Hybrid Air Dodge (HAD) *Thread is CLOSED!-- For Ever*

[zxeon]

So you mean to tell me you wish to put down the brawl+ community by sending in minions to take away our rights and freedoms and force to live in the tyranny of HAD?

I think you need a better analogy.

It's a good analogy You just didn't get the meaning. Have you seen past episode twenty?

 

[the_judge]

wtf, when did this turn into an anime arguement?

Should I make a poll on whether not HAD should be in to get the whole GBD board involved, using Osi's list of pros and cons?

 

[leafgreen386]

wtf, when did this turn into an anime arguement?

Should I make a poll on whether not HAD should be in to get the whole GBD board involved, using Osi's list of pros and cons?

No. I think we should spend some considerably more time talking about this before taking it public. Besides... anyone not already on the brawl+ train would just vote BAD. It's a stupid idea.

 

[Eight 52]

It's a good analogy You just didn't get the meaning. Have you seen past episode twenty?

Well, I never really considered Lagann as a ganmen since it was different from all the others, and in a sense everything it controlled.

But the fact that it serves as a negative image of brawl + can easily warrant it's no use, and the huge code doesn't add to it. People see Diddy's recovery as a turn off already, adding wavedashing to a game where the physics doesn't comprehend it even with the lag added would ruin the image of what is trying to made.

 

[zxeon]

Well, I never really considered Lagann as a ganmen since it was different from all the others, and in a sense everything it controlled.

But the fact that it serves as a negative image of brawl + can easily warrant it's no use, and the huge code doesn't add to it. People see Diddy's recovery as a turn off already, adding wavedashing to a game where the physics doesn't comprehend it even with the lag added would ruin the image of what is trying to made.

The game does comprehend it if it didn't it would crash or your character would get stuck in the ground or something.

 

[Zilactic]

I'd like to make it clear that the inclusion of the HAD code should in no way have more precedence than the aerial momentum codes and character changes.

Nice list Osi. I'd like to add to it if I may.


Pros:

• Add spacing control with WD
• Adds more stalling techniques
• Adds another way to go up the edge
• Adds speed - helps some slow character's mobility
• Could bring back melee users
• Makes some more combos possible
• Boosts recoveries
• Allows/entices a more aggressive edge game which enhances the Risk/Reward system
• Allows more movement options hence more mindgames
• Boosts platform movement with the option of Wavelanding
• Separates the casual and competitive gamer even further

Cons:

• Boost recoveries while simultaneously making edgeguards harder
• Goes against the intended mobility characteristics on some characters
• Turns off brawl users
• WDing potentially turns off any newcomers
• Potentially makes other forms of movement less valuable
• Could make brawl+ less credible
• 90 lines can be used for tons of others
• Jeopardizes Brawls uniqueness
• Homogenizes movement even further
• Slightly changes the feel of air game
• Benefits some characters more than it does others

I removed cant be used for playform WDing.... well cause it can be used lol
I also removed cant WD off the edge to edgeguard. I dont see that as a con considering we have instant edgegrabbing and the ledge game is enhanced by the no ASL.

Excuse me if im mistaken but didnt spunit say he would be able to shorten the code to approximately 40 (give or take a few) lines?

any feedback from others is welcome

 

[Eight 52]

The game does comprehend it if it didn't it would crash or your character would get stuck in the ground or something.

No, but you need 90+ lines of code for it to not crash. The way wavedashing in brawl looks, and the way it feels doesn't make it fit with the game. It still wasn't that important of a mechanic in melee and it wouldn't be in brawl. It would probably be used as much as Yoshi's draconic reverse (except with maybe Luigi and Samus) and doesn't open too much to the game itself. Wavedashing is more like a nostalgia bomb.

 

[Frogles]

All I have been saying is that HAD might prove to be an indispensable mechanic for B+ and we should try to polish it up instead of arguing about it's existence.

no dammit. we shouldn't even have this code right now because we don't even know what the hell we need it for. as it stands right now it was a waste of PWs time. we shouldn't spend any more time with trying to improve it until we know that we need it. we shouldn't be adding some new mechanic just because it allows for wavedashing.

 

[Dan_X]

Anyway, we can now control how many frames the timer lasts!!! Check the OP!

I'm bad with floatpoints and stuff, can someone help me find the best value?

Thanks.

 

[alex3]

Cons:

• Goes against the intended mobility characteristics on some characters
• Turns off brawl users
• WDing potentially turns off any newcomers
• Could make brawl+ less credible
• Jeopardizes Brawls uniqueness
• Slightly changes the feel of air game
• Benefits some characters more than it does others

1. dash speed, dash dance, dash cancel, etc. all go against the "intended mobility characteristics" (lol) of every single character. therefore this is a not really a valid argument.
2,3. fallacious by nature.
4. how does it make brawl+ less credible?
5. you mean it changes brawl's airdodging system the same way you've added shieldstun, hitstun, hitlag, and the plethora of game changing mechanics the codes have introduced.
6. high gravity, etc. all change the feel of the air game. A LOT.
7. a lot of codes benefit some characters more than it does others. ie. alc for ike, ganon. nas for lucario, disadvantageous to diddy.

 

[the_judge]

It's not gonna be in the final version, especially when the FAQ says no wavedash and that caught alot of ppl's attention.

I have a friend who doesn't play Brawl because the lack of SHFFL and WD'ing, and I haven't been able to get him to play Brawl ever since.

B+ would probably bring him and other devoted Melee players back (even w/o HAD) though HAD would bring back a few more.
But the price of having HAD turns off several Brawl players, and last time I checked the Brawl fanbase is already bigger than Melee's (I'm counting more than just SWF)
Losing the Brawl fanbase is too much compared to losing Melee.

Hopefully, both sides can unite and play B+, especially if we go with Giza's HAD.

 

[Dan_X]

1. dash speed, dash dance, dash cancel, etc. all go against the "intended mobility characteristics" (lol) of every single character. therefore this is a not really a valid argument.
2,3. fallacious by nature.
4. how does it make brawl+ less credible?
5. you mean it changes brawl's airdodging system the same way you've added shieldstun, hitstun, hitlag, and the plethora of game changing mechanics the codes have introduced.
6. high gravity, etc. all change the feel of the air game. A LOT.
7. a lot of codes benefit some characters more than it does others. ie. alc for ike, ganon. nas for lucario, disadvantageous to diddy.

great response. I felt the same way about his "con" list. Some of the negatives seemed fudged. As they aren't legit, and you called all of those out.

 

[Osi]

1. dash speed, dash dance, dash cancel, etc. all go against the "intended mobility characteristics" (lol) of every single character. therefore this is a not really a valid argument.
2,3. fallacious by nature.
4. how does it make brawl+ less credible?
5. you mean it changes brawl's airdodging system the same way you've added shieldstun, hitstun, hitlag, and the plethora of game changing mechanics the codes have introduced.
6. high gravity, etc. all change the feel of the air game. A LOT.
7. a lot of codes benefit some characters more than it does others. ie. alc for ike, ganon. nas for lucario, disadvantageous to diddy.

Seeing as how the list you just replied to was based off mine, here is my response to it.

1. Dash speed/dance both are global changes that keep the original version with a slight modification across the board where WD would not follow any character ground movements other than traction = wavedash length. We have no independant dash speed/dance character codes that would change their movements a % different than the others. They keep the same movement characteristic in a more dramatic form.

2/3. Well I only put it as a single line in my list that HAD/WD could turn off some brawl players coming over.

4. Many people discredit brawl+ by saying it's nothing more than a lesser version of melee remade on brawl. Adding in a mechanic without any traces in brawl from melee would further discredit the project on this basis.

5. The only things added have either removed aspects, or fixed the existing ones. The only exception to this would be dash canceling in some regards, but it only cancels a existing mechanic. Wavedashing is a result of directional air dodges which are a mechanic we added that did not exist in any form on Vbrawl.

6. I didn't include this in my list, and would agree it's not a pro/con as it's a feeling. Discussing changes to recovery being easier, or first air dodges being punished easier would be something we could list as a air game change with HAD though.

7. This is a pro and con, and was actually a big pro for me. Any code will help some characters more than other. Changing a global mechanic by some % across the board is a bit different than introducing a new mechanic which does not follow any present movement features other than traction.

 

[Zilactic]

great response. I felt the same way about his "con" list. Some of the negatives seemed fudged. As they aren't legit, and you called all of those out.

I could have easily taken those out of the con list simply because I feel the same way you do but I was trying to make the list as non biased as possible.

 

[zxeon]

No, but you need 90+ lines of code for it to not crash. The way wavedashing in brawl looks, and the way it feels doesn't make it fit with the game. It still wasn't that important of a mechanic in melee and it wouldn't be in brawl. It would probably be used as much as Yoshi's draconic reverse (except with maybe Luigi and Samus) and doesn't open too much to the game itself. Wavedashing is more like a nostalgia bomb.

It can be shortened. Spunit already said that it will be no more than fourty lines once it's shortened

 

[CountKaiser]

The purpose of brawl+ was to make it more competitive, right? In such, people wanted to keep the metegame the same and simply give people more options and allow for combos and such.

I am almost certain that HAD will substantially change the metegame of at least a few characters. So instead of worrying about this, why don't we work on other pressing codes, such as air momentum and teching and such, and come back to this once everything else is finished.

 

[Dan_X]

I could have easily taken those out of the con list simply because I feel the same way you do but I was trying to make the list as non biased as possible.

True. Hey, so yeah, we can change the timer frames with floatpoints!!

So let's shorten them?

The purpose of brawl+ was to make it more competitive, right? In such, people wanted to keep the metegame the same and simply give people more options and allow for combos and such.

I am almost certain that HAD will substantially change the metegame of at least a few characters. So instead of worrying about this, why don't we work on other pressing codes, such as air momentum and teching and such, and come back to this once everything else is finished.

No offense man, but talking about VB's metagame with regards to Brawl+ is a joke. Almost every code we have effects the meta game. Think of hitstun alone, Falcon is good? Brawl+ will form it's own metagame out of everyone's prexisting knowldge of VB's metagame.

"The purpose of brawl+ was to make it more competitive, right?" Yes that's right. Had does just that. It adds MORE options to the game. Is HAD utterly necessary? No, but you can't reject a code based on whether or not it's entirely necessary. For example, is a slight dash speed increase needed, or how about slight gravity changes, and short hop changes. Are any of these essential to Brawl+? Could we play Brawl+ just fine without said codes? These are just a select few, the list goes on and on. HAD has reasons to be in Brawl+, just as any other code does.

I played quite a bit with the code tonight. The game has not diminished to WD approaches, it's only another option. There's still an overload of DDing, and DCing, even with WDing. So. Yeah...

 

[kupo15]

The purpose of brawl+ was to make it more competitive, right? In such, people wanted to keep the metegame the same and simply give people more options and allow for combos and such.

I am almost certain that HAD will substantially change the metegame of at least a few characters. So instead of worrying about this, why don't we work on other pressing codes, such as air momentum and teching and such, and come back to this once everything else is finished.

I agree and a good idea. That should have been applied to the making of HAD also. We shouldn't waste our time on this code when there is more to fix in this game

 

[zxeon]

I agree and a good idea. That should have been applied to the making of HAD also. We shouldn't waste our time on this code when there is more to fix in this game

I am telling you this code is necessary. You'll know in time.

 

[Dan_X]

check my last post, I edited it!

 

[storm92]

zxeon, why can't you just say the reasons now?
Seriously.

 

[Starscream]

I think Link, Ivy, ZSS, Diddy, DK, Olimar, and Bowser could use the help from a air dodge. We have had many discussions on the brawl+ threads where lowering jump height had such a large impact on recoveries that many disagreed with it. I would see the added global HAD recovery buff as a opportunity to try different jump height variables without the fear of impact they have on recovery being a issue.

How about actually fixing these poor jumps instead of using HAD's 4th jump of sorts to compensate?

I am telling you this code is necessary. You'll know in time.

I'm pretty sure you're just saying this to mess with Kupo. If you aren't then I think I'm pretty convinced that you have no idea what the f*ck you're talking about.

 

[Dan_X]

zxeon, why can't you just say the reasons now?
Seriously.

rofl.

10chars

 

[zxeon]

I sent PMs to Kupo, Storm and Orca. Check your inboxes

 

[CountKaiser]

Seriously, zxeon, your BS on this "you'll see in due time" is annoying. Just tell us your reasons already as to why you prefer HAD.

 

[Osi]

How about actually fixing these poor jumps instead of using HAD's 4th jump of sorts to compensate?

I agree, and that character specific change is the right way to go. I simply was listing a positive of HAD on recoveries needing help, but they are other ways to handle it.

 

[Team Giza]

Hopefully, both sides can unite and play B+, especially if we go with Giza's HAD.

Anyway, now that I have some time on my hand I want to throw out my idea on what HAD should be like.

I'll start by just going over some of the issues I have with the current HAD code and things I don't think should make it into the final just because of the nature of Brawl+. Right now, I really think that the HAD code just feels sloppy. It definitely does not seem like something that can be put in a final product even if it is fun for awhile. It looks awkward in the air and seems to disrupt the edge game quite a bit. It may add slightly to the game but it also forces your first airdodge to be a directional one which gets strips the game of a lot of the tactics available in brawl.

And of course I must mention the issues with wavedashing. I really don't think it helps the game out much. It is far too sudden and changes the ground game far too much. It really doesn't add more depth to the game just more powerful options that overshadow other ones that used to be used. Though it does change up characters balance and though its impossible to tell right now it might be for the better balance wise. It also does wonders to homogenize characters. Being the heterogeneous nazi that I am I really cannot allow this. However, it does seem that a lot less people have issue with wavelanding and for good cause but I will go over that a bit later.

So onto how I feel HAD would need to be made for it to be generally accepted by the brawl+ community (line limit not included). A lot needs to be reworked to get people to accept this. Having it be forced to be your first airdodge is simply unacceptable, it needs to be a decision made by the player. I really think the only way to make this feel like something that is actually a part of the game would be to make it work off smashing the joystick in a direction while pressing the airdodge (every similar to a smash attack). However than we come to the problem of playing on the wiimote but I really don't know how to work that out. This would allow players to choose when they do the directional airdodge and when they want to do a brawl airdodge. This will help the game still feel like brawl and would make it hard to accidentally do a directional airdodge for newer players.

Now onto changes that need to be made for what happens after you perform a directional airdodge. I find it sloppy in the current code cause it basically works as an extra jump and I don't think it should be that necessary to use. I actually feel that it has to be more similar to melee to actually make it feel fine tuned but not exactly the same as melee. My idea is to do something kind of like the state Sonic goes into after his up+B. You can keep attacking after it but you cannot use your B moves but also you will not be able airdodge. This gives you some options afterwards but definitely not as many as the current HAD. You should not be able jump after using the directional airdodge but your remaining jumps are saved so if you get hit after the airdodge you still have them (if this is possible). There would still have to be some amount of time after the directional airdodge people you can do any action (basically additional lag so it takes a little longer than a brawl airdodge). All in all, this will make the directional airdodge seem very melee in its usage while having unique features and not messing too much with the brawl portion of the edgegame.

Now onto wavedashing. Sorry but I really don't think it fits into brawl well. It is far too game changing. However it seems like more people are open to the idea of wavelanding, it takes more time to set up a waveland but it gives you nice options for pressure and opens up some nice guessing games. Getting rid of wavedashing can be accomplished by setting a timer after you first jump that disables you from starting a directional airdodge. This still leaves room for the uses of wavelanding, both for the reasons I mentioned before and the platform and ledge options. I'm not sure if we need to try to mess with the ledges too much if we are just dealing with wavelanding either.

Those are basically the ideas I have that would make HAD seem polished and acceptable by much more of the Brawl+ community. Don't know what the current supporters of HAD will think of it nor the people who dislike it. I could be dead wrong about it being more accepted. I just thought I would get the idea out there even if the line count may be way too much.

 

[zxeon]

Sounds like a good idea giza. I hope it doesn't get lost in the shuffle.

You don't have to hate on WDing so much Giza it can be made to work in Brawl+

 

[Team Giza]

I don't really feel I am hating on wavedashing. I just think it would be better not to have it in brawl+. It would probably be better overall to just work with fine tuning the wavelanding because I think it adds more depth to the game overall then wavedashing. By having to fix up wavedashing you would have to mess with wavelanding as well and thus it would be harder to really fit one of them into the game extremely well without hurting the other. Since wavelanding is more situational I think it will be more accepted by the masses however it will provide a few nice offensive and defensive options. I really think wavelanding can do more for making the game fun, deep and diverse than wavedashing can.

 

[zxeon]

If we don't allow WDing then people will just triangle jump all day. Then it will look very stupid. They will always go for the next best thing.

If we're going to be stuck with a directional airdodge we might as well make a wavedash that isn't overpowered and compliments the metagame. Just don't assume that any wavedashing is going to completely destroy the ballance.

From what I can tell the HAD WD is a lot smaller and harder to preform than the MAD WD so we're on the right track.

 

[Team Giza]

If we worked the timer right then triangle jumping wouldn't give you any effective waveland. If we work on it correctly then triangle jumping, though useful in some situations, will be more punishable then a shorthop brawl airdodge. I don't think it would turn into something people would spam and thus we won't have to worry about it looking stupid.

When did I assume that wavedashing would destroy the balance of the game? I just said I don't think the best choice for the direction of brawl+. I just don't think its good for character diversity or rewarding good spacing and planning ahead as a well thought out and fine tuned wavelanding function would.

 

[Finns7]

I dont think WD takes over other forms of movement. There are situations where dd should be used and dc should be, wd just adds to the possible mindgames.

 

[kupo15]

I like project05s idea of HAD the best. His idea is to keep BAD but allow for so more DI (or SDI?) so you can direct yourself more left and right

 

[Finns7]

^ that and gizas sounds cool to me, Im not really sold on this one as much tbh. I do think wd/wl adds other options that dd and dc cannot alone.

I wonder if we could map it out to a single button input like, just make it so the L button enables a Mad.

 

[storm92]

I like project05s idea of HAD the best. His idea is to keep BAD but allow for so more DI (or SDI?) so you can direct yourself more left and right

Yeah, that's my favorite idea as well.

 

[Archangel]

I dont think WD takes over other forms of movement. There are situations where dd should be used and dc should be, wd just adds to the possible mindgames.

I said the exact same thing basically a few pages back. Wavedashing will not dominate movement like it did in Melee. You don't have to fear a high speed *** kickin anymore guys.

 

[storm92]

I said the exact same thing basically a few pages back. Wavedashing will not dominate movement like it did in Melee. You don't have to fear a high speed *** kickin anymore guys.

That's where you're wrong.
WD did not dominate movement in Melee, dashing did for the most part.
Back then, the WD was used almost exclusively as a spacing tool.
Few chars actually used it to enable new combos, which of course would be Fox, Falco, and such.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Personally, I think wavedashing would be fine if it actually had some lag on it. In melee, when you wavedash you have your character's initial jump frames +10 frames of which you can do absolutely nothing. This is what prevented you from stacking wavedashes and this is also what ensured that wavedashing was not the optimal choice of movement, but rather something to be simply combined with dash dancing and dash canceling.

I think being able to move backwards while facing foward (what I used wavedashing for the most) would be a very nice addition to brawl. At the moment, I'm limited to pivoting to achieve things like this, which is much more difficult for some moves and thus much harder to implement into my average game.

 

[Archangel]

That's where you're wrong.
WD did not dominate movement in Melee, dashing did for the most part.
Back then, the WD was used almost exclusively as a spacing tool.
Few chars actually used it to enable new combos, which of course would be Fox, Falco, and such.

You must have missed out on some of the matches then. Never saw a good Luigi player or something. I'm pretty sure Fox didn't dash after he shinned but did a cancel Wavedash...I could have been seeing thing though.

 

[leafgreen386]

You must have missed out on some of the matches then. Never saw a good Luigi player or something. I'm pretty sure Fox didn't dash after he shinned but did a cancel Wavedash...I could have been seeing thing though.

Notice how he specifically mentioned fox and falco when referring to comboing...

And luigi is an exception. He's one of the few characters who truly had WDing dominate his game, but even then he still ran when the situation called for it.

Running was still the primary form of movement for most characters.