How do you feel about the winner being character locked?

[t3h Icy]

I think naturally most people will disagree with this rule, but I mean for this topic to discuss how if will affect players at EVO. Do you think Mew2King will have some nasty plans against some of the other top player? Will any of the other 100s of players be ready to use this to the fullest advantage with planned counterpicks?

I'm also curious as to how Mango will have his Puff ready for Mew2King seeing that if they end up on FD, that would suggest Mew2King just lost the previous match, and Mango won't be able to switch. Unless of course, Mango decides to go Puff from the beginning, but I don't think that'll happen.

Edit: Thanks to Mr. Wizard for accommodating to our ruleset!

 

[LLDL]

I think that's sick.. they can't beat you to be fighting one of their characters and then cop out after you counterpick character and stage. It also doesn't affect me because I main one character. So it benefits me against character specialists.

 

[Battlecow]

I think that rule sucks super duper donkey **** and I don't know why they put it in. How hard is it to just not **** with the ruleset?

Prolly won't make a huge difference to many people, though.

I'm worried about it ****ing with an armada-hbox set (read: delegitimizing Hbox's win if he should win with a CP char)

 

[michael_li]

how do you know there's that rule?

 

[smashmachine]

how do you know there's that rule?

because it's in the rules?

 

[AceDudeyeah]

http://evo.shoryuken.com/evo-player-guide/evo-tournament-rules/#characters
"The player who won the last Game is required to keep the same characters, game modes, and order of characters for the next Game."

I don't believe that should be kept for Smash Brothers though.

 

[Ripple]

Mr. Wizard specifically said we can use APEX ruleset. That rule does not apply to us

 

[Strong Badam]

it's good and honestly should be in our ruleset now that there are no ******** stages like rainbow cruise and pokefloats legal.

 

[t3h Icy]

Mr. Wizard specifically said we can use APEX ruleset. That rule does not apply to us

Can we get a source and confirmation?

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Can we get a source and confirmation?

I would very much like to see this.

Either a confirmation that we have to follow character locking or we do not.
I heard that at first Mr. Wizard allowed APEX, then said it would be too confusing for new players and instated character-locking, which is currently where it's at right now. So hopefully, Ripple, you're news isn't up to date and you can provide a contrary! *crosses fingers*

 

[The Business]

it's good and honestly should be in our ruleset now that there are no ******** stages like rainbow cruise and pokefloats legal.

FD is still legal.

 

[Ripple]

Ok, I guess I was wrong. Sorry everyone. You're locked in

 

[phish-it]

It is this way because the same rule applies to other fighting games and they wanted to keep it consistent/less complicated for the majority. But unlike other fighting games (Injustice being the closest) Melee's stages play a role in the match up which makes this rule less appealing for us.

 

[Pizzaman]

I think this should only apply to FGC people. They don't have to worry about stage counterpicks and things like that.

 

[Strong Badam]

FD is still legal.

Is there a problem with Fox and Falco not winning a match-up on one stage against two or three characters?

 

[MrWizard]

Can someone link me to the APEX ruleset? I cant seem to find it.

 

[Quad-K]

Can someone link me to the APEX ruleset? I cant seem to find it.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Apex_2012#General_rules_2

 

[Revven]

That's from 2012... not 2013 and it is missing the rule that people so desperately want for EVO as far as I can see.

 

[CyberZixx]

Is there a problem with Fox and Falco not winning a match-up on one stage against two or three characters?

Absolutely not. If say M2K can outplay a spacey on FD then all the power to him. I like the idea of character lock as Smash still has stage counter picks.

 

[commonyoshi]

Dont we have stage bans? This shouldn't really matter if all spacies ban fd which we're used to banning like 99% of the time anyways.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Is there a problem with Fox and Falco not winning a match-up on one stage against two or three characters?

no, but there's a problem with only considering fox/falco when it comes to losing matchups on fd.

 

[N1c2k3]

I went to a small'ish con/tourny that D.A./Empire showed up to. At the time that was their normal ruleset, and since the T.O's didn't really know Melee rules DA enforced this rule. I ended up losing in GF's to Dire in a very small part due to this rule, imo. I got owned pretty hard a few of the matches so it probably didn't make a huge difference in the end; it was mostly cuz I had never heard of the rule and wasn't used to it. I still don't like the rule at all (don't think it fits Smash well), but I don't think we should complain if that's what the rules end up being and just plan/practice around them...

 

[Alex Strife]

for apex we do not do character lock.

We also use a slightly modified MBR rulelist.

 

[CT Chia]

This really changes a lot. Virtually every single Smash tourney has it so where the winner can change character. The reason this is primarily done in Smash is because the stages have a big impact on matchups unlike other FGC titles. Giving the loser the CP advantage for stage and character is drastic, which is why there's a little bit of a trade off, allowing the winner to change character after the loser picks the stage, but before they pick their character.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

I think this should only apply to FGC people. They don't have to worry about stage counterpicks and things like that.

Injustice players have to worry about this. I won't say as much as Melee but some characters get ****ed on certain stages in Injustice.

 

[Strong Badam]

no, but there's a problem with only considering fox/falco when it comes to losing matchups on fd.

among the viable characters, they are the only ones affected in a significant way.

 

[Pengie]

Same thing goes for Soul Calibur iirc. The winner can't change character regardless of whether the opponent decides to counterpick a stage.

 

[Sedda]

Terrible idea to push character locks right now.

It's just not the way the metagame has been this whole time. Maybe you can test that out in smaller tournaments and slowly reach a decision, but there's no reason to do character lock during evo.

 

[MrWizard]

We are not trying to push anything. These are the Evo rules. All I'm asking is for some proof that character lock was not required in the APEX ruleset, since that's what we agreed to.

Im looking for a cached page, or some page on the internet that reflects such rule, and ill make the change.

 

[michael_li]

ooooooooooo get *****

 

[Ripple]

the APEX ruleset that was used was never posted on smashboards, I just went through the entire APEX tournament thread.

alex strife only linked the ruleset to an apex-series.com page which held the ruleset.

apex-series.com is not currently working, ergo, no screen cache

 

[Revven]

We are not trying to push anything. These are the Evo rules. All I'm asking is for some proof that character lock was not required in the APEX ruleset, since that's what we agreed to.

Im looking for a cached page, or some page on the internet that reflects such rule, and ill make the change.

I think the best you're going to get right now is this which is the Zenith 2013 rule set. According to crismas (who is in charge of the apex website) it's the exact same rule set as Apex 2013 except with Wobbling legal. And character being locked for the Winner is off. Meaning, loser picks stage, winner can switch character, loser can switch character

Does that confirm enough or...?

 

[Sedda]

Wasn't Alex Strife the TO for Apex? His word should be enough

 

[Tero.]

We are not trying to push anything. These are the Evo rules. All I'm asking is for some proof that character lock was not required in the APEX ruleset, since that's what we agreed to.

Im looking for a cached page, or some page on the internet that reflects such rule, and ill make the change.

I don't remember the Smash Community ever having character locks and it's visible in most of our videos. Requesting proof for it is like requesting proof that we don't play with Items.

In SF and most fighting games there are no differences between stages, so if you won there is no reason to switch characters. In Melee however a stage can change a whole Match-up, being forced to stick with your character can possible get you stage AND match-up counter picked, which is arguably worse than just being match-up counter picked.

Common examples would be Fox and Falco who might not want to stay on Final Destination because they get chain grabbed there (lack of platforms)
Link who's hookshot recovery is limited on Battlefield
Game & Watch who can't sweetspot the ledge to recover on Yoshi's Story
Doctor Mario who has problems reaching the platforms on Dreamland because his jumps are too small
etc.

for apex we do not do character lock.

We also use a slightly modified MBR rulelist.

Also Alex Strife is the host of Apex, this should be more than enough confirmation

 

[LLDL]

yeah we've never used character locks in smash.

 

[Memory]

We are not trying to push anything. These are the Evo rules. All I'm asking is for some proof that character lock was not required in the APEX ruleset, since that's what we agreed to.

Im looking for a cached page, or some page on the internet that reflects such rule, and ill make the change.

Yea Alex Strife was the TO for Apex, and he's already weighed in a couple posts up. The current Apex site is under construction and there doesn't seem to be a cached version via google or the wayback machine available.

 

[t3h Icy]

Since there's no solid proof immediately available, here's a quick few links of sets if you want to see some real examples:

Revival of Melee 3: (2010)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb5ZE-HxVBE Game 1: Mango uses Link and wins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb5ZE-HxVBE&t=3m22s Game 2: Mango uses Marth

Zenith 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSylN2HoNSk&t=3m10s Game 2: Axe uses Falco and wins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSylN2HoNSk&t=6m42s Game 3: Axe uses Pikachu in game 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSylN2HoNSk&t=10m48s Game 4: Mew2King uses Sheik and wins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSylN2HoNSk&t=14m29s Game 5: Mew2King uses Marth

Revival of Melee 5: (2012)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOBiym0TKYE&t=1m8s Game 1: Mew2king uses Marth, Unknown uses Fox; Unknown wins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOBiym0TKYE&t=4m42s Game 2: Mew2king uses Sheik and Unknown uses Falcon; Mew2King wins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOBiym0TKYE&t=8m58s Game 3: Mew2King uses Marth and Unknown uses Fox

Zenith 2013
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVfxGX7S2v4&t=4m46s Game 2: Mew2King uses Marth and wins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVfxGX7S2v4&t=7m32s Game 3: Mew2King uses Sheik

Unfortunately, I couldn't find any cases where this occurred at Apex, but hopefully a spread of examples over the years is at least helpful. It's certainly a rare situation since to begin with; only a handful of players are proficient enough with more than one character, and it's also rare to want to switch after winning (suggesting to stay with the character). When it happens, it's usually due to the stage selection. Hopefully proper proof can come up later.

The standard format for counterpicking is Loser picks stage, Winner picks character, Loser picks character.

 

[CT Chia]

Here is the best proof I can get at the moment:
http://i.imgur.com/HOunWTF.png

As a head of Apex I have access to the site, and here is a screenshot from the backend of it. You'll see that the coming soon mode is turned on, which is why you can't see it since we're preparing for our 2014 reveal. However, here is the editing of the melee rules page. You see it was last edited by me way back in February (tbh I don't remember what was changed, but either way it was way before today lol). There is the set procedure in the box, clearly stating that the winner may change their character.

 

[KrIsP!]

Character locking was actually interesting. Imagine the hype when armada plays hbox or mango throws in puff, or m2k wins with marth on fd. They would have had tricks up their sleeves for that.

What's actually important is bans in a bo5. I don't want to see everyone banning FD against m2k or hbox having to go to yoshis cause they ran out of stages and dreamland is banned.

 

[Alex Strife]

We don't use character lock. Not since 2005.


Sorry I didn't look at this more I was working and they require I turn off my phone.

But ya what Chibo posted should be enough.