How is Project M so easy?

[Arbour Lake]

My Melee friend, keeps saying to me that Project M is so easy, now to ask all you kind Project M players. Why do Melee, or even smashers say that Project M is easier.
Thanks!

 

[FrozenHobo]

You see, when and a man loves a woman they share a special hug. Melee players don't like change. These two sentences are mutually exclusive.

 

[Foo]

Well, if you think about it from an objective standpoint, project m is inherently "easier" than melee. It requires less precise inputs, has some quality of life fixes, and there are more viable characters that are similar to jiggles (low tech skill requirement). However, as the end of the day, it's still you against an opponent. If inputs are easier, that means your opponent will have an easier time doing them as well. That means that, while PM is more forgiving, it effectively has the same difficulty in multiplayer because it has enough depth to allow for that. Unless 20XX was truly achieved, and we were able to play this game as perfectly as we play tic-tac-toe, it will always be this way.

However, the real reason melee players call it easier is mostly due to a desire to feel superior. Elitism will be apparent in pretty much any game or series.

 

[Ningildo]

I don't know. Because making l-cancels and what not easier to notice? It feels more like an excuse to bash on it more then anything else.

And, imo, PM is harder then Melee in some ways. Yes, sure, there is some extra margin for error for some tech skill related things. But then you remember you have to deal with 30+ MUs instead, CC is stronger since heavies don't get steamrolled as hard etc. Depends on what you point of view you take, really.

 

[Narpas_sword]

i find controlling my character easier because of the tools i now have. Also everything feels fluid to me in PM.

I find fighting opponents harder for two reasons:
They also have more control over their characters.
There are so many characters that the opponent may choose from.

Instead of going to a melee tourney and only thinking on how i have to deal with spacies, marth, sheik and falcon, i have to now learn more matchups on the fly.

 

[Paquito]

I don't know. Because making l-cancels and what not easier to notice?.

If that's really the reason people say it's "easier" than Melee, then they're valuing arbitrary tech-skill that's not at all related to the gameplay.

Tech-skill should only be as hard to perform as it needs to be. If an improved interface is the only fundamental difference between Melee and Project M, Project M is objectively the better game.

(This has nothing to do with whether or not someone should enjoy one over the other. Personal enjoyment is subjective, and it's always ridiculous to accuse someone of "liking the wrong thing"_

 

[shairn]

Just go play Melee and you'll understand. It's much easier to see by yourself.

 

[DrinkingFood]

People say Melee is harder because the controls are less forgiving, but they tend to forget that controlling your character properly is a low level skill to begin with; Melee having harder low level requirements is a detriment to the game's popularity with possible new players who are at that low level, not a boon to the impressiveness of high level play which is already beyond most or all the hurdles of controlling your character.

 

[Narpas_sword]

People say Melee is harder because the controls are less forgiving, but they tend to forget that controlling your character properly is a low level skill to begin with; Melee having harder low level requirements is a detriment to the game's popularity with possible new players who are at that low level, not a boon to the impressiveness of high level play which is already beyond most or all the hurdles of controlling your character.

^This

People say PMs skill ceiling is lower than Melee.
This is wrong.
What they really mean is that the skill floor is lower.

Which is a good thing

 

[QuickRat]

People say Melee is harder because the controls are less forgiving, but they tend to forget that controlling your character properly is a low level skill to begin with; Melee having harder low level requirements is a detriment to the game's popularity with possible new players who are at that low level, not a boon to the impressiveness of high level play which is already beyond most or all the hurdles of controlling your character.

And that's all. An "easier input game" is not necessarily worse. Project M is Melee with some timing homogenization between characters (specially in meteor-cancelling and wavedashing), some visual improvements (such as L-cancelling and that white bright), etc. But I cannot find any negative point in that. Actually, I find it as deep as Melee but easier to improve your skills... which is far from "bad".

 

[Sour Supreme]

People say PMs skill ceiling is lower than Melee.
This is wrong.
What they really mean is that the skill floor is lower.

This is gold. I want this on a plaque.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

...We'll see if this mentality holds after going to a few tournaments, that we will.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Execution is a bit less strict, and there are a number of characters who are more beginner-friendly. But it doesn't really make sense to describe a competitive multiplayer game as 'easy' or 'hard', because all the difficulty comes from your opponent. Anything that may seem easier to you is also easier to them, so it all cancels out.

 

[Phaiyte]

Execution isn't even really less strict unless you have input buffer turned on. PM has everything tech related that Melee has and dozens more with basically the exact same execution barrier. Everyone that says something about that 1 frame physics thing are either bull****ting themselves or were conditioned to believe it by someone else. All those ridiculous kids can be sat down real fast by just turning debug mode on and picking Fox, jumping, and airdodging on frame 4 using frame advance. Frame 4 works every time and frame 5 gives you that familiar whisper cough that Fox does when he air dodges.

The only difference between Melee tech in Melee and PM is the analog stick sensitivity.

 

[Diabolical]

PM is easier because you don't need to play a technical character to win. The game's design is to balance every character without discrimination and it means you can pick a character like Mario and spam fundamentals learned in a month's practice and beat the most technical Fox's out there. This was more apparent in 3.0 though

 

[EmLeingod]

PM is easier because you don't need to play a technical character to win. The game's design is to balance every character without discrimination and it means you can pick a character like Mario and spam fundamentals learned in a month's practice and beat the most technical Fox's out there. This was more apparent in 3.0 though

Yep, all those damn Mario players taking first place at um... umm.... which tourneys are you speaking of? Look at the top players of PM that know how to deal with each character pretty well. Hell, look at tournament results and you'll quickly find that the easy to use characters almost never make it to top 8 at majors. When's the last time a Mario main made it to top 8 at a major (even including 3.0)? It hasn't happened. Ever. M2K gets bopped like 99% of the time when he tries to pull his Mario out. Mario is an extremely easy character to learn, but one that has yet to be mastered.

If a super technical fox loses to someone who picked up Mario a month ago, they don't understand or know the MU. This is something that happens in Melee too. Look at how many top-level players lost to the low-tier Yoshi main, amsa. Yoshi is a terrible character, but they were losing to him because of a lack of MU experience. Once people began to learn the Yoshi MU, amsa's placings started to fall into obscurity. The same players regularly place well at tournaments still, it's not like we have a new top player every month. This is why your post is hilariously inaccurate.

Project M is all about MU knowledge, there's 41 MUs to learn as opposed to melee's 8(unless you wanna include low tiers). The melee players come over to PM and get rekt by stuff they don't know how to deal with and whine that the game is easy because they would rather cop-out and blame the game than learn how to play the damn game. This is not melee. You're tech skill will not carry you in this game. It's a very different game with a very different metagame. You are going to have to learn some new things for this new game. If you don't want to, fine. But don't go beating down on a game you clearly do not have the slightest understand of.

 

[Diabolical]

Mario is an extremely easy character to learn, but one that has yet to be mastered.
.

Alright, I am glad you said it so I didn't have to. Right now the game hasn't been mastered and if there are parts of the game that has, it will be Melee characters. That's why Fox mains can consistantly win tournaments without touching any of the Brawl characters.
My comment was more of a generalisation of the probable outcomes from the design choices the PMDT have made. The point that an easy to learn character like Mario should be able to easily match the most technical of characters. You said PM is all about MU's; and that will be 100% true if PM eventually balances the game to an acceptable level (PM 3.02 was not even close to balanced). Then the game would be about counter picks right? Well I am sorry but that's missing the point of what made Melee thrilling.
Melee's complexity is from the deep metagame of how to deal with immense speed from the neutral and punish game in the various ways it is applied. The fact that a turn around shine is harder to do in Melee (and any other technical mechanic) does impact the game on every level. Mango is the only consistent Fox in Melee history because of how hard it is to be technical in Melee. If Melee Fox was PM Fox then Melee wouldn't be played because it is too easy (or I should say it wouldn't be played by the same people*).
I know your point was that PM's depth is applied in different ways but the compliant that PM is too easy is a valid one for those that prefer Melee.

 

[EmLeingod]

I know your point was that PM's depth is applied in different ways but the compliant that PM is too easy is a valid one for those that prefer Melee. .

I don't understand. You're agreeing that the game is different, but are still trying to call it easier. It's not that its easier, it's that its different. Calling it easier is silly, because it's only honestly easier in one sense, less tech skill is required to do well. But it is more difficult in other areas because you must learn MUs, and in many cases there are bad MUs for characters, so you must learn multiple characters.

Melee is the flashy game, PM is the super cerebral game, both have a bit of the other, but PM has chosen to focus on one, while melee's meta game development has led it to lean towards another. There is nothing wrong with having a preference, but calling it easier is just plain wrong, and really pushes the stereo type of the Melee Elitist.

 

[Diabolical]

Melee is the flashy game, PM is the super cerebral game, both have a bit of the other, but PM has chosen to focus on one, while melee's meta game development has led it to lean towards another. There is nothing wrong with having a preference, but calling it easier is just plain wrong, and really pushes the stereo type of the Melee Elitist.

Hold it there! This is no competition! At least between you and I and the rest of this thread. This is a discussion about difficulty and complexity between two games. Don't get your emotions controlling yourself.

Personally I am giving my interpretation of what his friend meant by "easy" whether I hold that belief or not. How he probably means it is the same exact way that Brawl is an easier game to play than Melee.
Do I think the best players that play Brawl have any less talent or dedication? Generally no, not at all. But it's a fair statement to say that Brawl is an easier game to play and master. It's the mind games and decision making that separates the great from the best, not there ability to do hard tech perfectly or even simply control there character since it's easy in Brawl.
PM is an easy version of Melee if you focus on gameplay. Everyone has admitted that in this thread but they argue it only affects low level play and not the skill ceiling. My point is that it affects all levels of play obviously and Mango's Fox being the only consistent Fox ever is the best example of such.
Do I think PM is a poor game, no. But the complaint that it is too easy is valid

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Go to a few tournies and you'll reconsider.
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[PlateProp]

All you people ******** bout how tech skills is easier in PM, and i'm just sitting here like "these kids don't know **** lol"

 

[KayB]

The ability to RAR admittedly makes some things a lot easier to do in PM.

 

[Phaiyte]

I like how so many people state that PM is easier but they don't win the tournaments that they attend. None of my business though.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I like how so many people state that PM is easier but they don't win the tournaments that they attend. None of my business though.

Wha? A lower skill floor doesn't mean that people will automatically jump to the top of the game.It makes the game more accessable, but it doesn't mean that winning is simpler just because it feels easier to do things. I don't really understand the point you were trying to make.

 

[Foo]

I like how so many people state that PM is easier but they don't win the tournaments that they attend. None of my business though.

Name a game that you think is easier than melee or PM, and I guarantee you won't just go to a tournament for that game and win. You don't have to be the best at a game to call it easy/easier. For instance, call of duty is easier than counterstrike, but you won't see me in MLG. That's the same fallacious logic people use to say **** like "I bet you can't do better" when someone else
criticizes something.

And I'm saying this as someone who thinks PM isn't easier than melee and as someone who has won/topped tournaments. Good players aren't the only ones allowed to have opinions. Don't make our side of the argument look bad pls.

The ability to RAR admittedly makes some things a lot easier to do in PM.

I'm sorry, but this post really annoys me. In every area that PM has lower tech requirements, it makes the game easier and in every area PM has higher tech requirements, it makes the game easier. It really sounds like people are forming opinions not by thinking "Which is easier... hrm, well lets see..." and instead by "PM is easier than melee, now let's find reasons to justify that." Let's just say dash dancing, cc out of dash, jc grab, wavedashing and wavelanding all made melee easier than brawl. Makes as much sense.

PM is easier because you don't need to play a technical character to win. The game's design is to balance every character without discrimination and it means you can pick a character like Mario and spam fundamentals learned in a month's practice and beat the most technical Fox's out there. This was more apparent in 3.0 though

First off, that is GRADE A BULL!@#$. I know mario players with like a year of fundamentals practice that can't compete with my fox. Here's the funny thing. I don't play fox, and I suck with him. I have to focus hard to jump out of shine, let alone use it effectively. You can't just grab some random off the street, hand them a mario, and except them to be good. You can except me to four stock them with random, and I'm not even good at this game.

That argument can be put both ways. In some ways, technical skill is analogous to grinding in an MMO to get a higher level. Sit and practice it until you "level up" enough. If melee really were more technical, then that would make players able to rely on tech as a crutch to beat people, thus making it easier.

What PM actually is, is more accessible. That means newer players will have a SLIGHTLY easier time getting started, but high level play is exactly as hard. If that makes PM "easier," then GOOD. Games shouldn't have arbitrary barriers that serve no other purpose than scaring off new players. Any remotely competent player in either game knows how to do all the basic techs that PM made slightly easier, so it doesn't really matter. If anything, PM adding techs and having much more matchups you need to know makes it harder.

 

[KayB]

I'm sorry, but this post really annoys me. In every area that PM has lower tech requirements, it makes the game easier and in every area PM has higher tech requirements, it makes the game easier. It really sounds like people are forming opinions not by thinking "Which is easier... hrm, well lets see..." and instead by "PM is easier than melee, now let's find reasons to justify that." Let's just say dash dancing, cc out of dash, jc grab, wavedashing and wavelanding all made melee easier than brawl. Makes as much sense.

First of all, I'm not trying to sound or be antagonistic, so stop treating me as if I am.

Second of all, RARing isn't hard to do at all. You can debate that it isn't even an AT at all simply because the execution is so simple.

Third of all, you're looking at difficulty in a much too black and white way. Difficulty isn't limited to tech skill; more techskill doesn't necessarily mean the game is harder. In fact, tech skill can actually make the game easier, especially if the AT is not that hard to master to begin with (ex. RAR). Because I can RAR, I can back air out of a dash while launching myself forward, allowing me to cover more options faster than I normally would be able to in Melee.

By your logic, both Sm4sh and Brawl would be incredibly easy to master simply due to the lack of tech skill available in comparison to Melee, but this obviously isn't the case.

Here's an example. L-cancelling is an AT. But if it didn't exist in Melee at all, it would no doubt make the game much more difficult.

 

[Diabolical]

I like how so many people state that PM is easier but they don't win the tournaments that they attend. None of my business though.

Yeah yeah, everyone doesn't read enough of my comments to get my point. PM is easier than Melee in the same way that Brawl is easier than Melee. Doesn't mean the best in the world doesn't have talents, just means that the top Brawl players rely on decision making to be the best rather than mastering the mechanics of the game better than the rest. In Melee controlling your character is a a very skillful ability that is still being innovated all the time. In PM everything is just so easy like Brawl it's more about deciding what to do rather than how best to do it.

 

[SSBMLahti]

I believe when others say that PM is an "easier" game than Melee, they're simply referring to the execution being easier. Melee requires faster and more precise timing on inputs.

 

[Diabolical]

That argument can be put both ways. In some ways, technical skill is analogous to grinding in an MMO to get a higher level. Sit and practice it until you "level up" enough. If melee really were more technical, then that would make players able to rely on tech as a crutch to beat people, thus making it easier..

This attitude is embarrassing. I hope no one else that actually plays PM believes this. I mean you are basically saying the game should be Smash4 or Brawl but with even less tech skill because learning skill......just practicing your character is giving an unfair advantage to those that are starting out. You don't belong here if you think this way. To be good in PM and Melee requires a lot of practicing. Melee just requires much more intense training which does factor in every level of play, not just the beginners

 

[EmLeingod]

I believe when others say that PM is an "easier" game than Melee, they're simply referring to the execution being easier. Melee requires faster and more precise timing on inputs.

Then they should just say PM has easier execution, not that it's just overall easier.

 

[SSBMLahti]

Then they should just say PM has easier execution, not that it's just overall easier.

That's life man. Not everyone can explain things in a clear, concise and thorough manner. If their intent was ill, they would have worded things differently. At the same time, what "Easy" means is pretty obvious.

 

[Foo]

First of all, I'm not trying to sound or be antagonistic, so stop treating me as if I am.

Second of all, RARing isn't hard to do at all. You can debate that it isn't even an AT at all simply because the execution is so simple.

Third of all, you're looking at difficulty in a much too black and white way. Difficulty isn't limited to tech skill; more techskill doesn't necessarily mean the game is harder. In fact, tech skill can actually make the game easier, especially if the AT is not that hard to master to begin with (ex. RAR). Because I can RAR, I can back air out of a dash while launching myself forward, allowing me to cover more options faster than I normally would be able to in Melee.

By your logic, both Sm4sh and Brawl would be incredibly easy to master simply due to the lack of tech skill available in comparison to Melee, but this obviously isn't the case.

Here's an example. L-cancelling is an AT. But if it didn't exist in Melee at all, it would no doubt make the game much more difficult.

Sorry, after rereading my own post, I realize I came across as a bit of a !@#$waffle. That wasn't my intention.

Now, your second point. I'd say learning to rar is exactly as hard as learning melee dashing and the other techs that PM QOL fixed slightly. Honestly, how many are there anyway? There's dashing, shorthopping, kind of L-cancling (but not really) and that's all I can actually think of. On the other hand, there are other difficult techs like DACUS that are in PM but not melee.

For your third point, I almost completely agree. If I gave them impression that I measure difficulty purely by tech skill, I didn't mean to. I was actually trying to make the opposite point. I think that pretty much all games more advanced than tic tac toe have an unreachable skill cap, thus are equally difficult in multiplayer.

Yeah yeah, everyone doesn't read enough of my comments to get my point. PM is easier than Melee in the same way that Brawl is easier than Melee. Doesn't mean the best in the world doesn't have talents, just means that the top Brawl players rely on decision making to be the best rather than mastering the mechanics of the game better than the rest. In Melee controlling your character is a a very skillful ability that is still being innovated all the time. In PM everything is just so easy like Brawl it's more about deciding what to do rather than how best to do it.

That's not true, though. There are pretty much no techs that are in melee, but not PM (only one I can think of is parrying), but there are many techs that are in PM, and not melee. While the tech floor for PM is slightly lower, the tech ceiling is slightly higher.

You keep asserting that PM tech is so much easier than melee, but I want to see examples. The only thing I found harder to control in melee is the dash input.

This attitude is embarrassing. I hope no one else that actually plays PM believes this. I mean you are basically saying the game should be Smash4 or Brawl but with even less tech skill because learning skill......just practicing your character is giving an unfair advantage to those that are starting out. You don't belong here if you think this way. To be good in PM and Melee requires a lot of practicing. Melee just requires much more intense training which does factor in every level of play, not just the beginners

That's not my attitude (EDIT: Come to think of it, there's actually somebody I know who sees tech skill as an unfair advantage). I was simple saying that tech skill makes the game easier in some ways, and harder in others. The point about melee players using tech as a crutch was MEANT to be absurd. Just as absurd as what you said about mario. Also, I have put lots of practice into PM. I've spent hours at a time just practicing dash dancing, shffling etc. THIS is the type of thought that I have a problem with.

"Melee just requires much more intense training which does factor in every level of play, not just the beginners"

Dashing is literally the only thing significantly harder in melee and you can't even really call that a tech.

 

[Diabolical]

Dashing is literally the only thing significantly harder in melee and you can't even really call that a tech.

Every part of the game's neutral and punish game is harder in Melee because execution is harder and match-ups are more well defined. The shield metagme is probably the most significant thing PM lacks from Melee since light shielding doesn't exist and this mix up potential is huge in Melee. Without giving any more specifics I find Mango being the only consistent Fox in Melee history a perfect example of why the technical requirements of Melee is much more important than you seem to think. Try to do two turn-around waveshines into a double shine into a short hop nair shine niar double shine in PM.....I just did it! I have never been able to do that in Melee but in PM it's easy. Everything is easy in PM. At least far easier than Melee

 

[Foo]

Every part of the game's neutral and punish game is harder in Melee because execution is harder and match-ups are more well defined.

That's the not the game, that's the players. You could argue that melee is harder to succeed in because melee players are better at melee than top PM players are at PM. I'd actually agree with that point, but that's only because melee has been in a stale meta for years, and PM still is largely unfigured out.

Without giving any more specifics I find Mango being the only consistent Fox in Melee history a perfect example of why the technical requirements of Melee is much more important than you seem to think. Try to do two turn-around waveshines into a double shine into a short hop nair shine niar double shine in PM.....I just did it! I have never been able to do that in Melee but in PM it's easy. Everything is easy in PM. At least far easier than Melee

Name a consistent fox in PM, then, lol. Fox is just as technical in PM as melee. The only thing any different in the sequence you listed is turn around shine, but that's still just because melee requires harder "tap" inputs.

 

[Diabolical]

That's the not the game, that's the players. You could argue that melee is harder to succeed in because melee players are better at melee than top PM players are at PM. I'd actually agree with that point, but that's only because melee has been in a stale meta for years, and PM still is largely unfigured out.



Name a consistent fox in PM, then, lol. Fox is just as technical in PM as melee. The only thing any different in the sequence you listed is turn around shine, but that's still just because melee requires harder "tap" inputs.

Many Fox mains consistently win tournaments at national level, right? Like Zero and M2k. Last natonal was in 3.0 so if you are going to say Lucas, Mewtwo and PIt mains generally won I'd say OP more than Metanight in Brawl

 

[Foo]

Many Fox mains consistently win tournaments at national level, right? Like Zero and M2k. Last natonal was in 3.0 so if you are going to say Lucas, Mewtwo and PIt mains generally won I'd say OP more than Metanight in Brawl

Oh, I assumed you meant that they consistently preformed fox tech skill without error. What characters win has nothing to do with skill cap of a game, but has everything to do with balance and meta.

 

[Diabolical]

Oh, I assumed you meant that they consistently preformed fox tech skill without error. What characters win has nothing to do with skill cap of a game, but has everything to do with balance and meta.

My Fox comment was about Melee only. You'd expect the best character in the game to be the one getting all the top places but instead it's slower characters that generally do better because it's easier to be consistent. You can be consistent with any character in PM

 

[Paradoxium]

In melee the match ups are so much more flushed out which imo is what makes it way harder. People know what to punish, and how to punish, the only reason there aren't very many "gimmicks" in Melee is because everyone already knows how to deal with them. People also already know how to di most of the moves in melee so the comboes aren't as free.

I'm not sure about this, but i think the timings might be a little more lenient in pm. cus like, when pm fox players switch to melee they mess up a lot of inputs, but melee fox mains can transition to pm flawlessly.

 

[Strong Badam]

The ability to RAR admittedly makes some things a lot easier to do in PM.

Yeah, I'm glad the entire cast can grab the ledge quickly instead of just Melee's top 4.

 

[-Se7en-]

Yeah, I'm glad the entire cast can grab the ledge quickly instead of just Melee's top 4.

This.
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