Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[PseudoTurtle]

^ what he said

Anything you wanna practice on the ledge should be done on hyrule temple until you master it. Then you can go to battlefield for the left side.

 

[Divinokage]

Playing a video game? Imagine that.

Best video game, rofl.

 

[-ACE-]

It's also good to get used to using your ledge options AS SOON AS YOU GRAB LEDGE.

Obviously there's the invincibility, so it's great practice for that, but more importantly, people aren't ready for it. Once you've grabbed ledge and double jump regrabbed it a few times refreshing your invincibility, a good player is going to have a read on when you get up. Obviously your options are limited because he knows you're going to use a ledge option immediately after one of your ledge regrabs for the INV frames. This is where you may have to mindgame him with something first (RLD, ledgehop sh ff fair offstage regrab, ledgehop then wd back to ledge, etc) and then attack/acquire center stage. But, had you used a ledge option immediately in the beginning, he most likely wasn't ready for it. Practice until you can do whatever you want from ledge as soon as you grab it, even during high-stress recovery situations. Be ready to grab ledge. It's kind of like being ready for a edge cancel before it happens.

Divinokage has Ryan Ford picked up on your jabs at 40-50% after dthrow? Can't remember but I thought I saw him wait to tech after the jab. Has he forced you to stop using that "gimmick" or are you still getting mileage out of it?

 

[Oldiz]

Nope. I used my 20XX debug mode version 1.02 which has nair coming out on frame 20-21. I think you're just counting the frames he has until he lands, I'm counting when he lands and those 5 frames of landing lag that he gets whenever he lands, cause you can't dash or attack out of those frames.

Nair autocancel frame 23, that means there is one aerial frame without hitbox + regular landing lag (isn't that 4 for everyone?). Either way it's still 5/6 frames left vulnerable.

 

[Diosama]

pls no civil war

we need to stick together

 

[-ACE-]

LOL. Thank God ACE is here to make sense of this. Generalizations are wrong. There is no hierarchy. Everyone mentioned there is good. Ian is one of the best also, he just didn't mention himself.

And I'd MM any of them because they're all scrubs.

Edit: LOL, it's just funny when I hear people generalize about spider sense and linguini when I actually play them a lot. Until everyone plays a ton of sets no one will know who's the best.

 

[Coastward]

everyone on the smash reddit are ****ing IDIOTS LMAO

 

[-ACE-]

YO KAGE ONCE LOST A FRIENDLY TO GVICE AKA A PHENOMENAL GANON PLAYER HE'S TRASH KAPPA

 

[Divinokage]

YO KAGE ONCE LOST A FRIENDLY TO GVICE AKA A PHENOMENAL GANON PLAYER HE'S TRASH KAPPA

The only time I lost a Ganon ditto is vs Chaddd when I was still getting better. After that I don't think i've lost any Ganon ditto. I'd MM you anytime if you want.

 

[spider_sense]

The only time I lost a Ganon ditto is vs Chaddd when I was still getting better. After that I don't think i've lost any Ganon ditto. I'd MM you anytime if you want.

You do realize he plays with me on the daily right Kage? Ace is actually getting VERY good at the Ganon mu. Placing side bets on Dave. $1. I'd MM you too, but next time let's not have one of your fan (****) bois take you off the elevator. You can't hide forever warrior.

 

[-ACE-]

Next national for sure. Answer your phone this time!

spider_sense not sure if he got my sarcasm. All caps is usually broken strat

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Nair autocancel frame 23, that means there is one aerial frame without hitbox + regular landing lag (isn't that 4 for everyone?). Either way it's still 5/6 frames left vulnerable.

It's 4 frames for everyone except for Ganon (5), Link (5), and Bowser (6 or 7).

I could be a little off on that but yeah. Ganon has an extra frame of landing lag rofl

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

pls no civil war

we need to stick together

why stick together when drama can be started? seems to be the modern smasher rhetoric.

i gave my opinion. nobody had to take it seriously or make a big deal out of it. i'll continue to give my opinions and people will, most likely, continue to give me **** for them because i apparently have a myriad of unpopular opinions. all good though.

here's a good one. i think ganondorf only significantly loses against 3.5 characters (.5 because i haven't decided on falcon yet). aside from fox, sheik, and jigglypuff, i'm pretty confident that ganondorf goes even with or at the very least has a very close matchup with every other good character in the game.

 

[Divinokage]

You do realize he plays with me on the daily right Kage? Ace is actually getting VERY good at the Ganon mu. Placing side bets on Dave. $1. I'd MM you too, but next time let's not have one of your fan (****) bois take you off the elevator. You can't hide forever warrior.

Doing a MM at EVO isnt the best idea. =P

 

[Diosama]

I can agree with that one, as well as respect your forementioned opinion. While nodoby had to take it seriously, there is a chance that it can be taken seriously. I just prefer to be more optimistic, so I wouldn't say something of the sort. But that's me, you do your thing, Ian.

Fox and Sheik will always be tough. Falco is difficult for me but we've all seen that Linguini can roast that bird. Puff, and Peach I suppose, can definitely be advantageous for Ganon. Falcon and Marth only slightly win atm, so with a little work, they can be even.

Ganon's got a bright future, it's up to us to fulfill it.

 

[F. Stein]

Hope that future gets brighter and goes well for ya'll lol.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Why would the DemonKing of darkness want a bright future tho?

 

[Swagic]

why stick together when drama can be started? seems to be the modern smasher rhetoric.

i gave my opinion. nobody had to take it seriously or make a big deal out of it. i'll continue to give my opinions and people will, most likely, continue to give me **** for them because i apparently have a myriad of unpopular opinions. all good though.

here's a good one. i think ganondorf only significantly loses against 3.5 characters (.5 because i haven't decided on falcon yet). aside from fox, sheik, and jigglypuff, i'm pretty confident that ganondorf goes even with or at the very least has a very close matchup with every other good character in the game.

I wouldn't even say that many. I'd count Puff at .5. I consider them counters to each other, because the first one to make a mistake loses a stock, and usually a one stock advantage is all it takes in that one.

 

[Diosama]

I wouldn't even say that many. I'd count Puff at .5. I consider them counters to each other, because the first one to make a mistake loses a stock, and usually a one stock advantage is all it takes in that one.

That's a very generous statement. One could say the same about the Sheik mu, but we know it isn't that close to even.

 

[F. Stein]

Yeah I just got stomped by someone's secondary. Went on tilt, pitched a game to a noob marth and left. Commentators rubbed the loss in my face. Depressing to say the least. Nothing seems safe against shiek.

 

[Swagic]

That's a very generous statement. One could say the same about the Sheik mu, but we know it isn't that close to even.

Sheik is much harder to kill than Puff. Get a dair into a fair on puff and that's an edgeguard. Whiffed rest is the stock. Both have a one-hit kill on each other, and Puff is one hit from death over 40% on Yoshi's. It is a generalization, but the punishes in that MU are worse (on both sides) than the Ganon ditto. I'd call Puff a very soft counter. The way Eikelmann was talking assumed the Ganon was at a level comparable to the opponent. If a Ganon player was at Hbox's skill level, I do honestly think it would probably go even, MAYBE 55-45 at worst. I know this is a lot of theory, so let's see about getting some Ganons to that level so we can test it.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Ganon is fine vs Puff until he's sent off stage. Then it's just hopeless for him. He can get hella comboed though. Hungrybox just carries Ganon off stage any time he can rofl.

I'm pretty convinced if you never let Falcon grab you, that Ganon just wins. like 90% of Falcon's punishes start from a grab or something like that. Ganon hits Falcon pretty hard and edgeguards him to no end. I personally love the matchup because of all the tools Ganon has to counter Falcon's stuff.

 

[-ACE-]

Puff is a bad mu I'm with Ian.

 

[-ACE-]

Divinokage has Ryan Ford picked up on your jabs at 40-50% after dthrow? Can't remember but I thought I saw him wait to tech after the jab. Has he forced you to stop using that "gimmick" or are you still getting mileage out of it?

Divinokage

 

[SwiftNinjaBlackMan]

What would be the best choice right when you hear the Ding from Fox/Falco's side b?

 

[-ACE-]

What would be the best choice right when you hear the Ding from Fox/Falco's side b?

Reverse uair. Fair technically reaches very low but it is NOT RELIABLE. So hard to time that one frame of fair hitbox. Bair is good for when you hear that "ding" and he's not sweetspotting. It's all about positioning your jump perfectly

Edit: also, I think you paused a frame early on the uair. It reaches slightly lower than that pic.

 

[Waldoring]

If he's going for a sweetspot, only the uair spike will hit. However, if he's going slightly higher, bair is faster to set up as is ftilt. If he goes onstage, you probably don't have time to set up anything, so jab on reaction is your best bet.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Yeah upair can definitely reach way lower than that. It's not a sweetspot killer for nothing rofl

 

[-ACE-]

Dair destroys sweetspots don't forget

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Ian, I might have to agree with you on that one (if by bad, you mean higher than 6-4). I would have put Falcon there as well, but when I think about it, I can't remember the last time I've lost to a Falcon who's worse than me, whereas it happens all the time with sheiks / foxes.

And I'd probably put any of the FL ganons in the upper tier in the ditto. I've personally played Ian in tournament. Dude beat me and I'm no scrub at the ditto... And Ian wasn't even SFL, where the real ganon action is at.

And yo I used to pretty much disregard dair near the ledge as an edge guard option because of teching and ****, but:

1. They're not likely to meteor cancel that ****
2. If they tech, the safest option is to air dodge on stage (example incoming). Their other options are to tech into another up-b / side-b (another example incoming)

Edge cancelled dair can beat all of these things theoretically, right? Then just react with ledge hop up air if they air dodge on stage or up-b? Just hold ledge if you hear the side-b ding.

Keep in mind I've never actually DONE this, just a theoretical sort of thing. Seems reasonable to me lol

 

[Swagic]

Dair destroys sweetspots don't forget

The look of despair when you stomp the sweetspot... It's BEAUTIFUL

 

[-ACE-]

Edge cancel dair works and is sick, even facing forwards. You can dashjump dair, edge cancel (hit them), and analog dj backwards. Unpunishable, and sometimes it's one of the few things you have time for (although perfect wd forward to low ftilt is really good).

 

[X WaNtEd X]

why stick together when drama can be started? seems to be the modern smasher rhetoric.

i gave my opinion. nobody had to take it seriously or make a big deal out of it. i'll continue to give my opinions and people will, most likely, continue to give me **** for them because i apparently have a myriad of unpopular opinions. all good though.

here's a good one. i think ganondorf only significantly loses against 3.5 characters (.5 because i haven't decided on falcon yet). aside from fox, sheik, and jigglypuff, i'm pretty confident that ganondorf goes even with or at the very least has a very close matchup with every other good character in the game.

I'm confused. Where exactly is this drama?

 

[-ACE-]

I'm confused. Where exactly is this drama?

Another Ganon **** measuring contest lol

 

[F. Stein]

That seems to happen a lot.

So, where can I read about, or have explained to me, what exactly I need to do to crush shiek under my feet and make people never pick her again? I understand that I have a chain grab, I am decent at that. Nothing seems safe on shield, is this an illusion? Edgeguarding when she doesn't have a tag, how does this work? If at any point I don't feel good about the chain grab what are safe followups after the downthrow?

 

[-ACE-]

Swagic, tell him where all the sheik posts are at. LOL jk

Ground game is big. Get a read on ftilt, jab, and dash attack habits because those land you easy grabs. Abuse uair when he jumps or takes a plat. Bair too. AC bair is a good bait, so is wL away.

Good sheiks will sometimes fair the top half of your shield to bait a grab so they can just dd grab you. sh dair OoS bodies this if you read it.

 

[Divinokage]

Divinokage

Well theres always more ways to make his tech fail just even from a stray jab or downtilt. At this point im actually counting on his "optimal" viewed gameplay to punish him badly. He plays a basic style when you think about it so the way to beat that is well timed jabs and tilts then as soon as he respects those enough hes going to start to full hop. When that happens its easy to react with uair. I dont believe hes going to miss a regular tech because he can SDI also however because of that its possible to go for the grab setup. So the mindgame here is that if he got the DI hes likely gonna go for a defensive move to avoid grab so i can double jab instead or follow the roll but i think he only rolls on knockdown so ya... lol

 

[-ACE-]

Divinokage I mean after a dthrow. Those neutral game scenarios are so legit tho

 

[Bwmat]

That seems to happen a lot.

So, where can I read about, or have explained to me, what exactly I need to do to crush shiek under my feet and make people never pick her again? I understand that I have a chain grab, I am decent at that. Nothing seems safe on shield, is this an illusion? Edgeguarding when she doesn't have a tag, how does this work? If at any point I don't feel good about the chain grab what are safe followups after the downthrow?

For edge guarding, normal getup from ledge is OP if timed right. Either she goes on stage, and you get a free aerial/grab, or she goes up and you can jab/ftilt/fsmash her back off.

Her safest option is probably to land on a platform if possible, but you can punish that as well.

 

[-ACE-]

Her safest option is probably to land on a platform if possible, but you can punish that as well.

OH YEAH BABY