How To Deal With Specific Enemy Moves #11----TOON LINK + SPAM

[cutter]

I'm pretty sure Din's Fire busts through the turtle from far away. GW's turtle lasts for 39 frames, so it's a committed approach. The move is still active even upon hitting the ground so don't drop your shield too early.

Also note that GW can DI back and stop his inertia when RARing with Bair. If you get caught in the turtle, SDI up and away and try to use an aerial to punish GW.

It's unfortunate for Zelda considering GW is a nightmare matchup. She just doesn't have a legitimate answer to stopping GW's turtle other than Din's Fire from far away. Once GW gets into his intermediate spacing range the turtle becomes really, really good. You could try rolling, but that is not exactly reliable due to the fact the turtle is such a longlasting move.

 

[MRTW113]

Turtle bair=nightmare
Close up, the turtle pretty much outranges all your aerials. I think if you space really well you might be alble to get him with f-smash, but I'm not really sure. Also against SH bairs, be careful of rushing him when he lands as the "landing lag" actually still has a hitbox.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

bair is too good.

you can't directly counter this if he doesn't space it poorly. either get the hell away from it or sheild it if you have enough sheild for it.

if you can get tot he other side of game and watch, that's the best option.

 

[PK-ow!]

On the move discussion thread, somebody said that ftilt can go through this.

. . . yeah, I want a vid, too. I think someone was putting one up. Hmm...
I'll edit this post with relevant things.

EDIT:

The up angled Ftilt is actually pretty good at stopping SH approaches. The combination of horizontal range and the slight upward angle make it hard to get around. I've hit G&W out of his Bair with it, which I think is pretty impressive.

That it's possible at all - even with screwed up spacing, as the case may be - is what draws me to further inquiry.

 

[-Mars-]

On the move discussion thread, somebody said that ftilt can go through this.

. . . yeah, I want a vid, too. I think someone was putting one up. Hmm...
I'll edit this post with relevant things.

EDIT:


That it's possible at all - even with screwed up spacing, as the case may be - is what draws me to further inquiry.

I'm sure fsmash has just as much priority as ftilt and the afterlag won't leave you so wide open. I can't envision ftilt being better than fsmash if your going to risk using that small window where you can hit him out of it.

 

[Niko_K]

SDI up and behind GnW and bair in between each hit.

 

[sniperworm]

Indeed I have hit G&W out of his Bair with the Ftilt, however, I DO NOT RECOMMEND TRYING IT! It takes really poor spacing on G&W's part for you to be able to accomplish it and there are better things you could do if he fails that badly at spacing (sorry no vid). The reason for the up angled Ftilt (and not Fsmash) was because he came in pretty high, so I used Ftilt on his foot.

From my experience against G&W, I believe that the G&W Bair only hits on specific frames, therefore it seems possible to sneak attacks through his wall of priority if they have enough reach/speed. For instance, I once hit G&W out of a SH Bair with a mortar slide (I hit with the beginning of the Usmash, not with the mortar). I bet no one will believe that one, I couldn't believe it either until I watched the replay (I really shouldn't have deleted it, except my Snake is so terrible I didn't want to see it anymore).

Anyway, for feasible ways of handling the Bair, there really aren't any for Zelda. Your best bet is to try to make G&W screw up. I usually try to move away from G&W a lot, trying to get him to commit to a Bair where he can't retreat away from. If he does, then you can shield grab to punish. If he starts waiting before using Bair, you can predict and try to Fair him in the face as a preemptive measure. If he always retreats Bair even if it doesn't hit you, then you can hit him with Din's with a retreating Din's glide.

But basically, yeah, it's more up to him screwing up then you really being able to do anything. Just be patient and remember to let your shield regenerate if it's low (luckily shields regen. pretty quick).

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

*sigh* G&W is the bane of Zelda's existence anyway, at least looking at his best aerial might help I suppose but I'm never gonna play my Zelda against a competent G&W. Not even switching to Sheik helps that much (then again my Sheik is terrible...)

 

[PK-ow!]

SDI up and behind GnW and bair in between each hit.

When you say 'behind' GnW, you mean "the other side of him," which is still the Mister's own front, right? Because turtle doesn't change GnW's direction?

Just making sure.

Sheik should work against the Game and Watch, shouldn't she? She seems to operate in a totally different way, whereas it seems Zelda's problem with GnW (the "bane of her existence") is that he's very much like her - disjointed hitbox, long hitboxes, aerial mobility. . . except his hitboxes are more versatile, and just as annoyingly strong, and bucket negates Din's.

. . . I suppose the game you do still have is Nayru's and Farore's. I have no idea what you would do with them, but they're all you have that isn't trumped.
Hmm. . . also your Dsmash is good quick, his is slightly slower (but more deadly, in a sense). Actually, which kills first: his Dsmash (optimal hitbox) on you, or your Dsmash on him? 'cause he's lighter.

 

[Kaffei]

Sometimes Rolling behind & hyphen u-smashes work.

;-;

 

[Bandit]

*sigh* G&W is the bane of Zelda's existence anyway, at least looking at his best aerial might help I suppose but I'm never gonna play my Zelda against a competent G&W. Not even switching to Sheik helps that much (then again my Sheik is terrible...)

I agree totally! I am picking up Marth just for this matchup as one of my secondaries. I would rather face a good metaknight than a good G&W because I can do more to disrupt metaknight than G&W. Sure, both battles are relentless but I still feel more comfortable against meta than against G&W (plus Dtilt rocks the meta world.)

 

[-Mars-]

I agree totally! I am picking up Marth just for this matchup as one of my secondaries. I would rather face a good metaknight than a good G&W because I can do more to disrupt metaknight than G&W. Sure, both battles are relentless but I still feel more comfortable against meta than against G&W (plus Dtilt rocks the meta world.)

I go Sheik against G&W. Sure it's hard as hell, but it is considerably easier than with Zelda.

Sheik gets to keep her projectile and that helps immensely in this matchup. If the G&W misses with the bair and is forced to land, I get a free needle charge for a nice 17-18%.

I can also stop most of his approaches with a SH chain. It's a little risky but as a mixup every now and again it can be invaluable

A nice thing about G&W is that you can tilt lock him for a decent amount and then finish with a tipper usmash for a quick 40%.

Sheik also avoids his kill moves fairly well if you know what you're doing.

Once I get to that 100% range, I dsmash and switch to Zelda and pray that I can get a usmash off before i'm killed.

 

[Brinzy]

What I like to do is see if I can bait G&W into using the turtle. Granted, I've fought a lot of bair spammers, but I had to find a way around all of them with Zelda. If I can predict when it's coming, I Farore's to the point where G&W was at before he started a SH-bair. The cool thing about this is that Zelda is tall enough so that I don't think there is any point where a character can SH and avoid the Farore's hitbox at any point in time, though I could be forgetting someone like ZSS.

By warping into that place, at worst for you, you could screw up and get bitten. At best, you'll hit him with the reappearance hitbox, and free hits on G&W are more than welcome. The main thing is to not take damage. As someone said, G&W's bair lasts for nearly 40 frames, which is enough time to warp and hit him. It probably seems stupid on paper, but honestly, there isn't much else that can be done (besides properly spaced Din's and maybe Nayru's... maybe).

 

[Villi]

I just played a Pikachu who used a lot of QACs and Nair and Naryu's proved to be very useful. Nair was especially useful in stopping QACs in the air and I usually felt safe spacing myself with nairs because it doesn't have nearly as much lag as upsmash and Naryu's.

Just thought I'd add that from Zelda's pov. Pikachu didn't really mention it, but it works very well and allows you to stay on the move.

 

[Kataefi]

I just played a Pikachu who used a lot of QACs and Nair and Naryu's proved to be very useful. Nair was especially useful in stopping QACs in the air and I usually felt safe spacing myself with nairs because it doesn't have nearly as much lag as upsmash and Naryu's.

Just thought I'd add that from Zelda's pov. Pikachu didn't really mention it, but it works very well and allows you to stay on the move.

Thanks villi, I'll update the OP




Any suggestions on more character moves anyone? What about:

- Marth's Dancing Blade
- Lucario's Dair
- ZSS Side B
- Bowser's Fortress and Side B
etc etc etc...

Let me know or I'll just pick them!

 

[A2ZOMG]

How to deal with G&W's B-air.

Space a Smash REALLY well.

SDI up and jump away from him or N-air if you're close enough.

If he spaces it REALLY badly, you can D-smash him out of shield if you don't get poked.

That's really it.

 

[-Mars-]

How to deal with G&W's B-air.

Space a Smash REALLY well.

SDI up and jump away from him or N-air if you're close enough.

If he spaces it REALLY badly, you can D-smash him out of shield if you don't get poked.

That's really it.

A beautiful summary, not much else you can say about it.

 

[sniperworm]

Okay, so I've been trying out the up angled Ftilt some more against my friend's G&W.

So I played against my G&W friend this weekend and I used Ftilt to beat out his Bair quite a few times (I once did it three times in one life). I was surprised at how much you could beat out the Bair (with proper timing and spacing).

To me it seems like you can beat out any SH Bair that G&W can still retreat with. If he's commited (and can't successfully retreat away from you) then you can block and punish. It takes a bit of prediction but that's what I'm thinking right now.

Anyone who has trouble with G&W should definitely try this out for themselves. Remember to angle the Ftilt upwards and try to hit with the maximum range of the Ftilt. Happy turtle hunting!

 

[Kataefi]

Really?
Is there a video of this?

I'm gonna try and test this out.

 

[Kataefi]

Bumping this thread to move onto the next move which is Lucario's Dair.

After that we'll cover Snake's Ftilt and Utilt, and revisit Marth to talk about his dancing blade or whatever it's called =)

- Okay so Lucario's dair outranges Zelda's USmash, pressures shields. He can do this move many times in one SH so it pressures very well.
- I know that Uair outranges it, but only just. But are SH uairs that reliable?

Let me know what you guys think. Not sure if this move has enough depth to really get a discussion going (like GnW's bair), so we'll speed through this and get on with the other moves.

 

[-Mars-]

Lucario players don't really use this as an approach, but they might in this particular matchup. It's mostly used to prevent juggling and to finish off combos. This move is probably most dangerous as an OoS option against Zelda.

I wouldn't be trying SH uairs against it, every once in a while but not as a surefire tactic against his dair.

 

[Samuelson]

I'm scared to use Dair against Zelda, especially when i'm at high percents. I don't risk losing a life just to do some damage.

 

[tedward2000]

I'll get more info for you mates later.

But there's two kinds of Dair's.
Under 100% and Over 100%

Both are dangerous, Over 100% can kill.
And Dair is normally used as a Chain ENDER.
-t2

 

[BurtonEarny]

I agree with both post before me. it's not a move I run up and try to hit with, I'll use it when your off stage, or to get you out from under me... thats about it. Very rarely if ever will I run up and try to use it as an aproach.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

If Lucario ends up using it on your shield, the safest option is to roll away between two of them. That gives Zelda a good spacing and protects shield. I wouldn't recommend Uair. U-smash can work, but only if Lucario gets too exited and falls too close to Zelda.

The most problems I've got with this move is when Lucario mindgames with it to get down or something like that. It also works as a way to stop Zelda's approach, but only if used sparingly.

I'm glad we also get Lucario player's input, they know the move better than us.

Edit: Don't try to spotdodge. More often that not the move still hits you when the invincibily ends or Lucario gets to attack again before you can do anything.

 

[Kataefi]

I'll get more info for you mates later.

But there's two kinds of Dair's.
Under 100% and Over 100%

Both are dangerous, Over 100% can kill.
And Dair is normally used as a Chain ENDER.
-t2

I see! If you could get us information on this that would be grand!

 

[LordoftheMorning]

What's in it for us....? >_> Nah, jk

A lucario that falls of you while Dairing is a very foolish Lucario indeed. Zelda's Usmash stops that in its tracks like a two-handed axe (usually).

Anyways, when I use Dair, most often it's in a Fair>Dair string, which works very well for damage racking at lower percents. At higher percents I switch to Fair>Nair. How to avoid.... don't get Fair'd? You might be able to out prioritize it with your Usmash if you time it right, but I'm not really sure. I've fought my share of Zelda's and I think it's happened.

Shielding doesn't always (or even usually) work because A) It's a two-hit attack and it shield-stabs well, and B) It may surprise you how many Dairs a Lucario can fit in between the place just above your head and the ground. You might drop your shield only to get Dair'd again, or the consecutive Dairs can chomp your shield, making a shield-poke more likely.

Don't try to use Nayru's Love. I've seen so many zelda's do that to try and stop Lucario from approaching. I don't know why they do it, but it just doesn't work.

Jump>immediate Dair can also be use out of shield, so watch out for that.

 

[Villi]

Yeah the fair -> dair thing is what you need to watch out for. I don't really play a lot of Lucarios but if you are in the habit of tilting your shield up, you won't get shield poked by dair and you can punish it with an upsmash out of shield.

Zelda's Up air > Lucario's Dair.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Don't try to use Nayru's Love. I've seen so many zelda's do that to try and stop Lucario from approaching. I don't know why they do it, but it just doesn't work.

Nayru has invincibility in the beginning. That´s propably why Zeldas try to use it. The problem is hard timing and Lucario´s fast Fair. It also doesn´t work against his Dair because (as you said) it hits twice: invincibility may save Zelda from first part of the attack, but the second will hit.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

if you are in position to use Uair against his Dair, then do it. if not... then just avoid it

 

[tedward2000]

Mmk, here's a little more for you guys.

A good lucario should never just flat out use Dair. Unless he's OoS'ing it (which is just jump and down-c stick), or having a techno party in the air, Dair will never be alone.

Like I said, it ends chains. Normally you'll see something like Fair>Dair. Thats the typical use of it. Boring right? I know. What you wouldn't expect is F-throw>Dair (when Zelda lands).

Im not sure if Zelda's up-tilt out beats Lucario's Dair, but her F-smash does. (someone test this, cause Im not sure)

Dair stop's lucario's momentum but it can also Edge Hog. If Zelda is hanging there, all a lucario has to do just jump right above her (or just run off) and Dair.
Aka, Zelda players, dont hang on ledges thinking your safe, cause your not.

Depending on how strong your shield is, and where Cario is placed, His Dair will weaken your shield and could skim the top of Zelda's head doing damage. This happens to most Tall characters in brawl, Could happen to Zelda too. (Sigh... again not 100% sure, someone check this too, thanks)

Now, one thing I've tested for and seen a few times with Lucario, is his Dair will hit someone way below him. Back at the lucario boards, we have NOT found an answer to this "Event", but many have noticed the "Extended Dair Hitbox".
No need to worry about this really, but reaching out with your Up-smash, missing, and somehow a Few feet higher Lucario's Dair hits you. It makes no sense really, but it happens.

um... thats a bit more info for you guys.
Enjoy.
-t2

 

[Villi]

I'm kinda doubtful that Lucario's dair shield stabs unless you are really spacing yourself to shield stab. The hitbox is large and if you come in contact with someone's shield with your hitbox, it doesn't shield stab. + Any smart Zelda will have her shield pointed up because Luc can't really shield stab you from under and it makes up smash oos a little faster.

 

[Lord Yawgmoth]

Bleh, we should have done shadowclaw instead.

That move is a beast.



I'd say just try to avoid contact with the Dair.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

I'm kinda doubtful that Lucario's dair shield stabs unless you are really spacing yourself to shield stab. The hitbox is large and if you come in contact with someone's shield with your hitbox, it doesn't shield stab. + Any smart Zelda will have her shield pointed up because Luc can't really shield stab you from under and it makes up smash oos a little faster.

I believe it does. Remember, Lucario can sometimes fit more than one Dair inbetween the place above your head and the ground. If you tilt your shield up the second Dair'll getcha from beneath. I'm pretty sure I've done this quite a few times. The best way is to roll in between/before the Dair(s) and punish.

 

[Villi]

If you don't shield stab on the first try, I'll punish it with an out of shield attack.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Remove the Mewtwo jokes. >_>

 

[Kaffei]

Lucario's d-air is ugly.

Run away pls.

 

[Kataefi]

Bleh, we should have done shadowclaw instead.

That move is a beast.



I'd say just try to avoid contact with the Dair.

Cool! We'll cover that move when we come back to Lucario so I'll keep that in mind. I just thought Dair was one of Luc's most useful moves and countering that would be useful for us! >.>

Also... does anyone want to vote for any more moves they're having trouble with? If not the next will be Snake's Ftilt, Utilt and Grenade Camping...

I must update the OP soon :[

 

[-Mars-]

Remove the Mewtwo jokes. >_>

Was that really necessary? Anyone with half a brain could have read the original post and concluded this wasn't a bad thread.

 

[Villi]

omg no plz