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How does The Road To Apex work

Lech Walesa

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
31
Location
Bristol, PA
Hello, I'm relatively new at melee. But, I've been actively watching tournament streams since Genesis 2. I was wondering: stated in title.

Is it point based? I've seen point posting on some tournament threads. How tournaments enter "The Road To Apex"? Does the winner of Apex get a free ride to the winner's final set, like I've seen in other brackets, else where?

Basically, anything you know about the tournaments in TR2A and Apex, I would like to know.

(Please, answer this in a PM.)
I was wondering, since my tech. skill isn't down pat, should I still go to a tournament? Maybe, a local one, or just to see what it's like? I know that if I go, I'd have to play. :awesome:

THANKS, IN ADVANCE!:bee:
 

iRobinhoood

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 13, 2011
Messages
1,389
Location
Atl North
There's playing cpu's, then there's playing with your buddies, and then there's melee played at tournaments. Go to a local tournament first and play good people. You'll notice right away the things you need to improve and what doing it right kinda looks like.

If Apex is going to be your first tournament your most likely gonna get sandbagged and just increase the prize payout. Been there done that :smirk:
































Still doing it :troll:
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Hello, I'm relatively new at melee. But, I've been actively watching tournament streams since Genesis 2. I was wondering: stated in title.

Is it point based? I've seen point posting on some tournament threads. How tournaments enter "The Road To Apex"? Does the winner of Apex get a free ride to the winner's final set, like I've seen in other brackets, else where?

Basically, anything you know about the tournaments in TR2A and Apex, I would like to know.

(Please, answer this in a PM.)
I was wondering, since my tech. skill isn't down pat, should I still go to a tournament? Maybe, a local one, or just to see what it's like? I know that if I go, I'd have to play. :awesome:

THANKS, IN ADVANCE!:bee:
All the points do are make it more affordable for top players from different regions to attend. So if you have someone like Kels who is a (maybe THE) top player in the midwest, he can win a midwest regional sponsored by Apex, and if he wins he will get a stipend for travel fees to attend Apex. It also affects seeding, but not really since only top players are going to win tournaments anyway. So while Kels would also earn a top seed by winning a sponsored tournament, it wouldn't matter because he would already be seeded well.

So mostly it's just supporting players to go to Apex + hyping Apex through other tournaments.

As far as your question, idk why you want people to PM you since that's a very common question that gets asked. lol The general consensus is that you should go and just have a good time. You'll learn a lot no matter how bad you are (you are pretty limited with bad tech skill though). You don't have to enter if you don't want to, but don't think that you getting destroyed is reason enough to not enter. Everyone gets destroyed their first tournament (first few, really). It's a good way of motivating yourself if you seriously want to improve. Also, make sure you get peoples' contact info and stuff. The real improvement comes through tech skill practice on your own + 10-hour smashfests with a few people.
 

Armada

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
1,366
How is this "stipend for travel fees to attend Apex" working?
Was they included in the payouts from every "Road to Apex" tournament or how does it work?
 

Juggleguy

Smash Grimer
Premium
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
9,354
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
How is this "stipend for travel fees to attend Apex" working?
Was they included in the payouts from every "Road to Apex" tournament or how does it work?
I think it's an Apex-specific stipend rather than a straight-up pot bonus. So you'd have to claim the stipend by attending Apex 2013 and talking to Alex Strife there to get it.
 

Lech Walesa

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
31
Location
Bristol, PA
All the points do are make it more affordable for top players from different regions to attend. So if you have someone like Kels who is a (maybe THE) top player in the midwest, he can win a midwest regional sponsored by Apex, and if he wins he will get a stipend for travel fees to attend Apex. It also affects seeding, but not really since only top players are going to win tournaments anyway. So while Kels would also earn a top seed by winning a sponsored tournament, it wouldn't matter because he would already be seeded well.

So mostly it's just supporting players to go to Apex + hyping Apex through other tournaments.

As far as your question, idk why you want people to PM you since that's a very common question that gets asked. lol The general consensus is that you should go and just have a good time. You'll learn a lot no matter how bad you are (you are pretty limited with bad tech skill though). You don't have to enter if you don't want to, but don't think that you getting destroyed is reason enough to not enter. Everyone gets destroyed their first tournament (first few, really). It's a good way of motivating yourself if you seriously want to improve. Also, make sure you get peoples' contact info and stuff. The real improvement comes through tech skill practice on your own + 10-hour smashfests with a few people.

OHHHH, okay. That's nice. Would you explain seeding, please? Does that have to do with the points obtained at tournaments, or are the points not relevant to seeding?

And, I wanted people to PM me, simply because I just wanted this thread to stay on topic.
:bee: Oh, and I don't mind getting beat. And, I'm thinking about attending Apex 2013, just to see what it's like. And, I what you mean, with the motivation and such. Thank you, for your insight.
 

fatman667

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 30, 2011
Messages
364
Location
4S Ranch, San Diego, CA
Hello, I'm relatively new at melee. But, I've been actively watching tournament streams since Genesis 2. I was wondering: stated in title.

Is it point based? I've seen point posting on some tournament threads. How tournaments enter "The Road To Apex"? Does the winner of Apex get a free ride to the winner's final set, like I've seen in other brackets, else where?

Basically, anything you know about the tournaments in TR2A and Apex, I would like to know.

(Please, answer this in a PM.)
I was wondering, since my tech. skill isn't down pat, should I still go to a tournament? Maybe, a local one, or just to see what it's like? I know that if I go, I'd have to play. :awesome:

THANKS, IN ADVANCE!:bee:
It's always best to go whether you just spectate and watch or actually play, maybe you'll learn something new. But if you don't want to waste money, then I wouldn't recommend playing until you get some basics down. Also enter local tournaments when you have the chance it'll help you a lot. So best choice is don't go and just improve and enter local tournaments.

There's playing cpu's, then there's playing with your buddies, and then there's melee played at tournaments. Go to a local tournament first and play good people. You'll notice right away the things you need to improve and what doing it right kinda looks like.
Having real people to play with is always good, but CPUs all depends on the player.
 

MasterShake

Smash Lord
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
1,911
Location
Sacramento, CA
Oh, and I don't mind getting beat.
Then your mindset is already primed for improvement. Attend a local ASAP, you'll have an awesome time for $5 - $10, and meet a lot of chill people (of varying skill levels) that like to play smash. Tournaments are really fun.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
OHHHH, okay. That's nice. Would you explain seeding, please? Does that have to do with the points obtained at tournaments, or are the points not relevant to seeding?

And, I wanted people to PM me, simply because I just wanted this thread to stay on topic.
:bee: Oh, and I don't mind getting beat. And, I'm thinking about attending Apex 2013, just to see what it's like. And, I what you mean, with the motivation and such. Thank you, for your insight.
Seeding is used to match up players in such a way that the best players do not play and knock each other out super early. So just take a simple example of a local tourney with 16 players. You rank the players based on skill from 1-16. Very talented players will get seed 1-8 while the newest (and worst) players will get seeds 9-16. Then in the first round of bracket, seed 1 (super good player) plays seed 16 (super bad player). 2 plays 15, 3 plays 14, etc. TOs (tournament organizers) rarely actually rank each individual player. Instead, they rank by approximate skill, and then let the tournament program (Tio, usually) randomly set up the bracket. So if you have 4 players who are all really good and equal in skill, they will all be ranked the same and Tio will randomly select which one plays the lowest seed. This works the same from the bottom, so when you attend your first tournament you will likely be the last seed along with a few other players who are also new.

If this sounds unfair that you have to play really good players first round, just keep in mind that the alternative is that the good players have to play each other first round. Not only would Mango vs. Armada in the first round be extremely unhype, but it would make the loser's bracket super lame because either one would most likely work their way back and completely mess up the expectations of other players. If I happen to get Mango in my half of the loser's bracket, it's unfair for me compared to someone on the other side who doesn't have a player of equal skill. That means someone could get ranked higher than me solely because Mango and Armada were seeded poorly.

This is all for the standard double elimination bracket. For Apex, if you decide to enter, you'll be participating in pools. Pools are seeded the same as bracket (8 players, with each player ranked 1-8). The point of pools is to get more accurate seedings for players that the TO couldn't possibly know the skill of. So if the pool has top 4 advancing to bracket and you are 5th seed, you can still get that 4th place spot to advance by beating the 4th seed (or another seed, but the 4th seed is the one you're most likely to upset). Another benefit of pools is that you will be guaranteed at least as many matches as there are players in your pool. Instead of losing to two really good players in a row and being done, you will get to play a good number of players of all varying skill levels. Hopefully you get the gist of how seeds work based on this. There's a lot of extra info you can find on seedings, pools, and other tournament formats (Swiss, single-elimination, etc).
 

ajp_anton

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 9, 2006
Messages
1,462
Location
Stockholm
A tournament takes a lot of shortcuts. To really measure everyone's skill, everyone needs to play everyone. There is not nearly enough time for that, so we rank players after how we *think* they will perform and place them accordingly into the bracket (this is seeding), and if the prediction was correct, then there is no problem and it was all fair.
However, it might be a bit more difficult to climb the rankings, because you have to beat a player anywhere between one and a few spots above you. The number of "a few" decreases as you approach the top, but there's always some luck involved in who you have to play, not to mention different matchups exist.
 

Lech Walesa

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
31
Location
Bristol, PA
It's always best to go whether you just spectate and watch or actually play, maybe you'll learn something new. But if you don't want to waste money, then I wouldn't recommend playing until you get some basics down. Also enter local tournaments when you have the chance it'll help you a lot. So best choice is don't go and just improve and enter local tournaments.


Having real people to play with is always good, but CPUs all depends on the player.
Yeah, that's what I was figuring. I definitely want to go to Apex, just to be there. But, I know I wouldn't be able to go and not play. :D

Then your mindset is already primed for improvement. Attend a local ASAP, you'll have an awesome time for $5 - $10, and meet a lot of chill people (of varying skill levels) that like to play smash. Tournaments are really fun.
Yeah. I gained that mindset through playing chess online. Lol. If I didn't get it, I probably wouldn't be playing it online, or have a computer for that matter. :smirk:

Seeding is used to match up players in such a way that the best players do not play and knock each other out super early. So just take a simple example of a local tourney with 16 players. You rank the players based on skill from 1-16. Very talented players will get seed 1-8 while the newest (and worst) players will get seeds 9-16. Then in the first round of bracket, seed 1 (super good player) plays seed 16 (super bad player). 2 plays 15, 3 plays 14, etc. TOs (tournament organizers) rarely actually rank each individual player. Instead, they rank by approximate skill, and then let the tournament program (Tio, usually) randomly set up the bracket. So if you have 4 players who are all really good and equal in skill, they will all be ranked the same and Tio will randomly select which one plays the lowest seed. This works the same from the bottom, so when you attend your first tournament you will likely be the last seed along with a few other players who are also new.

If this sounds unfair that you have to play really good players first round, just keep in mind that the alternative is that the good players have to play each other first round. Not only would Mango vs. Armada in the first round be extremely unhype, but it would make the loser's bracket super lame because either one would most likely work their way back and completely mess up the expectations of other players. If I happen to get Mango in my half of the loser's bracket, it's unfair for me compared to someone on the other side who doesn't have a player of equal skill. That means someone could get ranked higher than me solely because Mango and Armada were seeded poorly.

This is all for the standard double elimination bracket. For Apex, if you decide to enter, you'll be participating in pools. Pools are seeded the same as bracket (8 players, with each player ranked 1-8). The point of pools is to get more accurate seedings for players that the TO couldn't possibly know the skill of. So if the pool has top 4 advancing to bracket and you are 5th seed, you can still get that 4th place spot to advance by beating the 4th seed (or another seed, but the 4th seed is the one you're most likely to upset). Another benefit of pools is that you will be guaranteed at least as many matches as there are players in your pool. Instead of losing to two really good players in a row and being done, you will get to play a good number of players of all varying skill levels. Hopefully you get the gist of how seeds work based on this. There's a lot of extra info you can find on seedings, pools, and other tournament formats (Swiss, single-elimination, etc).
TL;DR Just kidding. ;) Oh, yes, I have a great understanding now. You add all the detail I look for when I ask a question. Thank you.

A tournament takes a lot of shortcuts. To really measure everyone's skill, everyone needs to play everyone. There is not nearly enough time for that, so we rank players after how we *think* they will perform and place them accordingly into the bracket (this is seeding), and if the prediction was correct, then there is no problem and it was all fair.
However, it might be a bit more difficult to climb the rankings, because you have to beat a player anywhere between one and a few spots above you. The number of "a few" decreases as you approach the top, but there's always some luck involved in who you have to play, not to mention different matchups exist.
Yeah, that's another thing I have to read up on, match-ups. Lol. And, I believe that's fair, seeding, in general.

Thanks everyone! :D
 

TheCrimsonBlur

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
Messages
3,407
Location
LA, CA near Santa Monica
Seeding is used to match up players in such a way that the best players do not play and knock each other out super early. So just take a simple example of a local tourney with 16 players. You rank the players based on skill from 1-16. Very talented players will get seed 1-8 while the newest (and worst) players will get seeds 9-16. Then in the first round of bracket, seed 1 (super good player) plays seed 16 (super bad player). 2 plays 15, 3 plays 14, etc. TOs (tournament organizers) rarely actually rank each individual player. Instead, they rank by approximate skill, and then let the tournament program (Tio, usually) randomly set up the bracket. So if you have 4 players who are all really good and equal in skill, they will all be ranked the same and Tio will randomly select which one plays the lowest seed. This works the same from the bottom, so when you attend your first tournament you will likely be the last seed along with a few other players who are also new.

If this sounds unfair that you have to play really good players first round, just keep in mind that the alternative is that the good players have to play each other first round. Not only would Mango vs. Armada in the first round be extremely unhype, but it would make the loser's bracket super lame because either one would most likely work their way back and completely mess up the expectations of other players. If I happen to get Mango in my half of the loser's bracket, it's unfair for me compared to someone on the other side who doesn't have a player of equal skill. That means someone could get ranked higher than me solely because Mango and Armada were seeded poorly.

This is all for the standard double elimination bracket. For Apex, if you decide to enter, you'll be participating in pools. Pools are seeded the same as bracket (8 players, with each player ranked 1-8). The point of pools is to get more accurate seedings for players that the TO couldn't possibly know the skill of. So if the pool has top 4 advancing to bracket and you are 5th seed, you can still get that 4th place spot to advance by beating the 4th seed (or another seed, but the 4th seed is the one you're most likely to upset). Another benefit of pools is that you will be guaranteed at least as many matches as there are players in your pool. Instead of losing to two really good players in a row and being done, you will get to play a good number of players of all varying skill levels. Hopefully you get the gist of how seeds work based on this. There's a lot of extra info you can find on seedings, pools, and other tournament formats (Swiss, single-elimination, etc).
This is a really good explanation.

Good **** Bones
 
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