Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Divinokage]

Yeah but you're only one Ganon lol, it works both ways. Just because you're the best currently doesn't mean your personal records vs certain players completely dictate Ganon's matchup probabilities.

Maybe not but Ganon is ass, I don't see any other Ganons doing it either, it's not going to happen anytime soon that's for sure. It's also not like you can just say that Sheik suddenly can't combo Ganon because someone would know the matchup better, you just can't escape it. These are the rules of the game.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Kage you watch, next top ganon coming through! You heard it first here folks.

But seriously I'm getting good (at least I am in the Midwest)

 

[Double Helix]

Kage you watch, next top ganon coming through! You heard it first here folks.

But seriously I'm getting good (at least I am in the Midwest)

Where in the Midwest? I seriously need more people to face. It is so dead in southern Illinois.

Anyways...about the Sheik matchup...how do you approach the matchup? It seems like it'd be one where you would have to wait for a lot of mistakes, and in a world where mistakes are few when the matchup is favorable, it seems ridiculous. I feel more in control after getting grabbed by Ice Climbers than when facing Sheik...it is just that awful. (Note: I was playing Ness at the time, but it doesn't really matter)

As Ganondorf, how do you really punish and space well against our needle throwing, long legged princess? She may not be the Hero of Time, but she could have stopped Ganondorf for sure man.

 

[Superspright]

Try powershielding the needles. It can interrupt her in the air when she does falling ones--buffer a jump OoS and uair her for free. It's a timing thing because they are too hard to see. You'll have to get used to it, but needles are usually used in a short-hop fashion, and powershielding can reverse the whole momentum on her projectiles. Do not get grabbed by sheik which is harder than it sounds...if you can bait dash attacks you can definitely get some punishes, but a lot of sheiks just play the safe tilt poke game instead. It's an uphill battle with no manual. It's mainly dependent on the play style of the sheik you are playing. It becomes a very dangerous game of RPS but shiek can throw her option faster...so you really have to make some good reads.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Oooooor you can just watch her movement if you can't powershield on command. Like if your opponent dash dances a lot, play patiently and wait for that dash attack. Throwing out a bair is good (not the fast one, a falling one) because it covers dash attack if they do it, OR it can bait a dash attack, which sets you up to d-ftilt.

if your sheik is mostly in the air, this is easy. They will be campy and never approach, so you can run forward and wait for the full hop retreating fair, then uair after that, you'll probably trade tho (this is a good thing).

 

[-ACE-]

Maybe not but Ganon is ***, I don't see any other Ganons doing it either, it's not going to happen anytime soon that's for sure. It's also not like you can just say that Sheik suddenly can't combo Ganon because someone would know the matchup better, you just can't escape it. These are the rules of the game.

I realize Ganon is ass. I realize no other Ganons are doing it, I already said you are the best right now. Dude you are acting like I said sheik was an easy matchup or something, just stop that bull**** ok. Fukc man rofl. Reread what I said maybe?

Against sheik spacing has to be key. You have to play the player, use the right aerials at the right time, and you have to bait her and dodge needles. The best punish possible at 0% is dair to grab (usually if you bait a dash attack). On FD that's a stock, on other stages you get a free platform techchase and a relatively easy edgeguard if you're good at pressuring sheik's options before she uses her dj/up-b. But that is where tech skill and a bit of flashiness comes into play. You can use her ignorance of Ganon's capabilities to create openings, and then make the best of those opportunities. Every matchup in this game is winnable.

 

[LoOshKiN]

I too felt more confident going against foxes than sheiks. I feel less confident going against falcos than foxes though.
I mean I know it's easier to chaingrab sheik than fox but at least foxes have approach options they'll use whereas sheiks don't. No sheik should approach. Only zone, corner, and space slaps tilts and grabs. geegus.

 

[Superspright]

With 100% chaingrab and near perfect edge-guards shiek is a 60-40. She can get her death combo off slightly easier, but it's sad that that is what the match up truly devolves into at the end of the day. If you maximized your potential you'd go for a chaingrab into kill every chance you get. Why transmute anything else? Her recovery sucks and is predictable and the chaingrab is a reliable way to get 0-75%.

Humans don't do that though...so this match up blows. I wonder if it's just a match up we should forget about, because even with perfect play it might not be winnable against the good options that sheik has.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

You can use her ignorance of Ganon's capabilities to create openings, and then make the best of those opportunities. Every matchup in this game is winnable.

basically this.

so ganondorf vs sheik. this is how i see it.

don't use fair much unless you're 100% sure it'll hit. otherwise you're probably grabbed after.

space with bair and titls/jab

if you think they're going to dash attack (bad sheiks will use dash attack at pretty ****ty times) you can time full hop dair and it'll **** em up real well

practice cg like crazy. don't drop cg vs sheik. play gay as ****, etc.

when sheik is above you, just spam uair (well not really but yeah) like crazy cause wtf is she going to do, seriously.

and then for edgeguarding, just ledge grab stall and time it so that sheik will go into a bad recovery position ( sheik up-b is super vulnerable on stage)

that's all basic matchup stuff for bottom/low/mid tier sheik players.

high/top tier sheik players are a completely different story.

matchup is definitely winnable if you can surprise your opponent/get good reads and mixups. look at it like this: how many ganondorfs are there in the world that sheik players get to practice against? surely there are more sheiks available for us ganondorf players, so we should basically be aware of all the lame, wack **** she can do and we should be able to adapt accordingly.

use gimmicks sparingly, mix **** up, and don't get greedy. the matchup will feel a lot easier, i promise.

and no pride ****. i can't believe any ganondorf wouldn't cg vs sheik. pretty bad idea imo.

 

[Divinokage]

The problem is if Sheik lands a grab which is highly likely if you start throwing out aerials, then you lose the stock... lol. All she has to do is get in either under you or wait for a laggy move, she's much faster than you on the ground as well, her tilts have deceptive range, it's pretty annoying to deal with. You can't really punish a tilt that hits your shield reliably, then if you jump at this situation you'll get hit out of it or get comboed hard. The main problem with this matchup is that she can create easy opportunities to hit you and when she does, she can kill you pretty much guaranteed without too much trouble.

It's almost like whatever you can do, she can do better. lol. But if you can ride the momentum and make her whiff then you have to punish her whiffed attacks.. basically almost the only way you'll catch her. Basically what I'm saying is that YOU as a person has to make her do dumb stuff, move around a lot and only use faster attacks.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

yeah, covered that. bair is pretty safe, so i stick to just bair the majority of the time.

 

[Superspright]

uair can be good as well, but bair is definitely a safer option if you are zoning. That matchup is impossible without the CG...with the CG it is winnable, but our play does have to be particularly superb for each match to really not fall of somewhere. Sheik has at least 1 or 2 more options at every point in the matchup...we have to reliably predict or cover everything quickly. It's not easy, and I feel like this might be the matchup that breaks Ganon from really making it to GF at a big tournament. With edge-cancels, and shield-dropping he might be even more dangerous and close the gap but no one's really doing it all that consistently or all that much to see its effects.

 

[-ACE-]

To clarify, I just read supersprights point that the sheik matchup is the matchup that stops Ganon from getting to GF and I agree. But that is because mediocre sheiks are still dangerous. When Ifinally come to the conclusion that Fox is worse for Ganon I am talking about highest level. For all intents and purposes, sheik is the worst. But a fox that knows how to really fight Ganon is a HUGE pain in the ass at high level. To me falco is even harder than fox at lower skill levels, falco has it easier. Bottom line it's hard to play fox the way he should be played for an extended period of time, but it's possible and people do it. Nothing is harder than beating near-perfect Fox. And that basically goes for any character that isn't marth on FD.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I like marth on fd. It's the only time ever I even remotely like fd. **** that stage.

 

[Upke]

Yeah, with Zelda and most characters really, I like to take Marth to FD, because **** those platform uptilt shenanigans.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah true... probably only fox and falco have it bad there really.

 

[Divinokage]

Without platforms as Ganon I feel pretty helpless, less setups ftl. =(

 

[Upke]

Alternatively, I also go DL. His uptilt can still get through sometimes, but it's not as encompassing and his fsmash doesn't reach. That and I feel really comfortable wavelanding on those platforms for whatever reason.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Yea DL is good vs marth I think. I really like uair out of shield vs marth as well, don't really know why I only just started to use it as an answer to his spaced nair shield pressure, but it can trade or even win if you get it out faster than your opponent. It really has kind of changed the matchup for me in a lot of ways. That was easily the matchup that took me the longest to learn so far (still working heavily on spacies, I'm sure that will be THE longest), but I really enjoy playing marths, especially those with mediocre grab games.

 

[Superspright]

Gotta be more afraid of the DD happy ones that know how their DD works at an intuitive level i.e. using it to parry attacks. It is very effective against Ganon because all of his rising aerials duck below (or are grotesquely slow (dair)] his retreating dash [dashing away] and it beats his jab, and ftilt (except for downward ftilt, but that has less range) if spaced properly. If a Marth really knows what they are doing they can bait the crap out of you and do whatever they want. It's not an easy match up if the Marth knows how to bait like that--also mix in ftilts, fsmashes and lots of dtilts for good measure because dtilt ducks below a lot of his moveset as well.

The better the Marth's get the safer their aerials get and the more DD happy they get. I suggest you learn pivot ftilts, and other safe ground options before you start learning how to parry aerial options because sometimes it just will look safe, and it won't be...because I am pretty sure Marth can touch a lot of shields and get away with it. Especially given the fact it takes 8 frames to leave the ground for Ganon. Even with a -10 shield hitstun we only have 2 frames to react on him, and that's not enough given he can start dashing before you even get the uair's hitboxes out even if he's ontop of you.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Dude, dash dancing with marth is not that difficult to get around lol, fox/falcon definitely have a better DD. With marth, I usually just don't approach- almost never. You can bait out an approach simply by jumping. Even a patient marth will have some sort of switch flick on when ganon is in the air, even if all they do is a retreating nair. I like to full hop when marth gets close, just in case he wants to do a wavedash forward fsmash/dtilt, you can react to it with a fair, and the full hop will avoid the fsmash.

Yes, I admit that the gayer the marth plays, the harder it is to beat, but by no means is it unbeatable. Little England is thinking about switching to marth, and we were going very even in friendlies at evo, so its not like I'm just talking out of my ass here, the dude beat kage after all.

That said, his blue bird still has the advantage over my dorf lol.

 

[Divinokage]

Falco is just gay to play against, no matter the level.

 

[Ripple]

Dude, dash dancing with marth is not that difficult to get around lol,
.

need I link to our videos?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Words cannot describe how vastly I have improved since then. Lol dude I recently watched some of our old videos, I was disgusted hahaha.

It's so agrevating that I still do better against dart than you -.-

 

[Superspright]

Did you miss the part where I explained that his DD ducks underneath your entire moveset except for low ftilt and dtilt? Did you forget that part? Kage doesn't impress me as much as he impresses others.

 

[Divinokage]

Did you miss the part where I explained that his DD ducks underneath your entire moveset except for low ftilt and dtilt? Did you forget that part? Kage doesn't impress me as much as he impresses others.

If he DDs then that's where you slowly choke his space just by having your presence there. You can be in the range where he cant grab effectively then you can trap him pretty well. You dont have to do anything super fancy, just be a big tank, walk forward and be ready for an attack. Im not sure why you said the last part though?

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

I had a 2 stock comeback against Alan's sheik round one of apex, god damn ganon made me proud that day.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

Oh and superspright, stfu. Ganon legends demand respect, u aren't one, so stop talking outta ur ass. Eddie, joe bushman, not tip man cuz he tried to steal the Eddie spike like a ******, and kage are the only ganon legends. Oh **** and linguini.

 

[Divinokage]

That crew battle at Pound 3 with Joe Bushman, it was then it made me want to go on the big stage. It was pretty awesome.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

Ya where he ***** wobbles on fd

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

Midwest always stayed I'm those crews somehow

 

[PseudoTurtle]

It's cuz Midwest > the rest. Troll, you going to big haus?

 

[Superspright]

Ganon legends demand respect? Cool story bro. He's one of the least technical Ganons ever--and he does go far at times but he hasn't most recently because he's been figured out and Ganon isn't an issue for the best. If he was more technical perhaps he'd have more tricks and could resurface as a really strong player. He can't chaingrab, and he doesn't waveland much or use all his ledge options. He's more cookie cutter than the other Ganons I've seen--he has a really solid game, but it could be so much better. He just doesn't do it all. My criticism isn't meant to be a scathing retort either. It's just the truth. He's a great player--but could be a lot better if he worked on a few things. But, he doesn't see them as relevant to his 'style'.

 

[Divinokage]

Umm.. i abandoned my style a long time ago. I've been trying to improve my game constantly, sorry if im not consistent enough to your liking. If you don't like how I play, then do it yourself if that's easy. Play top players and see if you can 100% block everything and counter-attack with 100% accuracy then not die as Ganon off-stage.

Also, going to toronto right now. Gonna go face those dudes and improve my game further.. It's gonna be nice practice that's for sure.

 

[Superspright]

You've openly denied certain things being useful only to use them later. I'm just pointing out some facts. In your match against Hax you were powershielding nearly everything he was doing and getting great punishes for it. Shortly before that you said powershielding wasn't that useful for Ganon...you also said edge-canceling wasn't super useful, and then I start seeing you use it for baits...are you going to chaingrab now? You said that wasn't useful for you either. Maybe if I keep berating you you'll learn everything and kick everyone's ass again.

Also, I work on not going off stage at any cost. I'd rather get hit and CC and snap ledge and give up space then be off stage. That's mainly how I try to improve my Ganon--just not being off stage or above my opponent unless it's necessary.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

Lol stfu kid

 

[-ACE-]

I disagree with Sheik and Cpt.Falcon hard as **** for Ganon. It's not that bad. like 50-50.

opinions change lol

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Yo the reason kage is impressive is because he's not overly flashy, but very smart. I could out-flash kage any day of the week, but he is a way better player because he has better spacing and decision making, etc.

Dude, once you start making good decisions, that's when you become a good player.

 

[Superspright]

Using 10 great options > Using 20 great options.

It's not about flash. He doesn't do ledge-drop uair regrab ever...or reverse ledge-dashes for baits so he can safely get back onto stage. These are just things he's said he feels are unsafe, or aren't necessary--but do you hear Mango or any other players saying that an option they have is totally useless, or deserves no play in their style? Come on now.

He doesn't chain grab even though it's free. I didn't see wobbles saying oh I shouldn't wobble...I don't really care if people disagree with me. I know what the character can do--we all do. No one here is doing it all, so he keeps falling down the tiers.

And good decisions come with experience--and he's been to tournaments forever, and travels a lot more than probably any other Ganon period.

 

[Double Helix]

It really depends on how well you use those great options. Aside from that glaring wrong statement, didn't he just say he abandoned the very style you are being so critical of? Maybe his placement is low BECAUSE he is trying to incorporate all the things you said he does not do into his game. Kage has been playing for awhile, and habits are hard to break, things are tough to incorporate, etc., but while I can't speak for him, I can say we should all know by now that tier lists mean very little. While they are partially based on recent tournament results, that doesn't mean that they are correct.

It is also pretty unfair to compare his lack of chain grabs to Wobbles. Wobbles practiced wobbling more than Kage practiced chain grabbing. Something that is generally a better option becomes a worse option if you suck at it, and if Kage isn't comfortable with the chain grab then not doing so (in tournament) becomes the better option.

I am not saying that anything I said right now is accurate to what Kage is able to do, because honestly I have no idea. But unless you DO know, there is no reason for you to say that chain grabbing is the best option FOR KAGE.

Now for something on topic: in terms of Marth's DD, I have found empty short hops to be a decent way to approach. They try to use an aerial because Ganon is in the air, then you shield and punish the lag. I personally love shielding or spot dodging a fair then uairing.