How cheap is PK Fire

[pollo20x6]

I've always believed that it is hard to trap another player in a PK Fire. I don't mean getting it to work for a grab, I mean to trap long enough to do a smash. Heck, just now pacman was able to jump out of a point blank activated PK Fire (I'm typing this in between matches).
But recently I played against this Ness who had just mastered tbe Fire. He was trapping me like crazy. 0 to death. All it took was 3 PK Fires and a bat to end me. Now, I'm not that bad. Up to this point, I've been pretty good at getting out of the Fire.
But at the same time, I know there is room for improvement (like how not to get trapped in the first place and effectively punish the already laggy move).
But the guy's gameplay motivated me to try to replicate it.
I wanted to see if I could pull off those devastating kills.
And I have. Kinda. On some yes and others no. Depends on character and skill level. I was able to trap a DDD with three PK Fires.
But a part of me feels bad. Am I spamming? Yes, but is it wrong? PK Fire is an incredibly laggy move. If I'm spamming, they've got a golden opportunity to take me down. I know I like it when I play against PK Fire spammers, I usually win because of it (cept that one time). But why did I lose that time? Is it because the move really is cheap?

And that's my dilemma. What do you guys think? Is PK Fire actually OP or is their a fair trade off to using it and getting trapped is due to one's own fault?

 

[neomadgic]

It's not cheap because it's a pretty punishable move. And some characters can get out of it easy.

 

[Azazel]

I've always believed that it is hard to trap another player in a PK Fire. I don't mean getting it to work for a grab, I mean to trap long enough to do a smash. Heck, just now pacman was able to jump out of a point blank activated PK Fire (I'm typing this in between matches).
But recently I played against this Ness who had just mastered tbe Fire. He was trapping me like crazy. 0 to death. All it took was 3 PK Fires and a bat to end me. Now, I'm not that bad. Up to this point, I've been pretty good at getting out of the Fire.
But at the same time, I know there is room for improvement (like how not to get trapped in the first place and effectively punish the already laggy move).
But the guy's gameplay motivated me to try to replicate it.
I wanted to see if I could pull off those devastating kills.
And I have. Kinda. On some yes and others no. Depends on character and skill level. I was able to trap a DDD with three PK Fires.
But a part of me feels bad. Am I spamming? Yes, but is it wrong? PK Fire is an incredibly laggy move. If I'm spamming, they've got a golden opportunity to take me down. I know I like it when I play against PK Fire spammers, I usually win because of it (cept that one time). But why did I lose that time? Is it because the move really is cheap?

And that's my dilemma. What do you guys think? Is PK Fire actually OP or is their a fair trade off to using it and getting trapped is due to one's own fault?

Unless he was doing this, there is no reason for you to have not escaped easily. At low percents, there is very little hitstun, so you can squeeze in quick aerials and hit Ness. At mid percents, there is so much knockback you can easily DI out and double jump. If he was doing multiple PK fires, the compounded Knockback should have pushed you out of the PK fires even quicker.
If waited for the PK fire to end then shot another PK fire, you should have had enough time escaped.

TL;DR dude just learn to DI and SDI man

 

[CURRY]

Pretty sure that there's no SDI in this game?
I know about the thing where you try to spam shield (can you buffer moves out of hitstun?) and try to PS a hit and roll away, but other than that... what do you do, actually?
Do you hold up and away?

 

[Azazel]

Pretty sure that there's no SDI in this game?
I know about the thing where you try to spam shield (can you buffer moves out of hitstun?) and try to PS a hit and roll away, but other than that... what do you do, actually?
Do you hold up and away?

SDI is weaken but not gone. How do you think people escape Lil Mac's Jabs befor teh final hit? Simple DI is not enough to escape lil macs jabs i believe. they use the corner DI method. teh C-stick method it not as effective since changes to C-stick (to my knowledge)

 

[CURRY]

SDI is weaken but not gone. How do you think people escape Lil Mac's Jabs befor teh final hit? Simple DI is not enough to escape lil macs jabs i believe. they use the corner DI method. teh C-stick method it not as effective since changes to C-stick (to my knowledge)

I thought that moving out of LM's jab is just normal DI?
SDI is "shuffle" movement that works with single-hit moves as well, while the user is in hitstun. Multi-hit moves are easier to SDI because there's lots of hitstun frames to move around in.
I think jabs still have (set or low, idk which) knockback, which is why people can get out of it?
So yeah, do jabs have set or low knockback? I think I remember CPUs at 999% getting out after the first hit of jab (indicating very, very low base knockback), but I'm not too sure.
Set knockback would be DI-able as well.

Can you elaborate on the "corner DI", though? I'm not very sure what you mean.
You mean QCSDI? Quarter-circles?
I haven't played with Ness as much in Smash 4 compared to in Brawl obviously, given that Smash 4 is only a few months old. I remember PKF having set knockback and KOing at 999%. In Brawl, at least.
DI?

edit, sorry if anything came off as cocky or rude. I actually kinda want to know how it works.

 

[Uffe]

It's not cheap enough. :/

 

[Azazel]

I thought that moving out of LM's jab is just normal DI?
SDI is "shuffle" movement that works with single-hit moves as well, while the user is in hitstun. Multi-hit moves are easier to SDI because there's lots of hitstun frames to move around in.
I think jabs still have (set or low, idk which) knockback, which is why people can get out of it?
So yeah, do jabs have set or low knockback? I think I remember CPUs at 999% getting out after the first hit of jab (indicating very, very low base knockback), but I'm not too sure.
Set knockback would be DI-able as well.

Can you elaborate on the "corner DI", though? I'm not very sure what you mean.
You mean QCSDI? Quarter-circles?
I haven't played with Ness as much in Smash 4 compared to in Brawl obviously, given that Smash 4 is only a few months old. I remember PKF having set knockback and KOing at 999%. In Brawl, at least.
DI?

edit, sorry if anything came off as cocky or rude. I actually kinda want to know how it works.

Yes When i said corner DI i was refering to QCSDI. And PK Fire knockback does scale in smash 4. Note teh Combo meter, sees each flash of PK fire as a combo which means there is enough hitstun for a combo. Hitstun is basically a direct result knockback.

 

[Duplighost]

If you fall straight into PK Fire and are stuck, be prepared to take some damage.
Try DI-ing up and away from where the fire strikes you, and mash your air-dodge button just in case.
If you have a reflector or absorbing move, that's useful as well.

 

[Noa.]

Sdi is still in the game. It's just incredibly weaker than in previous games.

 

[CURRY]

Sdi is still in the game. It's just incredibly weaker than in previous games.

=.=
ok.
Since everyone's saying that, I guess I'll buy it.
Is the SDI multiplier thing on a lot of moves 0, then? e.g. smart bomb?
multi-hit fire-based projectile moves and multi-hit jabs seem like the only escapable things.

 

[pollo20x6]

Unless he was doing this, there is no reason for you to have not escaped easily. At low percents, there is very little hitstun, so you can squeeze in quick aerials and hit Ness. At mid percents, there is so much knockback you can easily DI out and double jump. If he was doing multiple PK fires, the compounded Knockback should have pushed you out of the PK fires even quicker.
If waited for the PK fire to end then shot another PK fire, you should have had enough time escaped.

TL;DR dude just learn to DI and SDI man

Yeah, that's how he started it up. From a jump.
And I'm a Ness main. You don't need to explain to me how PK Fire works. I've seen it all. Players who get trapped, block it, roll out of it, DI out of it. And from those moments, I learned how to react when I play another Ness.

 

[Azazel]

Yeah, that's how he started it up. From a jump.
And I'm a Ness main. You don't need to explain to me how PK Fire works. I've seen it all. Players who get trapped, block it, roll out of it, DI out of it. And from those moments, I learned how to react when I play another Ness.

So he did he cross-up with the PK fire like shown in the video. Basically the video was showcasing a clever way to fight the horizontal knockback of the move I.E. using opposing forces: PK fires shot in opposite directions cancel out eachothers horizontal knockback (Although the vertical knockback is compounded, so it is easier to escape upwards) and/or Ness's Fat pushing characters into it.

 

[Earthbound360]

Topics like this make me want to barf.

I swear to god, if someone claims that PKF x500 into bat is a true 0-death combo one more time I will strangle a kitten.

Do you REALLY think Nintendo would let a move combo into itself until death? You can DI it, jump out of it, jab out of it, counter the burns, armor through it, a MILLION things. Sorry to say this, but if you got combod to death, you really just weren't trying hard enough to escape. There is no "mastering" PK Fire, there is no "cheap." As long as you're not just chewing on your controller during the burn, there's always something you can do.

 

[Azazel]

Topics like this make me want to barf.

I swear to god, if someone claims that PKF x500 into bat is a true 0-death combo one more time I will strangle a kitten.

Do you REALLY think Nintendo would let a move combo into itself until death? You can DI it, jump out of it, jab out of it, counter the burns, armor through it, a MILLION things. Sorry to say this, but if you got combod to death, you really just weren't trying hard enough to escape. There is no "mastering" PK Fire, there is no "cheap." As long as you're not just chewing on your controller during the burn, there's always something you can do.

IKR Its like seeing the Link Jab cancel infinite or Dedede Jab infinte. They do sorta work but are fundamentally limited.

 

[L9999]

Topics like this make me want to barf.

I swear to god, if someone claims that PKF x500 into bat is a true 0-death combo one more time I will strangle a kitten.

Do you REALLY think Nintendo would let a move combo into itself until death? You can DI it, jump out of it, jab out of it, counter the burns, armor through it, a MILLION things. Sorry to say this, but if you got combod to death, you really just weren't trying hard enough to escape. There is no "mastering" PK Fire, there is no "cheap." As long as you're not just chewing on your controller during the burn, there's always something you can do.

Diddy's Uair roofio kill. Or you mean something else?