Revven
FrankerZ
I'd rather time be put into far more important things than HAD...
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Hybrid Air Dodge (HAD) *Thread is CLOSED!-- For Ever*
- Thread starter Dan_X
- Start date
- Status
zxeon
Smash Lord
I'm not forcing you to argue against me.
Team Giza
Smash Lord
Smashing direction I would guess would be more.
And the other changes I would want made, which I haven't mentioned, to make the system be less sloppy and be more balanced would take up even more lines.Exactly, such as fixing Diddy's recovery with No ASL.
Revven
FrankerZ
And, I'm not forcing you to reply.
zxeon
Smash Lord
Diddy's recovery is fine watch Shanus' videos.
Osi
Smash Ace
Obviously there was a large group of people that liked MAD, but saw it's broken elements HAD addresses. It's only fair to see how HAD works out rather than cater to one group than the other. We put like a week on PS/shield discussions, and I'm sure some didn't see a need for them at all, but in the end it was good because everyone's view needs to be looked at and attempted to work.
I have some elements HAD adds in that give more to the game like the ability to move faster on Ganon making him a more viable character. I thought the stacked WD was a bit much on Ike and Ganon, but the HAD one balances them much more than the MAD did. How about helping links recovery and opening the window for lowering jump heights? With HAD there is added recovery on the characters we all feared would lose so much from jump heights, but with directional air dodge to up B that opens up lowering their jumps to make them better on stage. A directional air dodge also adds a lot to the edge game with the ability to drop and HAD back to the edge for a guard. Also if the stop mechanic on platforms can be removed easily then HAD would be a better form of travel on platforms making the stages harder to abuse from the bottom. Right now you have far less mobility on platforms because it's not wide enough to use SHAD and dash games, and it takes longer to move around on without controllable wavelands.
I have some elements HAD adds in that give more to the game like the ability to move faster on Ganon making him a more viable character. I thought the stacked WD was a bit much on Ike and Ganon, but the HAD one balances them much more than the MAD did. How about helping links recovery and opening the window for lowering jump heights? With HAD there is added recovery on the characters we all feared would lose so much from jump heights, but with directional air dodge to up B that opens up lowering their jumps to make them better on stage. A directional air dodge also adds a lot to the edge game with the ability to drop and HAD back to the edge for a guard. Also if the stop mechanic on platforms can be removed easily then HAD would be a better form of travel on platforms making the stages harder to abuse from the bottom. Right now you have far less mobility on platforms because it's not wide enough to use SHAD and dash games, and it takes longer to move around on without controllable wavelands.
kupo15
Smash Hero
No. Its already been a waste of PWs time making that code when he could have made an air speed instead. It will be even more of a waste of time if we spend more time improving a code that many think should not be in the final code set. There are more important things. The world does not revolve around WDing or HAD like you would like
Ganon isn't viable now? You call that good justifications for keeping HAD? Don't make me laugh
What about the competitive gamers who don't want WDing because they think it hurts the game? Does that make us not worthy enough to play B+ or something?
Melee wding =/= brawl wding
zxeon
Smash Lord
Stop trolling this thread Kupo.
the_judge
Smash Journeyman
Aww f*** it, I'm playing with HAD. If the tourney set doesn't include it then I'll just play w/ it at home.
I am now 100% sure HAD will not be in the final codesets. The BAD opposition is too big (same with the code)
Put up a poll, I bet you that BAD will win. So fellow HAD supporters give up. I've been reading and I can't find a single person who isn't against it.
I am now 100% sure HAD will not be in the final codesets. The BAD opposition is too big (same with the code)
Put up a poll, I bet you that BAD will win. So fellow HAD supporters give up. I've been reading and I can't find a single person who isn't against it.
kupo15
Smash Hero
Ah I didn't know that answering you with the truth makes me a troll, or is the part where I state the truth and it doesn't agree with you that makes me the troll?
IIRC I hardly see you positively contribute to any thread in the past month so who's the troll?
Revven
FrankerZ
This is technically who PW made it for, for people to have fun with it at home lol. It's the whole reason why he made it, he didn't make it because it would be for Brawl+.
the_judge
Smash Journeyman
We don't know that.
Besides, it's gonna suck when I play with HAD and then move to tourney settings and have to change my game COMPLETELY.
Heh, but I'm sure nobody cares about my misfortunes.
Osi
Smash Ace
I believe I stated "more viable" which would include the fact I think he is viable now as a character, but more viable as tournament winning character with the added mobility.
kupo15
Smash Hero
Falcon is right. We were telling him that there is a high probability that it won't be standard and that there are more important things to work on atm but he did it anyway. He said that he makes non biased codes for both sides of B+...
He is already more viable. Increases to his dash speed will be the extra mobility he needs. And look out when the air momentum comes....
All the justifications you and everyone makes about HAD are laughable when a future code will do the same thing better
Osi
Smash Ace
I can see a independant dash speed code helping him, but a global change would increase the mobility of the already fast characters just as much. The air momentum would help him the same way if the dash speed for him is changed singular.
I had the added recovery, opening for more code changes now that recovery is better, platform movement, and faster ground movement for slow dash speed characters not helped by a global dash increase code. I don't really see where the current codes in discussion would change this, or maybe I am missing a code in the discussion. The up B's could be changed to help recovery when we do character balancing though, but unless we plan to fix multiple up Bs then that wouldn't diminish my justification as a global recovery addition much.
kupo15
Smash Hero
Osi
Smash Ace
I think Link, Ivy, ZSS, Diddy, DK, Olimar, and Bowser could use the help from a air dodge. We have had many discussions on the brawl+ threads where lowering jump height had such a large impact on recoveries that many disagreed with it. I would see the added global HAD recovery buff as a opportunity to try different jump height variables without the fear of impact they have on recovery being a issue.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
All I know is I haven't seen one person give a good, solid reason why HAD is good for the game. I can maybe give the buffs to the recovery a nod, but the rest of the negatives too HAD FAR outweigh that small benefit.
Edit: Zxeon, why are you being so childish? Sure, 'voices' have been raised but most people can argue in an intelligent manner, but you are just going through the topic trolling everything the anti-HAD users have to say. Either grow up and argue like an adult or leave, you are making your case as well as yourself look foolish.
It saddens me if this code will be what divides the community and prevents B+ from reaching the level that it should.
Edit: Zxeon, why are you being so childish? Sure, 'voices' have been raised but most people can argue in an intelligent manner, but you are just going through the topic trolling everything the anti-HAD users have to say. Either grow up and argue like an adult or leave, you are making your case as well as yourself look foolish.
It saddens me if this code will be what divides the community and prevents B+ from reaching the level that it should.
kupo15
Smash Hero
That is if you consider the buffed recoveries good. I for one don't as well as several others...
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
So here's a question, how do we truly solve this problem? No BS like 'lol learn to HAD noobs' or 'BAD is fine, learn 2 play'. How do we, as a community, decide what's best for the game? Or do we open it up to a general poll to people who don't play B+ at the moment? I'm really at a loss here...
As I said, I'd fear to have this code divide the community and prevent B+ from reaching full potential. These arguments are reflecting poorly on the community and project as a whole, and I fear we need to make a decision sooner rather than later.
As I said, I'd fear to have this code divide the community and prevent B+ from reaching full potential. These arguments are reflecting poorly on the community and project as a whole, and I fear we need to make a decision sooner rather than later.
Sonic Phantom
Smash Cadet
Brawl+ was never meant to significantly change the metagame. It was only created to tweak the much needed issues without changing the game completely; besides, if you want to put yourself in a situation where you have to change your game completely that is your choice. You would be going into this knowing the possible consequences.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
Sonic Phantom sums up how I feel. There are things about Brawl that made it unique in comparison to Melee and the air dodge was one of them.
the_judge
Smash Journeyman
I'm not gonna play w/ HAD. It will only hinder my game when tournies come.
I'm not that great in vBrawl, same for B+, so why make it worse.
But do the poll thing, It'll be like Obama vs McCain all over again.
I'm not that great in vBrawl, same for B+, so why make it worse.
But do the poll thing, It'll be like Obama vs McCain all over again.
Zilactic
Smash Cadet
That was cold blooded kupo and uncalled for. Lets try to keep this civil shall we?
On another note (regardless on my standpoint of the subject) we could just as easily ask how you are telling the truth considering that that the subject is still being debated. Just because you and several others believe it to be true does not make in fact true. Everyone involved with this Brawl+ project should be entitled to their own opinions considering that the topic IS still debatable.
Fun Fact: Even Galileo Galilei, one of the greatest minds of his time, was branded a heretic and shunned by the community for his heliocentric theory (which was later proven true).
^Goes to show you that although several other people deem something false/untrue it does not necessarily mean that those people (the majority in this case) are right.
I got respect for you kupo, you're one of the biggest voices in this project but lets not see you shun anybody simply because they have a different opinion than yours.
I believe you misunderstood me kupo.
Of course we know that melee WDing does not equal brawl WDing. Thats a given.
I never implied that competitive players who dislike WDing are not worthy. I simply meant to say that if it were to be included in the final set, it would be one of those techniques (along with dash dancing/canceling, boost smashing, etc.) that separate the casual and competitive player. I apologize if I offended anybody if thats the case.
To put this subject to rest. I'd like to see a constructive list of factors that HAD negatively affects and are nondisputable. Then afterwards someone should compile of nondisputable factos that HAD positively contributes. If indeed the negatives totally outweigh the positives then goodbye HAD.
Dont misunderstand my intentions though, I for one, am all for preserving Brawl uniqueness to Melee but like goodoldganon said, I'd rather have this issue settled now rather than later. I too would not like to see a divided community.
I'd also like to note that I am completely neutral about the subject of HAD's inclusion. I could care less if its included or not. I just think its unfair for those who are supporting it to be completely buried without letting their voices be heard and if that means I have to voice an opinion on the positive side, I will gladly do it. (although imo its pretty futile atm)
kupo15
Smash Hero
I'm not shunning him away because his opinion is different than mine although that is exactly what zxeon is doing. Zxeon and I have bad history anyway which explains that...
Finns7
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2008
- Messages
- 896
After playing with it for a while im 50/50 atm. I not going to bs and say i dont want wavedashing, I do, and after playing with this im pretty sure that it doesnt homogenize approaches as much as some of you would like it. DD still has its uses aswell as dc. It depends on the situation.
The aireal game feels different...I will say I was still able to **** with combos in the air and such with proper predicting, actually it seems as if its easier to get a hit in after the mad then if it were just bads, it didnt seem op it just seemed...diff, like you needed a diff strategy to attack in the air and off the ledge. Granted I used falcon and ganon ( well ganon in brawl+ you only get about 3 hits in before you get the KO lol), but with falcon a char who has a good aireal game I just flowed using the proper mindgames.
I think this code has the potential to be great if we play around with it a little.
The aireal game feels different...I will say I was still able to **** with combos in the air and such with proper predicting, actually it seems as if its easier to get a hit in after the mad then if it were just bads, it didnt seem op it just seemed...diff, like you needed a diff strategy to attack in the air and off the ledge. Granted I used falcon and ganon ( well ganon in brawl+ you only get about 3 hits in before you get the KO lol), but with falcon a char who has a good aireal game I just flowed using the proper mindgames.
I think this code has the potential to be great if we play around with it a little.
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
So far, Zilactic has given reason as to why HAD should be in, though I think in precedence, it would come after character tweaks and then air momentum. Air momentum would make combos more viable, and thus allow us to lower hitstun, which is good.
As for specific tweaks, all infinites must go. This includes tilt locks and grab releases.
zxeon has yet to give reason as to why HAD should be kept in. All he has done is say that others are trolling because they are mad that he won't say his reasoning.
zxeon, why should we keep HAD, and should it really take precedent over Air momentum and character specific tweaks?
As for specific tweaks, all infinites must go. This includes tilt locks and grab releases.
zxeon has yet to give reason as to why HAD should be kept in. All he has done is say that others are trolling because they are mad that he won't say his reasoning.
zxeon, why should we keep HAD, and should it really take precedent over Air momentum and character specific tweaks?
PillowPants
Smash Apprentice
were r the vids?
Osi
Smash Ace
I would have to say after testing it a bit more and weighing my pro's vs con's I'm not in favor of HAD. Here is the list I made of my opinions on it to reach this choice. The final con for me is just too much to overlook as it was with MAD.
Pros:
Cons:
Pros:
- Add spacing control with WD
- Adds more stalling techniques
- Adds another way to go up the edge
- Adds speed - helps some slow character's mobility
- Could bring back melee users
- Makes some more combos possible
Cons:
- Recovery is even easier making edge guards harder
- Goes against the intended mobility characteristics on some characters
- Turns off brawl users
- Makes other forms of movement less valuable
- Could make brawl+ less credible
- Can't be used for platform WDing
- Can't WD off edges for guards
- 90 lines can be used for tons of others (this one in itself is like 20 cons by taking away possible codes)
Ok I watched that video, and I notice what seems to be a huge problem right away. It looks like melee airdodging takes away all momentum in the air, like game and watches bucket braking. When one character can do that, especially one who dies extremely early without it, it may be alright, but imagine a snake with bucket braking. He could easily make it past 250% on a regular basis. Same with any of the really heavy characters. BROKEN
the_judge
Smash Journeyman
zxeon
Smash Lord
You must be my biggest fan!
I'm not shunning you Kupo. All I have been saying is that HAD might prove to be an indispensable mechanic for B+ and we should try to polish it up instead of arguing about it's existence.
zxeon
Smash Lord
That's Kitan from Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. The aspect ratio is 4:3 when it should be 16:9.
But the fact that HAD would even be in brawl is an important growing process that'll shape how outsiders take the game.
zxeon
Smash Lord
How about I put it this way:
HAD = Ganmen. You think it's outdated and useless but it serves an important purpose.
So you mean to tell me you wish to put down the brawl+ community by sending in minions to take away our rights and freedoms and force to live in the tyranny of HAD?
I think you need a better analogy.
- Status