How good is too good?

[Kief]

Link to original post: [drupal=1267]How good is too good?[/drupal]



So pretty soon im gonna start this little project type thing that has to do with tiers in a way (it wont be another tournament). In order to do this, i need to decide a cutt-off of which characters are way above the rest. I dont want it to seem biased though, so im trying to get everyone's opinion. Basicially i'd like for you to post where you think the gap is between the high tiers, and everybody else. I, for example, am leaning towards either A tier and above, or B tier and above. Those are the characters that seem to be a big step above the rest IMO. Here is the tier list for reference:

EDIT: Don't bother including mk and snake. Those are implied. The gap between the rest of the characters is what im really trying to find out.

A Tier
Falco 13.03
King Dedede 12.94
Mr. Game & Watch 12.50
Marth 12.09
Diddy Kong 11.94

B Tier
Wario 11.47
R.O.B. 11.38
Lucario 10.94
Olimar 10.94

C Tier
Pikachu 10.34
Kirby 10.16
Donkey Kong 10.06
Ice Climbers 9.59

D Tier
Zero Suit Samus 8.88
Toon Link 8.47
Pit 8.44
Peach 8.16
Wolf 7.91

E Tier
Luigi 7.41
Zelda 7.03
Bowser 6.91
Fox 6.66
Sheik 6.44
Ike 5.91

F Tier
Mario 4.56
Lucas 4.50
Ness 4.50
Samus 4.41
Sonic 4.16
Pokémon Trainer 3.94
Yoshi 3.66

G Tier
Link 2.28
Jigglypuff 2.03
Ganondorf 1.88
Captain Falcon 1.63

 

[Teran]

No character is too good.

Actually, Captain Falcon is.

In all honesty though, I'd say if there is any Quantum leap in metagame effectiveness, it's Meta over everyone else, purely for his lack of any hard counter.

Ban Sheik, Sheik is gay.

 

[Kief]

you made that hard to read on purpose -_-

and im not talking about broken, im just talking about really good. basically like...which exactly are the high tiers? or which are all the characters you constantly see doing well in tournaments?

hey thanks for the response

EDIT: maybe i should say...not including mk or snake lol. those are implied.

 

[Omis]

Go ask your mother.

 

[Teran]

I think a marked gap opens from C to D Tier. Tbh, I don't really like this Tier List, and it's definitely going to change (thanks to Pika's new CG for one), but from A to C Tier, I think the differences in tournament viability are incremental.

From D Tier I find that most of those characters are the ones that start to have more of an uphill battle in tournaments than the higher tiers. Still, because of Brawl's matchup importance, it doesn't really get too bad until the rock bottom tiers.

Go ask your mother.

We don't roll like that in User Blogs. Fix up man.

 

[Geist]

Please don't turn the term "too good" into something that has serious meaning.
For the children.
For Isai.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I'm not sure if this thread belongs here. If it starts getting too technical (as I suspect it will), I'm going to move it to Brawl General Discussion when I get home from work. You'd probably get better responses there anyway.

 

[Kief]

hmm i just recently found out there were blog forums :\

could you take it out of the blog boards and keep it on my profile? that was the point anyway lol...

EDIT: or move it to general brawl discussion. that works for me

sorry if i put this in the wrong place though

EDIT2: thanks for the insight teran

 

[Jam Stunna]

Unfortunately, when you make a blog it automatically posts a thread here as well.

I'll move it though. Good luck with your project!

 

[Kief]

alright thanks!

 

[Frown]

Under Game & Watch.

 

[tekkie]

All the characters look beatable on some level. Higher tier might have a crazy advantage, but they're beatable depending on the players.

 

[sMexy-Blu]

Thats what she said.

 

[Phantomwake]

I think there is a small dependence on the type of project you will be doing, If you needed more data I would say you could stretch as far as ICs but if you only need or do not want to deal with more than a few characters I think stopping at Marth to be completely reasonable

 

[:mad:]

For a character to be too good, they have to possess some moves that can't be beat by regular strategy, you'll have to adapt to their overwhelming advantages.

 

[Fatmanonice]

When you unlock Geno.

 

[:mad:]

But... Geno's awful. Mario RPG was awful.

-shot-

 

[Drakar]

No character is too good.

Actually, Captain Falcon is.

In all honesty though, I'd say if there is any Quantum leap in metagame effectiveness, it's Meta over everyone else, purely for his lack of any hard counter.

Ban Sheik, Sheik is gay.

sheik is not gay, sheik is just... Flamboyant...

 

[:mad:]

sheik is not gay, sheik is just... Flamboyant...

Drakar is not annoying, Drakar is just... Flamingoesque...

 

[Fatmanonice]

But... Geno's awful. Mario RPG was awful.

-shot-

Pray for forgiveness...

 

[:mad:]

Somehow, I knew that was coming.
Geno. He's lame.

 

[☆_Mutha-Foxin GangstaKirby_☆]

to be honest i think there are specific chars that are too good and only 3 of them

marth, falco, and mk

everyone else any tier character can beat them with ease when in the hands of the proper player

 

[kr3wman]

Only CF is too good, too good for any regular human to play him well.

 

[☆_Mutha-Foxin GangstaKirby_☆]

Only CF is too good, too good for any regular human to play him well.

u know what G~tier stands for?

G~tier is God~tier

 

[Champion_Link]

The biggest gap is between E and F tier.

 

[Dragoomba]

u know what G~tier stands for?

G~tier is God~tier

It all makes sense now.

 

[Tennet]

But... Geno's awful. Mario RPG was awful.

-shot-

Yes...BE SHOT.

 

[kr3wman]

I also think Mario RPG was awfu-shot-

 

[trev94]

Somehow, I knew that was coming.
Geno. He's lame.

Thank you!!!!! i feel the same way...

 

[The Dinkoman]

Somehow, I knew that was coming.
Geno. He's lame.

I believe both his legs are intact.

 

[donkeykongdiscoguy]

isai is too good

 

[akkon888]

What I may be about to say may sort of not make any sense to at least 97% of the people reading it.

There is not a character that is too good. There is no character that is better than one another because each character is perfectly balanced. You might be thinking that I have not played this game at all, but that doesn't matter anyway. The point is that there will always be a reaction to every action, as Newton's Third law states. Of course, this is applied to motion. However, this can also be applied to theoretical quantitative dynamics - or in other words, apply directly to this game.

When an action, such as a rubber band being stretched out, there will eventually be a reactive force, such as the rubber band snapping or being released. This force is absolutely equivalent to its previous action. Because Newton's Third law is not based solely on motion, but everything that the fabric of time and space relies on, such as emotion, heat, neurological stress, age, death, etc., it can also be applied to this game which will always consist of a quantitative interface. This interface is the reason that everything is completely balanced.

If a monkey were to infinitely type random letters on a typewriter, he would eventually write the plays of Shakespeare. This is absolutely true, because the time allowed to produce this would not be defined. Thus, the development of the human brain will always allow a resolution to the tiniest imbalances in things, because the game's interface is infinitely dynamic. This is to say, that this game is balanced.

The reason the game appears imbalanced is that we have not met another time existing at our exact space, so theoretically, an infinite number of people/aliens/giant potatos are playing this game at the instant we play it. And, as long as that monkey keeps typing, the dynamics of the game WILL change, and there is nothing no person/alien/giant potatoe can do anything about it.

I look forward to debating this, as I am almost positive that there will be at least a few thousand readers disagreeing with me, and thats fine. Just have an IQ greater than 5 when trying to respond, please.

 

[:mad:]

What I may be about to say may sort of not make any sense to at least 97% of the people reading it.

There is not a character that is too good. There is no character that is better than one another because each character is perfectly balanced. You might be thinking that I have not played this game at all, but that doesn't matter anyway. The point is that there will always be a reaction to every action, as Newton's Third law states. Of course, this is applied to motion. However, this can also be applied to theoretical quantitative dynamics - or in other words, apply directly to this game.

When an action, such as a rubber band being stretched out, there will eventually be a reactive force, such as the rubber band snapping or being released. This force is absolutely equivalent to its previous action. Because Newton's Third law is not based solely on motion, but everything that the fabric of time and space relies on, such as emotion, heat, neurological stress, age, death, etc., it can also be applied to this game which will always consist of a quantitative interface. This interface is the reason that everything is completely balanced.

If a monkey were to infinitely type random letters on a typewriter, he would eventually write the plays of Shakespeare. This is absolutely true, because the time allowed to produce this would not be defined. Thus, the development of the human brain will always allow a resolution to the tiniest imbalances in things, because the game's interface is infinitely dynamic. This is to say, that this game is balanced.

The reason the game appears imbalanced is that we have not met another time existing at our exact space, so theoretically, an infinite number of people/aliens/giant potatos are playing this game at the instant we play it. And, as long as that monkey keeps typing, the dynamics of the game WILL change, and there is nothing no person/alien/giant potatoe can do anything about it.

I look forward to debating this, as I am almost positive that there will be at least a few thousand readers disagreeing with me, and thats fine. Just have an IQ greater than 5 when trying to respond, please.

Hey, way to take this too seriously. At least you're on topic.
Can you turn all of that into one concise statement?

I also stand by what I said. Mario RPG.
It was awful.

 

[Vyse]

What I may be about to say may sort of not make any sense to at least 97% of the people reading it.

There is not a character that is too good. There is no character that is better than one another because each character is perfectly balanced. You might be thinking that I have not played this game at all, but that doesn't matter anyway. The point is that there will always be a reaction to every action, as Newton's Third law states. Of course, this is applied to motion. However, this can also be applied to theoretical quantitative dynamics - or in other words, apply directly to this game.

When an action, such as a rubber band being stretched out, there will eventually be a reactive force, such as the rubber band snapping or being released. This force is absolutely equivalent to its previous action. Because Newton's Third law is not based solely on motion, but everything that the fabric of time and space relies on, such as emotion, heat, neurological stress, age, death, etc., it can also be applied to this game which will always consist of a quantitative interface. This interface is the reason that everything is completely balanced.

If a monkey were to infinitely type random letters on a typewriter, he would eventually write the plays of Shakespeare. This is absolutely true, because the time allowed to produce this would not be defined. Thus, the development of the human brain will always allow a resolution to the tiniest imbalances in things, because the game's interface is infinitely dynamic. This is to say, that this game is balanced.

The reason the game appears imbalanced is that we have not met another time existing at our exact space, so theoretically, an infinite number of people/aliens/giant potatos are playing this game at the instant we play it. And, as long as that monkey keeps typing, the dynamics of the game WILL change, and there is nothing no person/alien/giant potatoe can do anything about it.

I look forward to debating this, as I am almost positive that there will be at least a few thousand readers disagreeing with me, and thats fine. Just have an IQ greater than 5 when trying to respond, please.

I don't agree. The popular definition of balanced fighters assumes that we aren't taking into account multiple universes.

Please inform me which of Captain Falcon's strengths make him just as balanced as Metaknight.

Also less off topic. There have been like 5-6 posts which actually respond to the question posed by the thread

 

[PillowPants]

On topic: Falco is too good imo, i no u said save Snake and MK, but Snake is INCREDIBLE, oh and G&W

Off topic: Crono Trigger > Super Mario RPG.....imo

 

[Kief]

hmm akkon what you said probably is right in regards to physics and the real world, but none of newton's laws states that people have to make video games balanced. it is 'fantasy' and all

on a side note, maybe i misled some people with the title. all i was trying to do was find the biggest gap between the high tiers, and everybody else lol.

 

[tocador]

Biggest Gap: D - E

or maybe: C - D

 

[Jaigoda]

So I could make a game where one character can destroy everything in one move and then a character that literally cannot do anything, and you're saying that somehow both are perfectly balanced? Yes, there IS a chance that DK will beat a chaingrabbing D3, but that doesn't mean the matchup is going to go 50:50 in any way.

Baed logic is baed.

 

[akkon888]

I don't agree. The popular definition of balanced fighters assumes that we aren't taking into account multiple universes.

Please inform me which of Captain Falcon's strengths make him just as balanced as Metaknight.

Also less off topic. There have been like 5-6 posts which actually respond to the question posed by the thread

Sorry about that, when I turn in to a debate gladiator I usually am off topic.

Well, as for the gaps, I'd have to say that C Tier and beyond is truly better than the rest of the cast by quite a lot. (In this universe at least) Of course, A Tier would not be... hang on, the tier list is... nevermind, A Tier would probably be a good step above the other characters. The weird thing about this method of creating tier lists is that there actually is a box that the characters must stay inside of, from 1-15, and that would not be fit for Metaknight.

And yes, that is the popular definition. What I am saying is opinion backed up by fact, that is probably questioned by most *cough*. And I am not saying that Captain Falcon and Metaknight are equal, I am just saying that our mind will, and has, evolved in a different time to counter Metaknight's strengths. Sorry if this was off topic as well

 

[Teran]

On topic: Falco is too good imo

He is very good, but he has reliable hard counterpicks