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Hot/Cold Marth Theory, (Error Magin ppl! Read OP)

phi1ny3

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Absolutely true at higher level of play, his offense is crippled by any decent defensive option so its important to react rather than initiate the majority of the times, of course there are always exceptions matchups/players etc.

For example let's take Marth's greatest offensive option, the almight Fair.

Examples of decent defensive options that can go toe to toe withMarth's fair = Huge grab range (D3), Snakes Ftilt (A Snake can do this if they expect a Fair from marth from a distance and you eat a Knee, its weird, it prolly has to do with the fact that you have to SH first THEN fair and snake just ftilt AKA frame count), Peach's fsmash (at least vs double SH fair) , and generally block grab assuming the player IS human and will commit a mistake sooner or later. Or if your NEO or something.

MK can Dsmash repeatedly safely. Snake can ftilt pretty safely. d3 can spot dodge over and over to a certain extent.

Marth can up-B over and ove- wait no. Fsmash-- no wait hold on. Dsmash-- uhh. Upsmash--"..."




Here's the problem with Marth and 'camping': It doesn't work (purely opinionated of course).

Why: Marth's Best options for range require a hop that puts in you in the air in order to use his Fair, which in turn means you can't block for that split second while you finish your fair. I'm fully aware that you can do the Fair as you land but then that means you're in danger before the fair is executed. Running and shielding cripples this option, especially dtilt. Lately dtilt has NOT been too hot for that reason. On the semi-'rare' (rare because I yet to know anyone that can do it at will to stay at 0% while avoiding grabs) occasions of power shielding cripples Marth's pathetic attempt to 'camp'.

Sure you can do retreating Fair to someone who tries to run and shield...try doing that to a Snake with long range ftilts.

I suppose a grab right away when running and shielding opponents get too obvious is the solution but again...that's a reactive response.

However, he can camp IC's =). Don't get grabbed right?

One good point in keeping someone at max range is when an opponent is holding his shield and you do get to push someone away with anything tippered.

Thank god we're all human and don't always play perfect.

Cheers.



Actually I started noticing a trend with Marth players, it may just be a bad habit though. Many Marth's land IN FRONT of their opponent, fairing. But it's not by choice, either you just 'land' or fair. So you get grabbed. What does this have to do with marth's mobility? It's predictable. Many Marth's are so used to fast falling everything that it makes their landing point obvious. Sure there's pivot B but that thing is nowhere near as useful as say Snake's B pivot.

Maybe we should start incorporating more stalls?

iono...



I don't think people know what they're getting into when they play with Marth. Superficially the character seems easy to play, just keep someone at max range, use your entire moveset etc etc. But sometimes that's not enough, it requires something else. I guess you could say 'mindgames' but that's not the only thing.

Sorry people I'm not trying to sound pessimistic about Marth or anything, just pointing out things about our beloved character.

Let's work together to do something about it.


EDIT: On the issue of gimping sometimes it feels like Marth can do it only half way. Play with MK or ROB to get what im talking about.
I agree, I'm just saying that his attributes aren't the result of a bad character design, just a different style of playing. You definitely have to think differently with marth than others.
I just don't agree with the posts that say that Marth's moveset means that you're relying on mindgames per se. I think that marth has good attributes that certainly make him a contender, but the fact that he has a very unforgivable linear game makes it so that obviously newer and less inexperienced players can't go full throttle with him immediately. But unlike some of the posts that have been said, I think that he certainly belongs in the place that he does in standings. I absolutely agree with how relatively inferior his options are vs. those higher than him, but that's why he's lower, amirite?
 

phi1ny3

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Yeah, I'd say that DK and lucario are prolly the most momentum based in play, but marth is also pretty good, though he has a better control game as well.
 

laki

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I find this Theory very interesting. I recently explained to a friend of mine that Marth is like certain control decks in magic.

He can be great but he's also hard to play correctly and he's very unforgiving to misplays, much more than other characters.

However, if you've "perfected" your play with him, he's prolly top three with meta and snake because he has so many good/close matchups that allow you to outplay your opponent.
 

Steel

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Actually our so-called advantageous 'matches' that are 60/40 aren't in fact correct, they're 50/50. Not all of them mind you but some of the ones we have listed as 60/40 are wrong. So you're right to say that marth doesn't have any 'terrible' matches but also as you stated is he straight up neutral.

stage counterpicks vs marth: brinstar, frigate orpheon, rainbow cruise, (kinda) jungle japes, (just the low of the ceiling in one part of the stage) halberd/corneria, all of these makes marth's weak return glare like a blonde among brunettes.
Uh, could you at least tell me which ones you have in mind?

@ Bengals

I played snakeee's zss a lot at cot4 and while he won all but like 1, i still don't think the match is even. He's a top level player but when I had my zoning and aggro set up effectively zamus cant really do anything. 55:45 i could consider though.

No wayyyy is sheik even, she has even less options than zss when being zoned. Key is to simply stay on her at a safe range, if you try to camp or her give her enough space you'll get *****. Dtilt destroys her

Dunno about diddy. All the diddy's i talked to (3 very good ones) at cot said marth is a cp for diddy. I suck at the match up too since i rarely play diddy's, but i watched neo handle it pretty easily and i think CK knows what to do in that match as well.
 

hippiedude92

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For 2-3 weeks now I've been on a losing streak completely, I def noticed on my emotional state. PRetty much broke 5-6 GC controllers. *yes anger management*. This is the def the guide for me; problem is that Idk how to control the emotions. Eh looks like i can't live up to my smash dream =/
 

Ulevo

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Skill of a player can overshadow a characters weakness. This holds true for Marth as well, but unfortunately not for everything. And this is mostly where Marth suffers in gameplay. Where other characters have an achilles heel or two that can be compensated with the right game play, tactics, intelligence, skill or style, Marth is left with disadvantages that are nearly unavoidable. Even when playing at the top of your game, it is easy to capitalize on these, and end your "perfect" streak.

It doesn't matter how "perfect" you play with him. You won't be able to remedy design flaw of having lag at the end of landing on stage once Dolphin Slash is used. You also can't give him kill moves that are safe, fast, nor reliable. It doesn't matter if you're good, because a player with even remotely the same skill level as you can abuse these traits and use them to win, and it isn't even difficult or require a character of a higher tier.

This is why I really don't believe Marth deserves his place in High Tier. He may not be poor in most areas of play, but he has no shining advantages or qualities any other High Tier character does that would balance his flaws. Dancing Blade is literally the best thing he has going for him, and that only goes so far.
 

Remzi

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@ Bengals

I played snakeee's zss a lot at cot4 and while he won all but like 1, i still don't think the match is even. He's a top level player but when I had my zoning and aggro set up effectively zamus cant really do anything. 55:45 i could consider though.

Getting at optimal range against ZSS is quite difficult because she is such an excellent spacer. And even when you are at close range, she isn't shut down. She has great options OoS and the fastest jab in the game. Not to mention that pesky dsmash.

No wayyyy is sheik even, she has even less options than zss when being zoned. Key is to simply stay on her at a safe range, if you try to camp or her give her enough space you'll get *****. Dtilt destroys her

Sheik has a great pressure game, an annoying projectile, and good speed. But other than that you're right. I really only brought this one up because I've heard a lot of other Marths say that they have trouble with it and I personally haven't played this one much.

Dunno about diddy. All the diddy's i talked to (3 very good ones) at cot said marth is a cp for diddy. I suck at the match up too since i rarely play diddy's, but i watched neo handle it pretty easily and i think CK knows what to do in that match as well.

Same thing here, I can't seem to handle him but other better Marths seem to take care of him just fine.
Comments in orange
 

Ulevo

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Comments in orange
Plasma Whip, Tazer Shot and DSmash are rather easy to get around. All it requires is for you to properly spot dodge, shield or perfect shield, and the strategy is essentially nullified. It's especially easy to do this because of the large start up time Plasma Whip has, and the time it takes for Tazer Shot to reach you. Getting in close is easier than you think. Even if they use these as retreating options, eventually they will run out of stage to space with.

And her OoS options are terrible by the way, I don't know exactly what you know about ZSS. Her Jab isn't the best either. She's vulnerable as soon as she executes it unless her opponent is aerial because you can pop a shield right in the middle of the combo after the second jab. It's rather unfortunate. Utilt is likely her best OoS option, and Flip Jump is alright for retreats.
 

Alterhalo

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I know i've been lurking for like the past 2 weeks but I really like this thread
I feel the same way about marth good **** havokk
 

laki

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Skill of a player can overshadow a characters weakness. This holds true for Marth as well, but unfortunately not for everything. And this is mostly where Marth suffers in gameplay. Where other characters have an achilles heel or two that can be compensated with the right game play, tactics, intelligence, skill or style, Marth is left with disadvantages that are nearly unavoidable. Even when playing at the top of your game, it is easy to capitalize on these, and end your "perfect" streak.

It doesn't matter how "perfect" you play with him. You won't be able to remedy design flaw of having lag at the end of landing on stage once Dolphin Slash is used. You also can't give him kill moves that are safe, fast, nor reliable. It doesn't matter if you're good, because a player with even remotely the same skill level as you can abuse these traits and use them to win, and it isn't even difficult or require a character of a higher tier..
Quickly tell me how marth can't be high tier with only like 4 or 5 bad matchups please.
 

legion598

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I find that this is another way that grabs will give u an advantage. Grabs and throws give u control over the opponent and therefore a psycological advantage which I think is amplified in marths case
 

Ulevo

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Quickly tell me how marth can't be high tier with only like 4 or 5 bad matchups please.
Four or five? Where are you throwing these numbers out from? I'm not going to bother arguing over something that is completely arbitrary.

But for the sake of the argument, assuming he in fact does have only four or five bad match ups, almost all of them (if not all of them) would presumably be other Top and High Tier characters. You know, the ones that are most popular in tournament and prevent Marth from progressing or winning consistently?

Marth isn't a bad character. He also isn't a fantastic character, or even a very good character. And I would know this better than your average Marth user. That seems to constitute "how he can't be high tier" quite well to me.
 

ChaosKnight

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no just no i havent seen you play marth in a while if you ever did..... you cant just say that marth is not a fantastic character honestly the only 3 that beats him is DDD MK AND Snake.....

he is a very good character
the rest hes even or has the slight advantage that makes him high tier ....
 

∫unk

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bengalsz and ulevo u guys don't know what ur talking about lol (ex. zss matchup)

Actually I started noticing a trend with Marth players, it may just be a bad habit though. Many Marth's land IN FRONT of their opponent, fairing. But it's not by choice, either you just 'land' or fair. So you get grabbed. What does this have to do with marth's mobility? It's predictable. Many Marth's are so used to fast falling everything that it makes their landing point obvious. Sure there's pivot B but that thing is nowhere near as useful as say Snake's B pivot.

Maybe we should start incorporating more stalls?

iono...
This more has to do with Marth being great at horizontal spacing but being absolutely terrible on vertical spacing because of his bad d-air.

Sure you can roll behind or cross over someone but what then? If you were spacing correctly horizontally you're barely going to go behind them which means they're inside your sword now so it's not like that position is great especially if the opponent is good they will be used to cross overs.

The two most important differences when mk plays someone on a competitive level as opposed to marth is if mk's f-airs f-tilt d-tilts aren't working he also has the option of spacing out d-airs above someone. He has good vertical spacing, in addition to having much safer kill moves.

Mixing up f-air timing with a db might actually be worth it just as a mix up and maybe making the cross over spacing better.

Actually our so-called advantageous 'matches' that are 60/40 aren't in fact correct, they're 50/50. Not all of them mind you but some of the ones we have listed as 60/40 are wrong. So you're right to say that marth doesn't have any 'terrible' matches but also as you stated is he straight up neutral.

stage counterpicks vs marth: brinstar, frigate orpheon, rainbow cruise, (kinda) jungle japes, (just the low of the ceiling in one part of the stage) halberd/corneria, all of these makes marth's weak return glare like a blonde among brunettes.
What are you talking about brinstar is like battlefield#2 you just have to learn how to use it :p

i'll go into more detail on aim or something if you want but seriously i've beaten some pretty good ppl on brinstar maybe it's just cause they weren't used to it
 

Ulevo

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no just no i havent seen you play marth in a while if you ever did.....
You've never seen me play Marth. And yes, I did. I really don't see how that is relevant.

you cant just say that marth is not a fantastic character honestly the only 3 that beats him is DDD MK AND Snake.....
And yet he isn't winning tournaments. How odd?

he is a very good character
the rest hes even or has the slight advantage that makes him high tier ....
Um... No. It doesn't. Are you even aware of what a character is judged on when being evaluated for a position on the tier list?


A tier list is an ordered list of the characters based on their competitive value in the current metagame. It basically shows which characters are currently doing well in tournaments.
As a character in a tournament setting, in terms of capability of performance and rank, Meta Knight, Snake, Falco, R.O.B., G&W, Diddy Kong, Wario, King Dedede, are all better than Marth. Arguably others.

I really don't care what your arbitrary opinion is, because I was openly expressing mine, not looking for a debate. But if you wish to, I suggest you do it with fact.
 

laki

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@ Ulevo who really has advantage on marth there D3, Snake, and Meta. Maybe Rob and Dk but I'm more inclined to say that those are neutrals.

And wtf at Rob, Diddy and G&W having more capability than Marth. Rob and Diddy have worse overall matchups and G&W does worse versus the higher tiers.

Marth 60/40s G&W Falco, Diddy, and might 65/35 Wario. I say he goes even with ROB. This means he only has to worry about D3 Meta and Snake and snake and D3 aren't even that bad. D3s 40/60 which is winnable and Snake is only 45/55 due to his lack of aerial mobility. Meta is Marths only HARD obstacle to deal with and even with Meta, Marth still does well in tourney.
 

illinialex24

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@ Ulevo who really has advantage on marth there D3, Snake, and Meta. Maybe Rob and Dk but I'm more inclined to say that those are neutrals.

And wtf at Rob, Diddy and G&W having more capability than Marth. Rob and Diddy have worse overall matchups and G&W does worse versus the higher tiers.

Marth 60/40s G&W Falco, Diddy, and might 65/35 Wario. I say he goes even with ROB. This means he only has to worry about D3 Meta and Snake and snake and D3 aren't even that bad. D3s 40/60 which is winnable and Snake is only 45/55 due to his lack of aerial mobility. Meta is Marths only HARD obstacle to deal with and even with Meta, Marth still does well in tourney.
Its not about these matchups. Take a look at who tournaments are overrun with: Metaknight and Snake, at least for the best players. Now who has good matchups on them. Marth is terrible on Metaknight so as long as he plays 1 good Metaknight in a tournament, which is almost certain, and he will lose.

he largely isnt winning tournaments because of meta knight
Exactly. All his other matchups are very manageable but beating a good Metaknight as Marth is very hard.
 

Ulevo

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@ Ulevo who really has advantage on marth there D3, Snake, and Meta. Maybe Rob and Dk but I'm more inclined to say that those are neutrals.

And wtf at Rob, Diddy and G&W having more capability than Marth. Rob and Diddy have worse overall matchups and G&W does worse versus the higher tiers.

Marth 60/40s G&W Falco, Diddy, and might 65/35 Wario. I say he goes even with ROB. This means he only has to worry about D3 Meta and Snake and snake and D3 aren't even that bad. D3s 40/60 which is winnable and Snake is only 45/55 due to his lack of aerial mobility. Meta is Marths only HARD obstacle to deal with and even with Meta, Marth still does well in tourney.
Again, throwing out random numbers you believe to be correct. It doesn't prove anything.

We all recognize that Marth generally can go fairly even or close to even with many characters. That fact alone does not justify his placement in High Tier.

he largely isnt winning tournaments because of meta knight
I personally disbelieve that Meta Knight is the real threat standing in Marths way. But that is my opinion.

But I will say that he is a considerable threat. And let's say for arguments sake he is the reason Marth isn't winning. How do you justify Marth not placing high? Currently right now, Meta Knight, Snake, Falco, Wario, King Dedede, Diddy Kong, and even Ice Climbers are surpassing Marth in rank for the month of Jan. And even that is surprising. I rarely find Marth surpass top 15 in tournament excluding big names like Neo.

Exactly. All his other matchups are very manageable but beating a good Metaknight as Marth is very hard.
It isn't just Meta Knight. Snake, King Dedede, R.O.B., Wario, Falco... Most of the High Tier and all of the Top Tier all have a reasonable chance at taking down a Marth in tournament. In every tournament I've used Marth in, I have never lost to a Meta Knight in tournament brackets or pools excluding once to King Ace. This doesn't prove or disprove Marths placement on a tier list, but it shows that not every Marth out there is automatically losing to Meta Knights, and only Meta Knights. Many of them may never fight a Meta Knight. Many of them may not reach high enough in Brackets or even pools to fight one.

Right now, Ice Climbers is placing better than Marth. I do not find that a coincidence. And Meta Knight absolutely ***** Ice Climbers hardcore. An intelligent Marth can do very well against a Meta Knight as long as he doesn't make any major mistakes.
 

laki

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I know...I guess I was just trying to say that Meta aside, Marth is a great character against the rest of the cast.
 

laki

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Again, throwing out random numbers you believe to be correct. It doesn't prove anything.

We all recognize that Marth generally can go fairly even or close to even with many characters. That fact alone does not justify his placement in High Tier.



I personally disbelieve that Meta Knight is the real threat standing in Marths way. But that is my opinion.

But I will say that he is a considerable threat. And let's say for arguments sake he is the reason Marth isn't winning. How do you justify Marth not placing high? Currently right now, Meta Knight, Snake, Falco, Wario, King Dedede, Diddy Kong, and even Ice Climbers are surpassing Marth in rank for the month of Jan. And even that is surprising. I rarely find Marth surpass top 15 in tournament excluding big names like Neo.



It isn't just Meta Knight. Snake, King Dedede, R.O.B., Wario, Falco... Most of the High Tier and all of the Top Tier all have a reasonable chance at taking down a Marth in tournament. In every tournament I've used Marth in, I have never lost to a Meta Knight in tournament brackets or pools excluding once to King Ace. This doesn't prove or disprove Marths placement on a tier list, but it shows that not every Marth out there is automatically losing to Meta Knights, and only Meta Knights. Many of them may never fight a Meta Knight. Many of them may not reach high enough in Brackets or even pools to fight one.

Right now, Ice Climbers is placing better than Marth. I do not find that a coincidence. And Meta Knight absolutely ***** Ice Climbers hardcore. An intelligent Marth can do very well against a Meta Knight as long as he doesn't make any hardcore mistakes.
If Marth is losing to Wario and Falco, thats due to lack of matchup expierience, Rob is even, you just have to be aggressive. It's already been said that DDD and snake are beatable, and if you have problems with those two, thats what counterpicks are for seeing as they both have **** disadvantage matchups.

Edit: Sorry for double post.
 

Inle~Orichas

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I'm thinking that if Marth is having trouble in tournaments, it's largely due to the ever increasing MK population. But that in itself is interesting. When the number of Marths in a tournament is severely less than Metaknights, are there going to be that many players concerned about Marth getting past their strategy, or are they going to develop their skills against a Metaknight? This is what makes me think Marth stands a chance in Top Tier, wrong or not.
 

Ulevo

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If Marth is losing to Wario and Falco, thats due to lack of matchup expierience,
I wasn't aware you could john for a character, but you managed to pull it off nicely.

There could be a plethora of reasons why Marth is losing to Wario and Falco. Maybe most Marth players are garbage? Maybe Marth is in fact just an okay character. Maybe Marth was "unlucky" this month. Maybe Marth came down with pneumonia and didn't feel well.

Bottom line is, he isn't winning consistently the way other High Tiers do, and he hasn't for a while, and there is a reason for it. I don't care what you think it is. The point is that it does in fact, and should in fact effect his Tier rating.

robs even, and as has been stated the other two are winnable and a lot easier than meta.
Blah blah blah. I'm getting really tired of this whole "this has been said so it's true" garbage. Who are you anyway? M2K? And the person who told you this is Azen, right?

I'm not quite sure why I waltzed in here.
 

laki

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I wasn't aware you could john for a character, but you managed to pull it off nicely.

There could be a plethora of reasons why Marth is losing to Wario and Falco. Maybe most Marth players are garbage? Maybe Marth is in fact just an okay character. Maybe Marth was "lucky" this month. Maybe Marth came down with pneumonia and didn't feel well.

Bottom line is, he isn't winning consistently the way other High Tiers do, and he hasn't for a while, and there is a reason for it. I don't care what you think it is. The point is that it does in fact, and should in fact effect his Tier rating.



Blah blah blah. I'm getting really tired of this whole "this has been said so it's true" garbage. Who are you anyway? M2K? And the person who told you this is Azen, right?

I'm not quite sure why I waltzed in here.
Why so hostile. I was saying that if you or people you know are losing to warios and Falcos, then its because you or whoever doesn't know the matchup. I believe Doctor Mario Guy said that marth versus Wario is heavily in marths favor and he's the best Wario in Texas if you care to know.

And BTW if I was M2K and said something thats garbage, are you such a meatrider that you'd believe just because of who I was. It doesn't matter that I only have 80ish posts. If what I say is true than it's true no matter who I am.
 

Ulevo

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Why so hostile. I was saying that if you or people you know are losing to warios and Falcos, then its because you or whoever doesn't know the matchup.
It certainly didn't sound like you were referring to me or people I knew. The context seemed to insinuate that you were speaking on a general sense. Either way, it isn't relevant.

Just because Marth loses to Wario or Falco does not mean it is because of match up inexperience. Heck, I could turn around and say the same thing if Marth happens to win.

I believe Doctor Mario Guy said that marth versus Wario is heavily in marths favor and he's the best Wario in Texas if you care to know.
Again we turn back to the fact that who Marth does and doesn't have advantages or disadvantages on does not exempt him from placing lower than High Tier.

And BTW if I was M2K and said something thats garbage, are you such a meatrider that you'd believe just because of who I was. It doesn't matter that I only have 80ish posts. If what I say is true than it's true no matter who I am.
I was not downsizing your opinion because of your name, post count, join date, or any other unimportant detail.

I was making a note of the fact that members of these boards (and especially the Marth boards) have a tendency to throw around numbers and "facts" as truth, only because they themselves believed to be so. Just because you've discussed a match up and come to what you believe to be a reasonable conclusion does not mean you can start going around telling the world that what you've agreed upon is correct, absolute, and should be treated as such. That is completely foolish. And that is exactly what you, and many people do.

I always hear things like "we've discussed this match up and it's been accepted that blah blah blah" or "it's been stated that x character against y character is blah blah blah". I don't care. Give me something that I can actually work with. Telling me about how much you've talked about something doesn't give me any reason to believe it is true, and this is precisely one of the biggest problems the Marth boards have.
 

∫unk

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I haven't really been keeping up with the tournament thread but are all the socal tournies being reported?

Marth did about the same as all previous months in SoCal... anywhere between 4th-7th and you'll usually find one between 1st-3rd in teams (different marths mind you).

SoCal has the most or second most amount of tournaments for a region so if they all aren't being reported then that skews the results a lot especially considering a lot of top Marths are in SoCal.
 

ChaosKnight

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and also region comes into mind when you think why marth has potential and such the char is overall good but think about it Most of the top marths play in the best regions which happen to have some top players :/

i always place 9th and i usually get eliminated by my crewmates... top Metaknight players... or chu or azen no one else ....

Region difficulty comes in mind when you think why some top marths are placing low
 

Nefarious B

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To whoever is saying Marth doesn't deserve his spot, who would be higher? Diddy and ROB have killing issues worse than Marth by far, Wario has range issues and (not sure if this is that important) grab release issues, Olimar gets gimped...Lucario is a lot like Marth actually so not sure how he would compare.
 

GPEternity

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Marth has no major advantages as a character, the matchup discussions are irrelevent because they largely factor in a player's ability to use the character and the player's ability to make judgements that affect the characters performance. Likewise Marth has no glaring disadvantages, hes light but fast, laggy attacks but relatively quick. As a character, Marth is reasonably well balanced. However, being a balance character puts him in MidTier range, since High Tier characters have something about them that inherently makes their character better than others, some strength that greatly outweighs weakness. MK has super duper speed, whorenado, godlike recovery and Snake half of snakes moves can kill, can set up traps with his mines, has explosives, projectile camping, and ftilt is a fast attack. DDD has CG -> Edqeguard, projectile with chance to kill, 5 jumps which boost his edgeguard, weight to avoid being killed, long reaching ftilt, and powerful attacks that make him one of if not the most effective camper in the game. Falco has his laser game, a cg for high damage at low percents, damaging attacks, and like marth has no glaringly exploitable weakness since autosweetspotting aids his recovery. GW's power:weight ratio is off the heezy, techchase dthrow, a good bair, good dtilt, and a plethora of kill moves, he even has a pseudo projectile. ROB has a reliable rocket recovery, 2 projectiles that do some good damage to work with, and quick tilts and a fast long reaching dsmash that make him a very effective camper. He may kill slower than Marth, but he can survive longer.

Marth has no projectile which leaves something crucial out of camping. He has no super speed like MK and his fastest attacks; Jab does not kill and DB is stale 99% of the time so it kills much later than it can. His kill moves are slow. He doesn't have the 5 jump edgeguard like MK, Kirby and DDD and due to his recovery he must be careful about going for gimps because a mistake can easily lead to being counter gimped and edgehogged.

In fact anything that Marth can do well, can be done to marth just as well. His bad Dair makes him succeptable to being juggled, his recovery can get him gimped, his laggy attacks can get him punished. And if he can gimp for a relatively low percent kill, his weight means he can also possibly die at quite a low percent also.

Everything about Marth carries some price. Thus I would argue Marth is possibly the most balanced character in brawl. Problem with being balanced is... half the cast is OP in some way or another.

Being a swiss army knife like Marth means the player must compensate for more weaknesses and exploit more advantages then other players, its a tall order. Marth is just not as easy to play as other characters that have something that screams 'abuse this aspect of me'. I would argue that the reason Marth is not playing well in tourneys is because playing marth well is a lot harder to do then playing MK well, and because of that Marth's performance suffers. And for the elite few who can say they play Marth very well, they still have to content with people who play MK, Snake, DDD, Falco and the other characters very well. Problem is those guys have a consistent game plan and a character that speaks for itself so its already a matchup in their favor in terms of getting settled in, then Marth has to deal with the fact that those matchups are widely considered in favor of the non-marth. On top of that for matchups where Marth goes even or slight advantage, he's still a harder character to play.

Add it all up and you get something along the lines of Good MK > Exceptional Marth.

Also, region does factor into placing greatly. M2K doesn't show up to as many WC events as he does East coast, in fact the population density on the east coast fosters more competition among a wider pool of players where WC smash not only has less players but also a lot of separation because we don't have closely linked major cities.
 

∫unk

Smash Master
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Also, region does factor into placing greatly. M2K doesn't show up to as many WC events as he does East coast, in fact the population density on the east coast fosters more competition among a wider pool of players where WC smash not only has less players but also a lot of separation because we don't have closely linked major cities.
I can take the time to break down the rest of your argument, but from this statement alone I can tell you have no idea what you're talking about.

Do you even know who places highest among WC Marths?
 

**Havok**

Smash Lord
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All of you bring up great points attempting address the fact how Marth is of a neutral state.

Is it his matchups? Im not so sure.

Is it character design? Maybe.

MK>Marth? Not all the time.

This is why I said theory, because its just a suggestion as to why Marth is just frustrating/awesome at the same time. I believe it's people going on "tilt" as the reason why Marth is the way he is.

Tilt is a poker term to describe someone going into an emotional state where they can't focus/play their best.

Wikipedia (for the gist of it):

"Tilt is a poker term for a state of mental confusion or frustration in which a player adopts a less than optimal strategy, usually resulting in the player becoming over-aggressive. This term is closely associated with steam and some consider the terms equivalent, but 'steam' typically carries more anger and intensity.[1]

Placing an opponent on tilt or dealing with being on tilt oneself is an important aspect of poker. It is a relatively frequent occurrence due to frustration, animosity against other players, or simply bad luck. Experienced players recommend learning to recognize that one is experiencing tilt and avoid allowing it to influence one’s play. "


I used to play Magic The Gathering in the pro circuit for a bit, not long mind you but enough to get a feel for what was going on and I feel like Marth goes on TILT indeed.

As to the matchups that I thought were a bit off are: Kirby, Falco, Wario, maybe Peach, maybe Olimar, . I have reasons enough as to why those matchups are even. Please refrain yourself from flame wars about this as it is my opinion from my experiences from all of my collective tournament play since I started. I will post something larger and lengthier tomorrow about those matchups. :bee:
 

DJMirror

Smash Master
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someone been playing poker too much *stares at Havok* hey havok what is your aim? me, junk and you need to meet up on a certain tournament so we mm each other

hot chick? and she's German chick? and your roommate? like Pbody and Mango once said to me if i do something amazing:

GOOD ****
 

**Havok**

Smash Lord
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I know i've been lurking for like the past 2 weeks but I really like this thread
I feel the same way about marth good **** havokk
Oh im not HAVOKK

im Havok with one K.

Get that straight.

lol the other havok lives in socal too, im gonna name match him :bee:
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
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To whoever is saying Marth doesn't deserve his spot, who would be higher? Diddy and ROB have killing issues worse than Marth by far, Wario has range issues and (not sure if this is that important) grab release issues, Olimar gets gimped...Lucario is a lot like Marth actually so not sure how he would compare.
Lucario is similar in the fact that he's actually pretty balanced (imo even more than marth), and therefore his matchups are hardly ever solid counters/**** (almost never beyond 65:35 advantage and 60:40 disadvantage).
Other than that, there are several differences:
-Projectile
-more safer kill moves on block, though somewhat slower in warm-up
-aura
-dair that actually nearly negates advatages that juggling has
-horrible counter (although imo decent for approaching against projectiles)
-ES is practically the opposite of DS (both are average recoveries, but ES is practically for recovery ONLY, whereas Marth's has outside uses for his).
-good jab game (almost as good as Ike's, btw, lucario's don't do AA ->FP anymore, and against opponents like marth or MK, they'll usually just finish the jab with AAA instead).
-amazing priority at burst (comparable to MK's), but hurtbox is somewhat vulnerable).
There's more I bet I'm missing, but that pretty much explains differences.
 
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