Hybrid Air Dodge (HAD) *Thread is CLOSED!-- For Ever*

[zxeon]

That is complete BS and you know it. You can't say that ppl will go back to melee without wavedashing like they are junkies needing a fix. We already had many high playing melee players who already said they like the original air dodge. Your just in denial...

Yeahhh duuude! We got The Cape MAN! WE GOT THE CAPE! He's gonna bring in MORE people. If The Cape didn't like BAD, then we'd know fo' sho'. But, he likes BAD the way it is! WHOAMGWTFBBQHAX!!!!

Edit: I'm being serious, I'm just typing in a cool way.

You two sure are angry today. Could you dial it down? This is borderline trolling.

 

[the_judge]

You still have your BAD's, so why are you complaing?

Wavedash is not that big of a deal.

 

[CountKaiser]

Ummm, why is this necessary?

All this HAD does is bring in a directional air dodge and bring back wavedashing. Usually, after one air dodge, most people won't have time to perform another as they will have hit the ground by then, so the fact that BADs exist after the initial MAD is almost a moot point.

All I see this doing is buffing recoveries even more(like they need a buff) and substantially changing the air game in an undesirable fashion. Not to mention that heavy characters get a huge buff from the wavedashing.

Why is it necessary?

 

[storm92]

You still have your BAD's, so why are you complaing?

Wavedash is not that big of a deal.

Again I reiterate.
BAD is not spammable with hitstun!

Edit:
Kaiser, it's not.
Or well, about half or more of the community agree its not.

 

[kupo15]

You two sure are angry today. Could you dial it down? This is borderline trolling.

lol, since when did being angry equal trolling?

This is more like trolling:

Besides Fox and a few other chars in Melee, wavedash was not really necessary. I play Falco in Melee and never use it.
.

Fox doesn't need wavedashing? Ha. Ever heard of waveshining?

 

[storm92]

I play Falco in Melee and never use it..

You're kidding, right?
You have to waveshine as Falco in Melee to combo effectively on spacies...

Edit:
Also, one of your posts said "I see now you don't support WD because of your mains".
Don't be ignorant and assuming, one of my mains is Weegee and I'm arguing against WDing.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Besides Fox and a few other chars in Melee, wavedash was not really necessary. I play Falco in Melee and never use it.

wow. why is it 90% of the people who support wavedashing don't know wtf they're talking about? can't you guys get someone who has a clue?

 

[the_judge]

Again I reiterate.
BAD is not spammable with hitstun!

Edit:
Kaiser, it's not.
Or well, about half or more of the community agree its not.

But you still have it, the main problem I say is the 4th jump issue.

lol, since when did being angry equal trolling?

This is more like trolling:



Fox doesn't need wavedashing? Ha. Ever heard of waveshining?

How do you waveshine?
Shine -> wavedash -> another shine.
He probably didn't NEED it but it helped his game alot.

 

[storm92]

But you still have it, the main problem I say is the 4th jump issue.


How do you waveshine?
Shine -> wavedash -> another shine.
He probably didn't NEED it but it helped his game alot.

Waveshining opened up tons of new options for him.
It definitely helped him get the top spot.

4th jump issue comes from the directional AD lalalala.

 

[Sonic Phantom]

But you still have it, the main problem I say is the 4th jump issue.


How do you waveshine?
Shine -> wavedash -> another shine.
He probably didn't NEED it but it helped his game alot.

wavedash -> shine -> wavedash -> shine if Fox

wavedash -> shine -> pillaring if Falco

 

[petre]

this is similar to the issue people have with banning things.

IF IT'S NOT BROKEN WHY FIX IT?

there wasn't really a need to change the BAD.

also lol @ falco not wavedashing.

 

[Revven]

lol, Luigi's fall animation in Brawl (his head getting stuck into the ground) after a MAD screw him over for using the AD as a defensive aerial maneuver. He has to WD if he is going to use MAD if at all and one minor slip up leaves him begging for punishment. BAD is better for Luigi mains, no huge landing lag after the AD.

Just wanted to tell you that, MAD has been fixed since then and no longer uses falling animations from their Up B. It just uses their general falling animation and restricts to do anything after it (except in HAD, this is different, you can do ANYTHING after MAD).

The reasons why I don't want HAD:

1) Nerfs ledge game (when we set the goal to FIX the ledge game so we could actually EDGEGUARD!!)
2) Nerfs air game
3) Buffs recoveries
4) Needs more tweaking to WD'ing that doesn't even make it worth it to do.
5) BAD isn't borked with hitstun

Need I say moar?

 

[zxeon]

lol, since when did being angry equal trolling?

This is more like trolling:



Fox doesn't need wavedashing? Ha. Ever heard of waveshining?

You're kidding, right?
You have to waveshine as Falco in Melee to combo effectively on spacies...

Good point guys.

 

[CountKaiser]

Can someone tell me why HAD is needed? I don't think I've seen anyone defend it with a reason as of yet

 

[Revven]

Can someone tell me why HAD is needed? I don't think I've seen anyone defend it with a reason as of yet

We have to wait for the reason, it's not here yet according to zxeon the almighty prophet.

 

[the_judge]

The game was never broken, several ppl just didn't like how it lacked the competitive edge.

So not even a year later we're trying to fix it to give it a competitive edge.
If it makes the game more interesting then by all means I'm for it.

This is obviously interesting, or else no one would be complaing.

EDIT: Also doesn't this somewhat help the chars whose recoveries were nerfed by gravity mods? At least until char specific mods are in.

 

[storm92]

The game was never broken, several ppl just didn't like how it lacked the competitive edge.

So not even a year later we're trying to fix it to give it a competitive edge.
If it makes the game more interesting then by all means I'm for it.

This is obviously interesting, or else no one would be complaing.

EDIT: Also doesn't this somewhat help the chars whose recoveries were nerfed by gravity mods? At least until char specific mods are in.

Interesting yes, but unnecessary as well.

I have to ask, have you played with DC and DD codes?

 

[CountKaiser]

Shouldn't our priority be fixing things that are broken, like the tilt locks Snake and Shiek have, or DIDDY'S RECOVERY BEING BROKEN DUE TO NAS, rather than adding things that may or may not help the meta game?

 

[Sonic Phantom]

Just wanted to tell you that, MAD has been fixed since then and no longer uses falling animations from their Up B. It just uses their general falling animation and restricts to do anything after it (except in HAD, this is different, you can do ANYTHING after MAD).

The reasons why I don't want HAD:

1) Nerfs ledge game (when we set the goal to FIX the ledge game so we could actually EDGEGUARD!!)
2) Nerfs air game
3) Buffs recoveries
4) Needs more tweaking to WD'ing that doesn't even make it worth it to do.

Need I say moar?

Yeah, I stopped playing with the MAD code when I ran into that Luigi issue. Never bothered checking for an update on it.

I do think that we are missing the point of Brawl+ by the addition of HAD or wavedashing. Brawl+ was not meant to significantly change the metagame; it was only created to fix things like tripping, hitstun, and gravity problems. Essentially tweaking the game, not taking the metagame and do a 180 on it. The reasons that Falco400 posted are enough to show that the game is going to change significantly. Point number four really wraps this up, I mean, how many more lines of code are going to be needed to the sliding physics in order to get the wavedash working properly? That in addition to the lines of code for HAD make it not worth the trouble. I know that later on down the road the codes for both might drecrease in size, but in all honesty how much lines of code will that save us in general? With the 256 lines of code limit still in play, this is not worth it; at least the first version of these codes.

 

[zxeon]

We have to wait for the reason, it's not here yet according to zxeon the almighty prophet.

You must practice patience Falco.

 

[Shadic]

The wavedash is still ridiculously long. KayJay's video is pretty cool, but it just shows how broken HAD would be as a form of movement. You're crossing a fourth of Final Destination with it.

 

[the_judge]

Interesting yes, but unnecessary as well.

I have to ask, have you played with DC and DD codes?

ugh (hates typing on the wii)
Yes though I'm only playing B+ at a friend's house (my wii is not hacked yet) we played with HAD and plenty of other codes this morning.

HAD has is crazy bonuses along with annoyances (I doubt I need to state them)
Although I'm supporting it now, I don't care what will be in Final version B+ (except an MK nerf)

Hitstun doesn't end BAD spam, I'm primarely talking about when an char in the air is falling on top of a grounded char.

HAD is unnecessary, B+ is unnecessary (but not to the degree of HAD)

I thought the only way HAD could satisfy both parties is if it was a BAD when the stick is in neutral, and MAD when a direction is pressed.

Either way 1 side is not gonna have what they want.
So you can drop HAD, just don't say it is making the game worse, or else more HAD supporters will fight back (like me, lol)

EDIT: Even if HAD is dropped DD and DC can SOMEWHAT compensate.

 

[yummynbeefy]

its not that this isnt a good idea

the airdodging system is fine man

 

[V-K]

I played a bit with HAD and I think I like it.
Link really can recover better now because he can dodge closer to the edge and zair or anything.
We have to test it more but Imo that code isn´t that bad if it´s smaller.

 

[Zilactic]

There is no way that directional aerial dodging is a necessity in Brawl+. Although, I do support HAD, i think thats a highly ridiculous statement. We got along just fine without the directional ADs but heres why I think it has a chance to stay.

In regards to those who are deliberating about the consequences of Wavedashing and the HAD overall, I have a few points I'd like to discuss.

*I'd like to note that I am not a fan of the HAD because I want Wavedashing. I'd rather not have it at all but I like the other aspects it brings along with it*


1. Negatively Affecting Potential Brawl+ players.
One of the reasons people were against Wavedashing in the first place is that it negatively affect the casual gamers that would potentially try Brawl+. Well, if im not mistaken the whole point of Brawl+ was to make it as competitive as possible. There is no reason why a person would dismiss Brawl+ solely on the basis of Wavedashing, if you really think so, you are in denial and heres why. Look at melee for example, there were a plethora of "casual" gamers who played melee regardless of the wavedash. It didnt ruin their experience simply because they are "casual gamers." The inclusion of a wavedash in brawl+ would simply emulate this. The casual gamers would ignore the WD and the real competitive gamers would find someway to include it in their game.

2. Homogenizing Movement
My next argument goes to homogenizing movement. Yes, im not going to deny it, the inclusion of WDing does homogenize movement, to an extent. After playing a full night with the HAD, i found that WDing was merely situational and not a primary form of movement as it was in melee as i found the timer way too long for WD to get that extent which is a good thing. Dash Dancing/Canceling were still the primary forms of movement and the WD just added a way to space and *mind game* even further. Again why argue about homogenizing movement, when we have ATs such as wavegliding, boost smashes arent all of those homogenizing movements as well?

3. Nerfing the air game
How the HAD nerfs and breaks the air game is a mystery to me. The only thing that has changed is that you have a chance to perform a directional airdodge. Otherwise the airgame has not changed considering that you still have the BADs afterwards. Its also gives you that sense of when to use your airdodge since it does give you that time of lag until you can AD again or do anything for that matter. What matters most is that it does not take away from anything from the risk and reward system and simply adds another element to it.

4. Breaking the edge game.
I touched upon this subject a few pages ago but I'll go over it again. I see HADing as buffing both the offensive and defensive edge games.

Defense: The most contraversial factor in this debate is the "fourth jump" that HADing adds. Let me put this simply, sure the HAD gives you a little 'oomph' to help you get back on stage and another way to dodge an oncoming attacker but let me ask you this, as the person on offense isnt it your responsibility to predict where your opponent is going to be at all times? If you guess wrong that is your fault and it puts the person on defense in a more favorable position. In regards to recovery, the HAD allows you to space your recovery better which is a plus for recoveries like the space animals recoveries. Not to mention it gives recoveries like Links that little boost they so desperately need. Dont get me wrong, if you are hit near the horizontal bounderies of a stage, 9 times out of 10 you're still not coming back even with the extra "fourth jump." So does HAD break the defensive aspect of the edge game. No way.

Offense: On the other hand, if you succeed on pushing your opponent off the stage. You know full well you have that extra jump as well. This allows even more "chasing" off the stage and which buffs the offensive aspect of the game to new limits but not game breaking limits considering that if you whiff an attack, you have two options try to get back stage or take your opponent down with you. If you are the defensive person in this situation, thats your chance to retaliate and if your complaining that the offensive edge game is too much for you, then you shouldnt have gotten hit off the stage. Its as simple as that. So does HAD break the offensive aspect of the edge game. Again. No way. It only adds more reward for even more risk, which is something that everyone can agree is beneficial.

5. Wavelanding
This is the one aspect of the HADing that I am completely hooked on. If they found a way to remove Wavedashing and still keep Wavelanding then I would be all for that. Anyways, Wavelanding makes fighting with platforms alot more useful. More speed on platforms is always good as i thought the platform combat in this game was slow, not painfully slow, but slow enough to be a deterrent. I dont see how Wavelanding would contribute anything negative to the game overall and I welcome it.

Dont get me wrong. I do think the HAD has a very slim chance of getting into the final version but its a wonderful mechanic and I feel it should have a fighting chance whether how slim it may be.

And as I said before directional air dodging is no way, shape, or fashion a necessity but, it does give a player more options in both the offensive and defensive metagames and i can only see that as a plus to the overall gameplay.

 

[Osi]

Oh man, this is too awesome.

I'll be doing a large faq post on it really late tonight, but I'm happy with HAD. The frames could be changed on the input limiter, but that's a minor change we can send PW to fix for us. The fourth jump is so minor, I'm not worried about it at all. You can only MAD once and it doesn't go that high/far, so it's not breaking to me.

If anything this buffs the air game as much as the ground game, so the largest old argument I saw logic in is gone (not including the code space one, that was a valid argument that kinda went away with the codes becoming smaller). You have such control on the ground and in the air with this it's amazing. I also love that it's harder with 0/1 buffer on and not stackable. A lot of the easiness to use it correctly is gone, and it's back to being valuable.

I haven't had time to test it thoroughly as I have played a few matches vs crew members before work. After I get off work I'll do some thorough testing to post a faq on the pro/cons I see tonight/tomorrow.

With dash speed at 1.17 the MAD is not as broken as a wave dash tool. The movement speed/distance from it matches the character's dash speed better in most cases that it did before. I certainly wouldn't call WD the best option at all times with the dash speed code on.

 

[the_judge]

May I ask how many lines we're at w/ today's standard codes?

If spunit can make it shorter it would be for the better.
I like HAD/wavedashing and all, but I feel guilty that what I wanted is taking space from stuff that is more useful or less broken.

Though I like B+ wavedashing brokenness, it's still broken

 

[Osi]

May I ask how many lines we're at w/ today's standard codes?

If spunit can make it shorter it would be for the better.
I like HAD/wavedashing and all, but I feel guilty that what I wanted is taking space from stuff that is more useful or less broken.

Though I like B+ wavedashing brokenness, it's still broken

I'm at 131 with my current one without HAD... so 221 with HAD, that leaves 35 for character balance. I really doubt we need much more than 50 for the severe balance issues. I see no reason HAD can't fit.

 

[Team Giza]

Played around with HAD in its current form and I must say its exactly what I thought it would be. It looks awkward and it does weird things to the off edge game. I also still do not like the wavedashing. Like Zilactic, however, I would like to have some form of wavelanding in the game. There is a Airdodge system I can think of that I think a lot more people would be happy with but it might be difficult to code. I'll post details on that idea later if needed but I am afraid it would probably cost even more lines than the current HAD. And code limit is a big reason Im against HAD anyway.

 

[the_judge]

I'm at 131 with my current one without HAD... so 221 with HAD, that leaves 35 for character balance. I really doubt we need much more than 50 for the severe balance issues. I see no reason HAD can't fit.

But when character balances are done and HAD is in the way (that is, if it isn't shortened) then be my guest to drop it.

w/o HAD B+ seems fine now besides character specific stuff.
I believe HAD might fit in the end, but that's if the majority agrees that it should stay (maybe with some fixing and shortening)
And by the looks of it, the vote is tipping in BAD's favor.

EDIT: @Giza: If you could make a HAD where you BAD when the stick is in neutral, and MAD when a direction is hit. Though this may be akward to some and possibly take 100+ lines

 

[Revven]

I'm at 131 with my current one without HAD... so 221 with HAD, that leaves 35 for character balance. I really doubt we need much more than 50 for the severe balance issues. I see no reason HAD can't fit.

You're forgetting codes we haven't even gotten yet that are FAR more necessary than HAD.

Aerial momentum (could've been done by now but nooooo, people wanted HAD).
Grab release fixes
Character balance
Bigger tech window (I want this mostly for WiFi battles but, it'd be nice to have for offline too)

And anything else I'm forgetting. I can see Aerial momentum taking a sum amount of lines, but, spunit might shorten it so it doesn't take a lot. Still, we need those lines for these things and if HAD is taking all of the space, it'll be the first to go. After all, when spunit shortens it, it's going to be 40 lines supposedly (an estimation).

That's still a LOT more lines than any of the other codes we have so far that spunit has managed to shorten.

 

[Team Giza]

There is a lot of tech changes that need to be made that are higher priority than HAD.

And yes judge, my idea is similar to the one you put but I was only thinking it would activate when you smash direction + airdodge. Not only that but there is some other changes that I think would be important but... line count...

 

[kupo15]

You're forgetting codes we haven't even gotten yet that are FAR more necessary than HAD.

Aerial momentum (could've been done by now but nooooo, people wanted HAD).
Grab release fixes
Character balance
Bigger tech window (I want this mostly for WiFi battles but, it'd be nice to have for offline too)

And anything else I'm forgetting. I can see Aerial momentum taking a sum amount of lines, but, spunit might shorten it so it doesn't take a lot. Still, we need those lines for these things and if HAD is taking all of the space, it'll be the first to go. After all, when spunit shortens it, it's going to be 40 lines supposedly (an estimation).

That's still a LOT more lines than any of the other codes we have so far that spunit has managed to shorten.

Yea, I would have liked a better air momentum code instead of a HAD code. And if people don't want a bigger tech window, at least a window that isn't like a bullseye to hit or the timing is like an island.

 

[Osi]

You're forgetting codes we haven't even gotten yet that are FAR more necessary than HAD.

Aerial momentum (could've been done by now but nooooo, people wanted HAD). - This is being done by almas and not PW, so HAD didn't affect it, I think school did. I agree it is a needed code, and should get a space. If it's more than 20 I'd likely take HAD or character fixes that are shorter over it though.
Grab release fixes I never found this a big issue as the infinites can simply be banned, and ones not infinite you can get out of like other chain grabs.
Character balanceI agree on this, but more than 30 or 50 lines for just character balances... I couldn't see how we would "need" balances taking that many. I'm sure we could do a lot of nice minor fixes, but I wouldn't drop HAD for minor stuff that doesn't affect the viability of that character much.
Bigger tech window (I want this mostly for WiFi battles but, it'd be nice to have for offline too)I have no issues teching, and wouldn't water this down to be easy... I would speed up the roll animation, but I wouldn't make this easy. Teching in brawl is hard, and that is one of the rare areas I find brawl to be technically appealing.

And anything else I'm forgetting. I can see Aerial momentum taking a sum amount of lines, but, spunit might shorten it so it doesn't take a lot. Still, we need those lines for these things and if HAD is taking all of the space, it'll be the first to go. After all, when spunit shortens it, it's going to be 40 lines supposedly (an estimation).

That's still a LOT more lines than any of the other codes we have so far that spunit has managed to shorten.

Good points in there. I agree the air/balance codes are needed. I think with the awesome hackers we have it can all fit ^^.

 

[zxeon]

You guys still don't see why HAD is needed? Lets stop arguing about why it's necessary and more about how to make it better. Because we will probably need to use it in the complete game.

 

[kupo15]

You guys still don't see why HAD is needed?

No and you haven't told us why either..

HAD is not necessary and does nothing good for the game..

 

[Revven]

Good points in there. I agree the air/balance codes are needed. I think with the awesome hackers we have it can all fit ^^.

Wario and Ness would like to have a word with you about grab releases.

Wario can be ****ing grab released INTO A KNEE by Falcon. No matter WHAT happens, he cannot do ANYTHING to get out of it, it is a guaranteed, 18% damage move and since we all have no decay + fresh bonus on, this can be spammed SO easily it's not even funny.

And, Ness can be infinited by Marth with release grabbing, I think that's pretty lame. A lot of crap can be done with release grabs but, Wario's is the worse because he is always forced into the air. It's what's keeping his potential from being put to good use in vB and I don't want the same to happen to him in B+ just because some people don't main Wario and would rather have HAD (that serves no purpose other than to change the way we've been making the game so far) instead of fixing something that EVERYBODY can do to Wario.

 

[Team Giza]

You guys still don't see why HAD is needed?

You still don't know?!
IT'S....

Ummm seriously. I think if we want anything like this at all its gonna have to be rethought out anyway. And then we still have the line count problem. I'm way more for specific characters balanced (to keep everything diverse). Plus I don't really see how this code does much balancing even though there are a few aspects of it I could enjoy if implanted better.

 

[the_judge]

lol, one piece ^^

There is a lot of tech changes that need to be made that are higher priority than HAD.

And yes judge, my idea is similar to the one you put but I was only thinking it would activate when you smash direction + airdodge. Not only that but there is some other changes that I think would be important but... line count...

I'm not a hax0r, but would that be more or less lines?

 

[zxeon]

No and you haven't told us why either..

HAD is not necessary and does nothing good for the game..

Can we focus on improving the code rather than arguing if it's needed?