How do I convince my friend that looking at Smash info isn't cheating

[Malart]

I have a friend, who is basically the only person I can play with at the moment, and I have been trying to get him to go online and take a look at the community so that he can get better(right now he is just slightly worse than me, and I want him to be better so that I can continue to improve). He insists that he thinks it is cheating, in the same way that looking at a strategy guide for a different kind of game is cheating. I have tried to change his mind, but have been unsuccessful as of yet. Does anyone have some suggestions?

 

[Velox]

Why would you want to reinvent the wheel instead of seeing what society has already built up for you? That's a waste of your creativity.


He's going to have a rough time in college reinventing something like physics.


He also seems like one of those guys who joins a martial art like karate trying to actually learn skills to defend himself when he should have done the necessary research online to realize only things like jiu-jitsu and MMA are worth a ****.


Tell him to stop playing single player games..


Tell him to grow up (lol).


He's also probably being lazy (lol).


If you want to be good, you have to join the community. You couldn't possibly be so arrogant as to think you can do it by yourself..


Hope I helped heh. I dealt with these kind of people all through grade school/high school.. They can be unhelpable though..

 

[TresChikon]

Verbally give him tips as you play. And demonstrate new moves for him. Turns it into a father-son bonding experience.

 

[Malart]

no I'm sure it won't hurt anything, but I saw something in the Official Everything thread that explained what to say to someone who said that they were 'too good' to learn wavedashing, and I was wondering if someone had made a thread for that topic, but expanded for advanced/improved play in general, because I have been unable to find it.

thanks for the quick response btw

 

[Vro]

youtube is all the encouragement you need. plus Wak's Advanced How to Play can teach you all the basics easily.

 

[Malart]

Verbally give him tips as you play. And demonstrate new moves for him. Turns it into a father-son bonding experience.

I have been doing that for things like wavedashing and teching/DI, and he just either ignores me completely(in the case of WDing,) or incorporates it into his play after a b***h of a long time. I am just trying to make it so I don't have to learn his favorite characters just to get a good practice partner. Also he won't even listen to me or try on things like l-canceling or anything more advanced.

 

[Malart]

Oh I'd show him TAHtP vids if I thought he would actually watch them.

 

[Winston]

What about sirlin's "playing to win"?

it's cliche as hell but when I was first getting into competitive gaming it erased any of my doubts about these kind of things

 

[Malart]

I will look for that right now, haven't read that yet

 

[Malart]

oh s**t, it's a book... he won't read books **facepalm**

 

[t3h Icy]

If he views it as cheating, "beat the game" (unlock everything, etc), and afterward, suggest to check out some of the stuff.

Or show him some combo videos. =D

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Simply ask him "How is it cheating?"

You will be able to counter any point he makes with ease, if you can't, then his point probably makes sense.

 

[Strong Badam]

it's different from using a strategy guide because you don't "unlock" advanced techniques, strategies, or skill. you earn them. i'm sure you've already unlocked everything by now, so his point is fairly moot.

 

[Malart]

his only point is that you are supposed to figure out everything on your own... he won't even look at movelists in other fighting games like street fighter, and he when he is playing team games like TF2, he won't take advice from someone who plays the game a lot as to some good things to do when playing a certain class, even though he has hardly ever played the game before... and if I shoot down all his points and offer alternate real-life metaphors, like someone telling you not to run a red light, he says that they don't apply because games don't have consequences, and eventually he will just stonewall me with a shrug and an 'eh'... if I say he will never be as good as pros/semi-pros, he says 'eh, I'm fine with that.' however, he wants to take back his copy of melee(the only one we have, I'm trying to get my hands on one) because he says that he 'needs to get better'

 

[Archangel]

It's more like reading the manual that then it is reading a strategy guide. If you can't reason with him I suggest learning as much as you can. Assuming you don't think he's the kind that will quit if completely out-matched. If you don't then I would try to pass him as much as possible. To the point where he can't take a stock off of you anymore.

 

[Strong Badam]

learn l-canceling wavedashing dashdancing and **** him. in da butt. with ur newfound powers

 

[Malart]

it's different from using a strategy guide because you don't "unlock" advanced techniques, strategies, or skill. you earn them. i'm sure you've already unlocked everything by now, so his point is fairly moot.

that is the argument that has the most effect, as that just has him ignoring that point altogether, so I don't know if it actually has any lasting effect, as he tends to be the type to never admit that he is changing his mind based on someone elses opinion unless it is the most obvious thing in the world, or is irrefutable fact. As this is by and large an opinion based argument, I have not yet been able to conjure a strong enough statement to accurately contrast his strange and extremist views on cheating with reality so he can see my point.

 

[Malart]

It's more like reading the manual that then it is reading a strategy guide. If you can't reason with him I suggest learning as much as you can. Assuming you don't think he's the kind that will quit if completely out-matched. If you don't then I would try to pass him as much as possible. To the point where he can't take a stock off of you anymore.

I would soooo love to be able to do this, but I have been seriously trying to learn and improve for only about three weeks at this point, and I have only him at the moment to play, so I'm stuck with practicing with him or by myself, and he is about even with me unless I play Marth, who I have spent the most time learning. I am currently working on getting better than him, but if he demands his copy back, I'm stuck where I am till I can get another, and I am hella poor, so that would be a while lulz

 

[Malart]

also I friggin love that Project M trailer you put together Spam... can't wait to try that out. Hoping for it to be good enough to replace Brawl+ and maybe even Melee, it looks like it could get awesome enough to.


**EDIT**
KNOWING that it WILL be good enough to replace Brawl+, and hoping for it to be good enough to replace melee

 

[Strong Badam]

lol brawl+ is a joke

 

[Malart]

lol brawl+ is a joke

agreed, but I love me some Wolf/Pit/ZSS action... in a less suggestive way than that sounds

 

[rhan]

lol brawl+ is a joke

Brawl- is a better joke.

 

[Malart]

Brawl- is a better joke.

couldn't stand playing that for more than like an hour or two... it's fun for if you aren't in a competitive mood though

 

[rhan]

Brawl shouldn't be a competitive game anyway. At least I had more fun playing Brawl- than any other forms of Brawl. Pika is hella broke.

 

[Malart]

Brawl shouldn't be a competitive game anyway.

Hopefully Project M will change that.

 

[Return]

Quick answer?

You can't.

He obviously doesn't have the same level of interest in smash as you do. You've probably already convinced him many times, and if he doesn't even want to watch videos, he really has no interest of getting better. I've gone through the same situation, I've tried showing my friends amazing smash videos, but he just shrugged them off and continued to use luigi without wavedashing.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Eh, you should have noticed by now this is just the average casual player who couldn't give a rats *** about getting into Melee. Really, getting real life friends into Smash is incredibly hard and I just don't bother with it anymore.

Where do you live by the way? Maybe you can find some people.

 

[NeutralDamage]

You can't convince him. Those types of people are impossible to convince; they have to learn the truth by themselves and it will take time probably. But for now, it would be as impossible as trying to convince a religious guy that there is no God and that is just made up stuff. So forget it.

 

[Malart]

thing is, he is wanting to take his copy back, saying that he 'needs' to get better, and if I were to show him everything on here by learning it myself and showing him firsthand, he might actually incorporate it, I was just hoping that someone out there had met someone like that and changed their mind, thus perhaps knowing a different approach... i guess not though heh. and I live in Maine, near a college, so I'm sure there are smash clubs around, I just can't afford transportation to any game stores... one of my other friends is going to be going to the college this coming semester, so I'm gonna see if he knows anyone, but till then, I have no one but this friend.

 

[Malart]

You can't convince him. Those types of people are impossible to convince; they have to learn the truth by themselves and it will take time probably. But for now, it would be like trying to convince a religious guy that there is no God and that is just made up stuff. So forget it.

I like the analogy lol

 

[Pi]

You need to convince him that you are not competing so much as you are learning and that there are people 10x better than you are so it doesn't matter who wins between you guys, because in the end you still have a long way to go before you can start being happy with where you are at.

Chances are though, he doesn't want to put forth the effort, he just wants to win, and when he realize that he can't easily accomplish that he'll quit altogether.

Sorry bro.

It's really hard to set aside the competitiveness once established.


Some important things to remember when trying to convince people:
Don't try to prove them wrong
Don't try to make them look stupid
Ask them questions about the material, see what they know/think about it, get them interested
'What do you think about this technique? How do you think it could be applied?'


It's hard, people are stubborn, and chances are his main focus is beating you/proving he's better than you.

 

[Malart]

I think that people are right when they say that I won't be able to convince him. If I were to ask questions like that, he would most likely just either make a joke, say he doesn't know/care, or ignore me altogether because he would think I was being condescending or something like that.

Meh, I guess I'll just wait till I can find some college students willing to play a rookie lol

 

[Jim Morrison]

thing is, he is wanting to take his copy back, saying that he 'needs' to get better, and if I were to show him everything on here by learning it myself and showing him firsthand, he might actually incorporate it, I was just hoping that someone out there had met someone like that and changed their mind, thus perhaps knowing a different approach... i guess not though heh. and I live in Maine, near a college, so I'm sure there are smash clubs around, I just can't afford transportation to any game stores... one of my other friends is going to be going to the college this coming semester, so I'm gonna see if he knows anyone, but till then, I have no one but this friend.

I mean look for people on here, there's bound to people from Maine, willing to travel to play some smash with you. Or you'll just go to them for once .

Shouldn't be too hard.

 

[Malart]

Is there a way to search users by location? or am I not seeing it heh

 

[Strong Badam]

http://www.smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=89

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

how about this WD backwards to f-smash as marth should **** everything he can do he can't beat that without DDing/wding unless you hit him really close and he sheilds. or something also double fairs as marth should **** him. Really if he has no tech skill you can still learn and become better and just totally F***ing **** his S***. Also in dittos EVERYTHING is fair unless argeed form early like freeze glitch or something.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

how about this WD backwards to f-smash as marth should **** everything he can do he can't beat that without DDing/wding unless you hit him really close and he sheilds. or something also double fairs as marth should **** him. Really if he has no tech skill you can still learn and become better and just totally F***ing **** his S***. Also in dittos EVERYTHING is fair unless argeed form early like freeze glitch or something.

I agree, there is pretty much no way to stop a Marth without using tech skill, so just practice with him for a bit.

 

[Jim Morrison]

You have to **** him for his own good.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

marth ***** ALL noobs. Why he was high on the tier list.

 

[Strong Badam]

Sheik is pretty **** at low levels as well.