to bet all the top IC's go a lot off muscle memory, considering it's entirely how I CG. I'm going to hope that the people who actually use the character practice more than I have.

 

[swordgard]

ic's should practice more, eventually it should just become muscle memory

and practice your cg's before/during tourneys...shiyut

Ok please, go and learn muscle memory for all cgs between 28 and 48 for bthrow followed by all from 35 to 60 on dthrow while remembering the exact frame for each character even if you know the timing for each frame perfectly. All which need to be repeated upwards of 10 times in a row without messing up once. Every time. Muscle memory probably can't even differentiate the difference between Falco and Fox, but due to its inacurracy might get you to drop it with the 1 frame difference.


Muscle memory can't do that. Nor can your average memory remember the exact frame for each.



So yeah...


Susa, most game comboes don't have to be repeated 10+ times in a row.

 

[Rubberbandman]

If Cg's were so ****ing perfect, then every IC would soft turn Snake infinitely. Seriously. Infinitely. To the point of time outs. But hey, muscle memory can only take you SO far. If muscle memory was absolute to the point of computers, then yeah, we'd have no problems.

People over-estimate muscle memory.

 

[SuSa]

Infinitely. To the point of time outs.

You can only CG to 300% then it's considering stalling in nearly every single competitive ruleset.

My turn to be the smartass

 

[Rubberbandman]

My point being there is a human limit.

And we just discussed cging Snake the other day. You only have 1 frame to regrab him with a hard turn(aka the universal method).

So yeah.

 

[DeLux]

I edited that post. It's two frames. My bad

 

[Rubberbandman]

Then what is soft turn?

 

[DeLux]

All lies, it's three frames on a softturn.



Just in case there are any questions, The test was done assuming a 1 frame soft turn to initiate the bthrow. If you input grab on frames 10-12, you will successfully regrab snake on the bthrow. I tested this on percentages starting from 0 to the top of 300 because you can't stall in most rulesets. I also tested on varying staleness.

I did not test on different types of platforms and ramps. I also did not test varying levels of input for the softturn, which might affect spacing.

 

[Smoom77]

Are you serious? I have a 2 frame CG perfect?

 

[GimR]

Snake's one of my favorite match ups so let me help:

Mix up the following two grenade tactics:

1. insta-throw his grenades. This will force him to start cooking them. If he starts cooking them, run in on him and shield, this will make him scared and he'll probably roll or spot dodge making him blow himself up
   
2. shoot ice blocks to blow up grenades on the ground/grenades he just pulled(this adds pressure)

Don't focus on the chain grab, just let it come to you, focus on getting snake in the air(Mainly by blowing him up with his own grenades) and damaging him with u-air strings.

On battlefield, short hop n-air when he's on a platform, this almost always shield pokes and can lead to grab set ups when he slides off the platform

Almost every Snake telegraphs his DACUS, so when you know it's coming reverse grab.

• If the morter doesn't come out, chain grab him
  
• If it does come out, try and u-air it with Nana and d-throw with Popo so Nana can grab Snake as soon as she's done u-airing(You can also u-throw and hit the mortar with your hammer since it's easier to do and guarantees you don't get hit )

 

[toobusytocare]

we only get 1 frame on jiggs?

guess im good at getting it in that 1 frame then