Honestly, it seems that Smash has become a detterent to Nintendo

[GreenKirby]

Yeah it sounds weird, but here me out first.

The first Smash game was truly a celebration of Nintendo's history. By that I mean, the franchises would bring inspirations from their respective games to Smash Bros.

But as time went on, it became inversed. Smash Bros now define the franchises to the gamers.

For example, when Diddy Kong was announced for Brawl, it certified that he was main eventer to Nintendo fans. Which is good, but now since then, he's never going to be seen without his jetpack or peanut popgun because now they're considered essential parts to his character all because they were featured in a Smash Bros game. Of course, this also means that K.Rool wasn't the main villain of DKC: Returns because he wasn't playable in Brawl.

Another example is F-Zero. Three games in a row and Falcon is the only playable character. Sadly this doesn't "legitimize" the F-Zero franchise. Which is most likely there aren't any plans for a new F-Zero game

The reason we got Pikmin 3 was most likely because Olimar was playable and we had a Pikmin stage all in one game. Again compared to F-Zero still only having Falcon 3 games in a row.

This is also the reason why some people like whine about how Nintendo doesn't have new franchises. Apparently to them, the only franchises Nintendo have already have a playable rep in Smash. Which btw means it's over 20+. Then again, in and of itself, having 20 IPs isn't bad. However, Nintendo has more than 20 IPs already. In fact several IPs have bee around since 2001

Sure the larger franchises such as Mario and Zelda might be okay, but the smaller ones are suffering under Smash's already behemoth of a presence. So I can see how some people can be upset that their favorite franchise who isn't Mario/Zelda/Pokemon still aren't getting representation whatsoever. Fear of the franchise falling into irrelevance.

So thoughts? Agree? Disagree? Declare me literally insane?

 

[moneyfrenzy]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but what i dont agree with is when you single out certain things. Pikmin 3 was planned for the wii before smash was out, and after a ton of delays it finally came out. I agree with everything you said about diddy, but not K. rool. I think that retro tried to create a new race of villians instead of using the kremlings for the third game in a row. I agree about all of the smaller franchises that are not represented in smash, and having them not be in smash give them a bad reputation.

 

[Moon Monkey]

I agree to some degree, I mean look at Pit! He was totally reverse engineered.

But I don't really agree with the resoning behind F-Zero and King K. Rool's absence

 

[Dark Phazon]

Diddy was rocking jetpac and popguns in DK64 Thank Rare. The good Rare

I kinda hear what your saying though...poor metroid....

 

[Maricalistaro]

Disagree. Pretty much everything you mention is a big stretch.

King K Rool wasn't in DKCR because of Miyamoto. That has nothing to do with smash.

What you said about F-Zero doesn't make any sense.... How does captain falcon being the only playable character from F-Zero correlate to not having any more F-Zero games. The last 2 F-zero games Maximum Velocity and GP Legend were pretty big bombs.

How does Olimar being in smash correlate to the existence of Pikmin 3. Again I'm scratching my head here. What does that have to do with captain falcon and F-Zero?You're point isn't really clear here.

People are whining about the existence of new IP's because they want a marketable new mascot and not a new IP. Nintendo has been giving us tons of new IP's. What does the existence of smash have to do with new IP's. Again, I really struggle to see your point here.

Smaller franchises struggling have nothing to do with smash. It's all about marketing for each individual game. Every game developed is not meant to be a massive success. Some games are manufactured to appeal to a smaller subset of people. Smash is not the most popular franchise Nintendo has. Not by a long shot.

Basically every point you make is unclear. The success of smash and something else is not mutually exclusive.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I agree, but I feel that it's Nintendo's fault for not capitalizing on these opportunities and. Considering how they have been releasing games for the past decade they have been playing way too safe with their games. It is possible that since it's a different economy and developing is no longer dominated by Japanese designers that Nintendo can't afford to take huge risks with franchises, however, if smash is doing exactly what you are stating that it's doing, then interest in a newer franchise really shouldn't be a problem since they have a game to do it for them. Nintendo just needs to grow some balls.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Stupid Q...

Is Xenoblade 1st party? Well what devs iz it?

Is it?

 

[Double Helix]

Whether you are insane or not has little bearing on your post. Plus I am not qualified. Anyways, I see where you are coming from. Honestly, it may just boil down to what many gaming companies are boiling down to now....$$$$. As much as I hate to say it, I sometimes don't really know if Nintendo cares about Smash or not in terms of content. They obviously care enough to interest the players because player interest leads to money. I think that the people upset about their favorite franchise not getting representation are calling for it for the same reason we have discussions about whether L-cancelling or wavedashing or tripping or etc. should be included in Smash4. We love the game. The difference is, they want their favorite game to be represented in a game that has many fans already. Some people do not spend time looking up new games in their free time on the internet, so what a better way to give your favorite game some advertising than to put a character representative in a really fun party game?

I changed my mind...you must be insane. But those...those are the thoughts you asked for.

 

[Curmudgeon]

Basically, what Maricalistaro said. Also Pikmin 3 was in development since the gamecube era.

You're making facts out of your opinions.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Whether you are insane or not has little bearing on your post. Plus I am not qualified. Anyways, I see where you are coming from. Honestly, it may just boil down to what many gaming companies are boiling down to now....$$$$. As much as I hate to say it, I sometimes don't really know if Nintendo cares about Smash or not in terms of content. They obviously care enough to interest the players because player interest leads to money. I think that the people upset about their favorite franchise not getting representation are calling for it for the same reason we have discussions about whether L-cancelling or wavedashing or tripping or etc. should be included in Smash4. We love the game. The difference is, they want their favorite game to be represented in a game that has many fans already. Some people do not spend time looking up new games in their free time on the internet, so what a better way to give your favorite game some advertising than to put a character representative in a really fun party game?

I changed my mind...you must be insane. But those...those are the thoughts you asked for.

Hmmm good point expecially how there gonna be around the big shots.

Mario/Link

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

This is one of my biggest and most brought pet peeve with SSB-series. Good God, how it just polarizes the series and how it can just kill others because No-Main-Smash-Bros-Franchise = Not even known to most gamers and isn't very brought on people's minds.

And I can't even get started with fanbases and critic sites alike citing weird accusations and beliefs just because what Smash Bros has done to Nintendo: now F-Zero/Kid Icarus is more of a "mainstay" Nintendo-franchise than let's say, Punch-Out, despite KI not really being anymore in minds of Nintendo since 1992. And it seems like things aren't here to change and truly make Kid Icarus stay in the burn it was given in 2011.

And then there's the whole thing of franchises/IPs clinging to Smash Bros in order to be "reborn" because how much little attention Nintendo or their respective subsidiaries give to them (though it could be due budget and going for more well-selling products): Golden Sun, Custom Robo, Legendary Starfy, Advance Wars, Panel De Pon, etc.

So really, I can truly feel what you're meaning here. Sometimes it had made me go into ambitions to spread out more love on other series that aren't overly deterrent due Smash Bros and perhaps just hoping we'll see a Nintendo-celebration that isn't about V.I.Ps and "C-lists". (Hence certain fanfics I've written around...)


Pikmin 3 though was long in making, so it has nothing to do with SSB.

 

[greenluigiman2]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but what i dont agree with is when you single out certain things. Pikmin 3 was planned for the wii before smash was out, and after a ton of delays it finally came out. I agree with everything you said about diddy, but not K. rool. I think that retro tried to create a new race of villians instead of using the kremlings for the third game in a row. I agree about all of the smaller franchises that are not represented in smash, and having them not be in smash give them a bad reputation.

This.

Disagree. Pretty much everthing you mention is a big stretch.

King K Rool wasn't in DKCR because of Miyamoto. That has nothing to do with smash.

What you said about F-Zero doesn't make any sense.... How does captain falcon being the only playable character from F-Zero correlate to not having any more F-Zero games. The last 2 F-zero games Maximum Velocity and GP Legend were pretty big bombs.

How does Olimar being in smash correlate to the existance of Pikmin 3. Again I'm scratching my head here. What does that have to do with captain falcon and F-Zero?You're point isn't really clear here.

People are whining about the existance of new IP's because they want a marketable new mascot and not a new IP. Nintendo has been giving us tons of new IP's. What does the existance of smash have to do with new IP's. Again, I really struggle to see your point here.

Smaller franchises struggling have nothing to do with smash. It's all about marketing afor each individual game. Every game developed is not meant to be a massive success. Some games are manufactured to appeal to a smaller subset of people. Smash not the most popular franchise nintendo has. Not by a long shot.


Basically every point you make is unclear. The success of smash and something else is not mutually exclusive.

Also this. Smash has helped franchises like Kid Icarus, but it has never held back any franchises.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Marcalisto brought a lot of good points, but I still can't help feeling that people are kinda getting deterred by SSB and what kind of vision it seems to give out about Nintendo in certain ridiculous peaks.

I mean, I.S made now three games that revolved around Marth (somewhat in the same timeline + All Star-game...) and then there's people who expect KI to be now getting new games despite not much indications for so sometimes. Also lol KI is Sakurai's baby etc.

At the end, you can't really deny that Smash Bros has influenced a lot strongly on Nintendo and it's franchises. It seems to help others to sell so much more and sometimes hinders others due that. ( FE Starring Marth > Advance Wars )

Ah well though, weaklings are food- in this case the games not selling well in the market won't last forever.

 

[Double Helix]

This.


Also this. Smash has helped franchises like Kid Icarus, but it has never held back any franchises.

Smash held back Smash when Brawl was released. =P (I hope I did not cause unfixable damage to this thread by making a joke)

 

[Maricalistaro]

Stupid Q...

Is Xenoblade 1st party? Well what devs iz it?

Is it?

Yes and so is The Last Story. The Wonderful 101 is being payed for by Nintendo. Which means Nintendo owns it.....which means it is a new nintendo IP but I am sure people will do some goal post moving to make their arguments work.

Here is a bunch of new nintendo IP's since the year 2000.

1. Wario Ware
2. Eternal Darkness (People fail to realize nintendo owns it).
3. Golden Sun
4. Xenoblade
5. Pikmin
6. Baten Kaitos
7. Wii Sports (Yes it counts)
9. Pandora's Tower
10. Rythm Heaven
11. Elite Beat Agent/Ouendan
12. Soma Bringer
13. Steel Diver
14. Endless Ocean
15. Chibi Robo
16. Electroplankton
17. Drill Dozer
18. Disaster Day of Crisis
19. The Last Story
20. Odama
21. Meteos
22. Captain Rainbow
23. Zangeki no Reingleiv
24. Chosojo Mecha
25. Geist
26. Excite Bots
27. Brain Training
28. Nintendogs
29. FlingSmash
30. Tons of DL games like Pushmo and Dillon's Rolling Western
31. The Wonderful 101


I'm sure I forgot some of them.

For some reason none of this stuff counts. People are really just looking for marketable mascots. How many companies have created that many new IP since the year 2000. I'm guessing here but you can probably count them on one hand. If that.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Yes and so is The Last Story. The Wonderful 101 is being payed for by Nintendo. Which means Nintendo owns it.....which means it is a new nintendo IP but I am sure people will do some goal post moving to make their arguments work.

Here is a bunch of new nintendo IP's since the year 2000.

1. Wario Ware
2. Eternal Darkness (People fail to realize nintendo owns it).
3. Golden Sun
4. Xenoblade
5. Pikmin
6. Baten Kaitos
7. Wii Sports (Yes it counts)
9. Pandora's Tower
10. Rythm Heaven
11. Elite Beat Agent/Ouendan
12. Soma Bringer
13. Steel Diver
14. Endless Ocean
15. Chibi Robo
16. Electroplankton
17. Drill Dozer
18. Disaster Day of Crisis
19. The Last Story
20. Odama
21. Meteos
22. Captain Rainbow
23. Zangeki no Reingleiv
24. Chosojo Mecha
25. Geist
26. Excite Bots
27. Brain Training
28. Nintendogs
29. FlingSmash
30. Tons of DL games like Pushmo
31. The Wonderful 101

For some reason none of this stuff counts. People are really just looking for marketable mascots.

Cool this is something i was curious about..i wanted to know.

But ofc they are probly about 5 series out of all of those that are like...popular right?

Hehehe im not tryna step on anyones toes...i left Ninty in the Wii era so i dunno what went down.

Tryna see what new series were popular during brawl days and still are now or that may have a sequal in the works.

We could predict a new so called WTF char (we didnt see it coming)

Does this thread just boil down to ''Why isnt there or i want new IP's in Smash?''

I mean Villager is very deserving also WFT.

 

[Rodriguez5]

I don't know but this sounds clueless to me.

 

[Maricalistaro]

I don't know but this sounds clueless to me.

Yeah. TBH I am kind of struggling with the point the OP is trying to make. No to be rude or anything I just don't think it's very clear.

 

[fogbadge]

miyamoto has said that they made pikmin 3 because they wanted to, smash had nothing to do with it

 

[Double Helix]

Lol. All of those games. Don't some people want a smaller cast? How is that possible? I know! Just take out the mainstream characters that everyone loves. You know...Mario, Link, Fox, Marth, Kirby, and Donkey Kong. This will make the cast basically new if you took out characters from those series and replaced them with some of the 31 mentioned games XD

 

[Double Helix]

Edit: crappy school internet causing double posts.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

K.Rool and the Kremling's absence in DK Country Returns has nothing to do with his absence in Brawl. He appeared in Mario Super Sluggers and as well as other DK games prior to Brawl, they simply decided to make a new group of villains.

Also, Pikmin 3 was planned and in development long before Brawl.

 

[Dark Phazon]

K.Rool and the Kremling's absence in DK Country Returns has nothing to do with his absence in Brawl. He appeared in Mario Super Sluggers and as well as other DK games prior to Brawl, they simply decided to make a new group of villains.

Also, Pikmin 3 was planned and in development long before Brawl.

Love your sig thing.

Fawful is awsome lmfaoo most probaly the #1 most hilarious nintendo char.

*I HAVE CHORTLES*

LOOOL.

Respect.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Ridley got his "drag along wall" attack in Other M from Brawl, Captain Falcon got his star status from it too, and heck it might be the reason Fox got some ground game in the Star Fox games too, but other than that I don't see much.

Pikmin was successful enough that a third installment in the franchise was inevitable at some point, plus I believe some people talked about how Olimar was Miyamoto's favorite of his own characters. Just look at Mother too, despite its current inclusion in Smash Bros Shigesato Itoi has stated that there won't be anymore games in the franchise since he always wanted it to be a trilogy.

I think that Smash Bros gives ideas to developers and enhances some already established mechanics' inclusions into their own games, like Diddy's Jetpack, but it doesn't force anything unto any developers, it just sparks the imagination for other developers, which is only a good thing. It doesn't make smaller IPs suffer either, if the IPs would have been successful they would have earned a spot in Smash Bros, but just because a franchise isn't part of Smash Bros doesn't mean it suffers, it still has to earn its way up just like all of the Smash Bros franchises did to begin with, which is a tougher road in today's gaming world than it was back when new concepts were easier to pull off.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Disagree. Pretty much everything you mention is a big stretch.

King K Rool wasn't in DKCR because of Miyamoto. That has nothing to do with smash.

What you said about F-Zero doesn't make any sense.... How does captain falcon being the only playable character from F-Zero correlate to not having any more F-Zero games. The last 2 F-zero games Maximum Velocity and GP Legend were pretty big bombs.

How does Olimar being in smash correlate to the existence of Pikmin 3. Again I'm scratching my head here. What does that have to do with captain falcon and F-Zero?You're point isn't really clear here.

People are whining about the existence of new IP's because they want a marketable new mascot and not a new IP. Nintendo has been giving us tons of new IP's. What does the existence of smash have to do with new IP's. Again, I really struggle to see your point here.

Smaller franchises struggling have nothing to do with smash. It's all about marketing for each individual game. Every game developed is not meant to be a massive success. Some games are manufactured to appeal to a smaller subset of people. Smash is not the most popular franchise Nintendo has. Not by a long shot.

Basically every point you make is unclear. The success of smash and something else is not mutually exclusive.

This. Smash has had a big impact on Nintendo, sure, but in your statements you've bumped it up to conspiracy theory levels. DKCR was the way it was to differentiate it from the RARE DKC games, F-Zero sold poorly and Miyamoto has a not so subtle bias against it, supposedly Pikmin 3 was originally thought up for the GBA, etc. As others have shown, there's a lot of evidence that points to the exact opposite of what you argue.

 

[Double Helix]

Love your sig thing.

Fawful is awsome lmfaoo most probaly the #1 most hilarious nintendo char.

*I HAVE CHORTLES*

LOOOL.

Respect.

You must be a fink rat

 

[Zzuxon]

Mmmhh yeah no.

 

[Ulevo]

The entire premise of this opening post is based on a wide array of big assumptions that can't be proven. You don't know why design decisions are made the way they are, at least not without exclusive developer insight and commentary.

 

[DakotaBonez]

As has already been said, it's been pretty much confirmed that alot of the character's traits in smash were defined by their already established games or animated appearances, or by their creator's original vision.
But there are undoubtedly a few that were brought about from smash, whether as a necessity to fill a niche in the gameplay aspect or thanks to Sakurai's take on the characters.
It's hard to pin down what influences turned Captain Falcon out the way he is now.

I have high hopes that the next smash will bring nintendo's new ips into the light.
Although I don't care so much for the Villager... I hope that Miss Fit, Chibi Robo, Jill, Shulk and maybe even the newer spunkier Little Mac and the forgotten balloon fighter and samurai Takamaru will get a chance to shine in the next smash and have their character fully fleshed out.


Wait I don't get the point of this thread. What're we aggreeing or debating on?
All you did was make a statement.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

You must be a fink rat

Do not call him a fink rat or he will become the mustard of your doom!

 

[SKM_NeoN]

Interesting observation. I appreciate the outlier, pseudo-devil's-advocate idea of you're thread, even if I disagree with most points. In particular:

Another example is F-Zero. Three games in a row and Falcon is the only playable character. Sadly this doesn't "legitimize" the F-Zero franchise. Which is most likely there aren't any plans for a new F-Zero game

On the contrary, Smash Bros. made F-Zero (especially Captain Falcon) more legitimate than it ever would be on its own merits. The lack of character representation is more due to F-Zero just having, well, uninspired characters outside of its protagonist. Smash Bros. created a bigger demand for F-Zero, the reason we aren't getting a new one is because Nintendo is being Nintendo.

 

[BKupa666]

Okay, based on your argument and terminology used in making it, you definitely listen to The Kongversation, which makes you awesome in my book.

I don't know if Smash necessarily sets the course for the entire rest of the generation, since, as others have suggested, Pikmin 3 was in development long before Smash, and Uprising was Sakurai's choice. However, its influence is undeniable, and I don't know why others are disagreeing with you so strongly on that front; I wouldn't be surprised if Olimar's role in Brawl kept him in Pikmin 3, nor would I be surprised if, say, Brawl was why Meta Knight and Dedede were playable in Return to Dreamland. Your DK example certainly stands, since not only does Diddy now use his popgun and jetpack in a game Retro explicitly said they didn't look to DK64 while developing, Donkey Kong uses his Smash animation for ground-pounding rather than his classic one, and also uses his Banana Slamma Giant Punch on the moon. And let's not forget Marth and Roy appearing in Melee, which single-handedly brought Fire Emblem overseas years ago. Notice, this influence does not extend beyond Smash's playable characters, but to be fair, that's a large, large part of what excites people about Smash to begin with.

Smash does legitimize characters in it because, regardless of who or what they are, people gravitate toward them because of their 'charm'; we've seen it happen with everything from popular characters like Wario and Diddy, to controversial choices like ROB and Wii Fit Trainer. What's more, regardless of how they act in their home series or whether they're present there, people who don't play those series gain impressions of them through Smash. This is why K. Rool would have been in Returns had he been in Brawl; Retro can't ask 'does he need to come back?' and be taken half-seriously if Smash has endeared him to such a large audience. This is why, as Sean has discussed on DKVine, Captain Falcon brings attention to himself, but not F-Zero, because of FALCON PUNCH, which is only present in Smash.

I'm curious to see whether this effect will continue as strongly with this game, since unlike with Brawl, our expectations are rather tempered and hype isn't through the roof just yet. It may diminish, stay the same, or grow even stronger...we'll just have to wait and see which it is.

 

[Double Helix]

I really don't really know if the DK references have merit or not because I don't know how many characters belonged to Rare. The reason the rest of the Kong family was not in that game was because Rare owned them, and if they own K. Rool then that is a pretty good reason for Nintendo to not put him in their games. It's influence over ALL of these things is very deniable. There is a reason to believe that it is true, but it is giant speculation based on observation, not facts. Characters moves change animation with time. There is no reason that DK should use an old animation with ridiculously better graphics.

I will concede that Marth and Roy caused a franchise to come to America, but might I ask, how many people are going to buy Smash for a Wii Fit Trainer when many mothers who bought that don't look for games. I know many GAMERS who still do not know the significance of ROB. Some of these characters are just picked because they either made a lot of money, or they are actually a face of Nintendo (in a character sense).

Look. What you are saying is not impossible, but it is highly improbable. Most is mere speculation.

 

[Deleted member]

Only thing I'm going to say in this topic is in context of correcting Maricalistaro's statement about K. Rool and Miyamoto.

Miyamoto never said to leave out the Kremlings or K. Rool.
It was Retro Studio's decision because they didn't just want to ride on Rare's coattails and instead do something fresh.

Where Miyamoto came into play is when he made sure that Retro included Cranky Kong, since they were just going to have DK and Diddy as the only returning Kongs.

 

[GreenKirby]

I really don't really know if the DK references have merit or not because I don't know how many characters belonged to Rare. The reason the rest of the Kong family was not in that game was because Rare owned them, and if they own K. Rool then that is a pretty good reason for Nintendo to not put him in their games. It's influence over ALL of these things is very deniable.

Nintendo owns every character who appears in a Donkey Kong game. Kremlings included

I will concede that Marth and Roy caused a franchise to come to America, but might I ask, how many people are going to buy Smash for a Wii Fit Trainer when many mothers who bought that don't look for games.

Opposite really. Now more gamers will buy Wii Fit because of Smash. At the very least, respect the series now.

Some of these characters are just picked because they either made a lot of money, or they are actually a face of Nintendo (in a character sense).

Kid Icarus wouldn't even be currently on the radar right now if it wasn't for Brawl.

And despite its success against all the odds, we're probably not going to be getting a Xenoblade references beyond a trophy or two

 

[Frostwraith]

Stupid Q...

Is Xenoblade 1st party? Well what devs iz it?

Is it?

Xenoblade was developed by Monolith Soft, a studio belonging to Nintendo, making the IP a Nintendo propriety.

 

[Deathconsciousness]

nintendo hasn't done anything of interest since smash bros. brawl, and before that, the game boy advance sp #shotsfired

tbh, i watched the new smash teaser trailer thing, and i was like "k" when it finished. im not hyped for some reason; probably because sasha grey couldn't suck my **** to sway me to buy a wii u or a 3ds.

 

[Fastblade5035]

tbh, i watched the new smash teaser trailer thing, and i was like "k" when it finished. im not hyped for some reason; probably because sasha grey couldn't suck my **** to sway me to buy a wii u or a 3ds.

 

[XenothiumX]

I think I get what you are saying, but it's not fully clear. Possibly because the examples you use to support your statement are a little far out. Now If you would have said something along the lines of... if it weren't for Pit's appearance in Brawl would we have not gotten Kid Icarus Uprising? ... then it would have been more clear to me.

I remember Diddy's jetpacks appeared from DK64, I never played DKC Returns so I'm wondering... Does Diddy get his jetpacks in DKC Returns?

I looked at your F-Zero Game link. It seems the reason we shouldn't be expecting a new F-Zero game is because Miyamoto can't figure out a way to reinvent the wheel (Miyamoto If you are reading this you should make F-Zero and online playable racing game and throw in a create a track builder while your at it!). I doubt any lack of inclusions of more F-Zero characters in smash is the reason we are not getting a new F-Zero.

Anyways, I do think there is somewhat of a "If [insert videogame character name here] didn't make it in to Smash then they are not important to Nintendo" type of mentallity amoung fans.

 

[Double Helix]

I still think that this is a terrible way to represent the important games to Nintendo. Their focus will always be Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Donkey Kong, Kirby, and Starfox. Other series will not be nearly as prominent. Even Pikmin. I think that this game dictates very little when it comes to what games are going to be released. Many new characters, or in the case of Pit, the reintroduction of characters, just get the fans asking for certain games. If the demand is high enough, they will supply it.