Hypothetical way's we can buff the Doc

[Doc Mario]

The ditto matchup since Melee has always been about walling, really. Since Mario and Doc suck when it comes to forward facing options. In Melee Mario looks for a U-tilt and then just does braindead juggles from there, goes for a B-air gimp when it's time to finish the stock. In Brawl and Smash 4 it's more U-smash and B-air instead but basically the same idea, just in Smash 4 Mario basically has next to no edgeguards and needs to kill with either U-smash or B-throw. Neither side really wants to approach given how stupid it is, and given once you get hit, you're facing forward which sucks.

Those fanfics doe

 

[A2ZOMG]

Those fanfics doe

I'm winning the argument if that's your only defense, since you clearly have none.

 

[Doc Mario]

I'm winning the argument if that's your only defense, since you clearly have none.

Well let's see, I told you we can fight but you said NO! So stick to the fanfics you enjoy writing so much buddy boy.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well let's see, I told you we can fight but you said NO! So stick to the fanfics you enjoy writing so much buddy boy.

Suggest something other than Mario vs Doc (or the ditto matchup). I will play that. Mario/Doc/ditto matchups way too boring.

 

[Doc Mario]

Suggest something other than Mario vs Doc (or the ditto matchup). I will play that. Mario/Doc/ditto matchups way too boring.

So what are you saying? You wanna go?

 

[A2ZOMG]

So what are you saying? You wanna go?

Suggest something.

Aside from Mario and Doc, I also play Ganon, Link, Falco, and Ike. I haven't really seriously played anyone else, but I'll do it as long as it isn't a Mario/Doc/ditto matchup.

 

[Doc Mario]

Suggest something.

Aside from Mario and Doc, I also play Ganon, Link, Falco, and Ike. I haven't really seriously played anyone else, but I'll do it as long as it isn't a Mario/Doc/ditto matchup.

Oh iight! Nintendo ID is MarioDoc, you trying to play right now buddy?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Oh iight! Nintendo ID is MarioDoc, you trying to play right now buddy?

I'll add you and host. Last chance if you want to suggest something specific, otherwise I'll randomly pick one of the four other characters I invest in.

 

[Doc Mario]

I'll add you and host. Last chance if you want to suggest something specific, otherwise I'll randomly pick one of the four other characters I invest in.

Oh I'm good!

 

[WeirdJoe27]

I wish one of you had a capture card. Would love to see how this all ends.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Good games, lag was unfortunate. You have much better reaction time than I do and have solid fundamentals. However as I stated, one of the noticeable problems with Mario is his aerial KO moves are really bad, so most of the time I could force the game to go on really long simply because ledge resets are free.

 

[Doc Mario]

I wish one of you had a capture card. Would love to see how this all ends.

Well, there's replays, also, buddy is really good especially his Ganon

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well, there's replays, also, buddy is really good especially his Ganon

Meh, I don't claim to be good. My reaction time is too terrible for that. I only held up in the Ganon vs Mario/Doc matchup because it's in Ganon's favor.

Those were good games though, as I said you have great fundamentals.

 

[Doc Mario]

Meh, I don't claim to be good. My reaction time is too terrible for that. I only held up in the Ganon vs Mario/Doc matchup because it's in Ganon's favor.

Those were good games though, as I said you have great fundamentals.

So who's better? Mario or Doc?

 

[A2ZOMG]

So who's better? Mario or Doc?

They both suck. Mario is better in slightly more relevant matchups (ZSS, Pikachu, Sheik, though Doc does better vs Diddy and Ness), though as of the patch changes, I don't think either of them are relevant against the good sword users.

 

[Doc Mario]

They both suck. Mario is better in slightly more relevant matchups (ZSS, Pikachu, Sheik, though Doc does better vs Diddy and Ness), though as of the patch changes, I don't think either of them are relevant against the good sword users.

How do they suck? I'm still not getting it

 

[A2ZOMG]

How do they suck? I'm still not getting it

Short range, mediocre recoveries. In Mario's case really limited KO options, in Doc's case really limited options to escape juggles. They have just enough to function in neutral, but most of the sword and spacing oriented characters force them to make a lot of unfavorable guesses, and many of them got new really safe KO confirm options.

 

[Doc Mario]

Short range, mediocre recoveries. In Mario's case really limited KO options, in Doc's case really limited options to escape juggles. They have just enough to function in neutral, but most of the sword and spacing oriented characters force them to make a lot of unfavorable guesses, and many of them got new really safe KO confirm options.

So you think sword fighters are better for some reason

 

[A2ZOMG]

So you think sword fighters are better for some reason

I mean...look at Link for instance. He now has a D-throw combo game that is basically on par with Mario's, except Link actually does kinda ridiculous damage per hit so he actually racks damage faster for every read he needs to make. And his grab outranges everything, and unlike Mario, he's extremely good at edgeguarding low recoveries with both N-air and D-air.

Marth and Lucina can do Jab -> anything in this game. Ike can do U-throw -> F-air for ages, and his sped up DA can kill at like 100% near the edge if you're trying to run away from him. Most of the sword characters are really, really viable this patch, and by design they're really hard for Mario and Doc to get in on safely.

 

[Doc Mario]

I mean...look at Link for instance. He now has a D-throw combo game that is basically on par with Mario's, except Link actually does kinda ridiculous damage per hit. And his grab outranges everything, and unlike Mario, he's extremely good at edgeguarding low recoveries with both N-air and D-air.

Marth and Lucina can do Jab -> anything in this game. Ike can do U-throw -> F-air for ages, and his sped up DA can kill at like 100% near the edge if you're trying to run away from him. Most of the sword characters are really, really viable this patch, and by design they're really hard for Mario and Doc to get in on safely.

Mario and Dr.Mario aren't supposed to better than everyone in every way, they're better at things that sword fighters aren't. They have Fireballs and Pills to make their approach more safe

 

[MistressRemilia]

The best way we could buff Dr.Mario is by making him faster.
I mean, not as fast as Mario obviously, but at least, make his running speed decent. Doc is slower than Dedede for God's Sake =(
Aside from that, the others possibles buffs include:
- Megavitamins dmg increase: 6,5% would be the best to me
- Make Fair more viable by reducing the end lag of it, seriously this thing is just punishable af, it's rewarding to hit with it, but you'll most likely hit with the sourspot anyway, speaking of which, make the sourspot useful or make the sweetspot bigger or something.
- BThrow has btr kill power: Kind of obvious, free kills are always nice for a defensive character, even through Doc doesn't exactly struggle to kill.
- Cape Stall, because you know, recovery
- Tornado vertical reach increased? I mean, Doc Tornado is kind of like, the opposite of Luigi's Tornado in terms of mobility, it doesn't go far in terms of horizontal reach, and i'm fine with that, but that'd be nice to at least have more vertical reach than Luigi's Tornado, or at the very least the same.

That's about it, and sorry if you didn't understand some of my sentences.

 

[Denzill7]

Basically if they gave him a little better mobility and a better recovery. That'd greatly improve him even without changing any moves. I don't necessarily have any problem with his moves except for his stupid up smash. Change it back to the straight up vertical angle and give some power that's somewhere on par with Mario's and I'd be content.

 

[WeirdJoe27]

The best way we could buff Dr.Mario is by making him faster.
I mean, not as fast as Mario obviously, but at least, make his running speed decent. Doc is slower than Dedede for God's Sake =(
Aside from that, the others possibles buffs include:
- Megavitamins dmg increase: 6,5% would be the best to me
- Make Fair more viable by reducing the end lag of it, seriously this thing is just punishable af, it's rewarding to hit with it, but you'll most likely hit with the sourspot anyway, speaking of which, make the sourspot useful or make the sweetspot bigger or something.
- BThrow has btr kill power: Kind of obvious, free kills are always nice for a defensive character, even through Doc doesn't exactly struggle to kill.
- Cape Stall, because you know, recovery
- Tornado vertical reach increased? I mean, Doc Tornado is kind of like, the opposite of Luigi's Tornado in terms of mobility, it doesn't go far in terms of horizontal reach, and i'm fine with that, but that'd be nice to at least have more vertical reach than Luigi's Tornado, or at the very least the same.

That's about it, and sorry if you didn't understand some of my sentences.

You hit the nail on the head. It's good that all us Doc players seem to think the same. Too bad Mr. Sakurai doesn't as well.

Seriously, we're not asking to make Doc the best player in the game, just a few minor buffs to make him..... well..... BALANCED! Oh well, maybe in Smash 5 (because Doc will return).

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I got a whole list.

BUFFS:

• Jab 1: Base Dmg 2.8 < 3.5
• Jab 2: Base Dmg 1.68 < 2.48
• Fsmash (All Angles): Add Super Armor on frames 7-15
• Usmash: Head Invincibility frames 9-12 < 6-12
• Dsmash (1st Hit): Base Dmg 11.2 < 12.36
• Dsmash (2nd Hit): Base Dmg 13.44 < 14.2
• Bthrow: Base Knockback 70 < 85
• Bthrow: Knockback Growth 60 < 75
• Fair: Landing Lag Decreased 28 < 17
  
• Megavitamins: Base Dmg 5.6 < 7.1
  
• Super Sheet: Gains an added increase of momentum of 1.430 on frame 7 (This should help with Doc's approach options & recovery)
  
• Super Jump Punch: Add Super Armor on frames 3-5
  
• Dr. Tornado (Aerial): Increase vertical height on frame 40 (Also should help with recovery)
  
• Dash Speed: Increase 1.312 < 1.430

Some of these might be a bit overkill, but you get what I mean.

• Usmash: Adjust hitboxes in front of Dr. Mario's head on frames 9-12. (Removes the blind spot in front of Doc's head so the move can connect better) PATCHED!
• Fair: Replaces sour spot hit-boxes with new sweet spot hit-boxes.
• Dair: Landing Lag Decreased 21 < 13
• Dair: Gains a meteor effect similar to Kirby's on frames 27 (5th hit)
  
• Megavitamins: Base Dmg 5.6 < 7.1 (Vitamins don't reduce in damage if hit on frames 21-69)
• Super Sheet (Ground): Keeps momentum from previous walk or dash movement on frames 1-6, then slows down on frames 7-12
• Super Sheet (Air): Gains an added increase of momentum of 1.430 on frame 7 (This should help with Doc's approach options & recovery) Example.
• Super Jump Punch: Keeps momentum from jump until frame 28. (Similar to Roy's up special)
• Dr. Tornado: Base Dmg 8.5 < 10 (Pre-1.04 patch)
• Weight: Increase 98 < 104

I'm normally not one for tiers but if Doc were to receive all these changes, he would easily break top 15.
Hell maybe even top 10.

 

[WeirdJoe27]

• Dair: Gains a meteor effect similar to Kirby's on frames 27 (5th hit)
  
• Megavitamins: Base Dmg 5.6 < 7.1 (Vitamins don't reduce in damage if hit on frames 21-69)
• Super Sheet (Ground): Keeps momentum from previous walk or dash movement on frames 1-6, then slows down on frames 7-12
• Super Sheet (Air) Gains an added increase of momentum of 1.430 on frame 7 (This should help with Doc's approach options & recovery) Example.
• Weight: Increase 98 < 104

I'm normally not one for tiers but if Doc were to receive all these changes, he would easily break top 15.
Hell maybe even top 10.

Great stuff once again. One of my favorite changes here is the weight. They absolutely need to increase his weight. Why would he weigh the same as Mario but be slower and have no jump or recovery? Makes no sense whatsoever. If they were to increase his weight, I'd be very pleased. Sakurai.... please.

 

[Doc Mario]

The best way we could buff Dr.Mario is by making him faster.
I mean, not as fast as Mario obviously, but at least, make his running speed decent. Doc is slower than Dedede for God's Sake =(
Aside from that, the others possibles buffs include:
- Megavitamins dmg increase: 6,5% would be the best to me
- Make Fair more viable by reducing the end lag of it, seriously this thing is just punishable af, it's rewarding to hit with it, but you'll most likely hit with the sourspot anyway, speaking of which, make the sourspot useful or make the sweetspot bigger or something.
- BThrow has btr kill power: Kind of obvious, free kills are always nice for a defensive character, even through Doc doesn't exactly struggle to kill.
- Cape Stall, because you know, recovery
- Tornado vertical reach increased? I mean, Doc Tornado is kind of like, the opposite of Luigi's Tornado in terms of mobility, it doesn't go far in terms of horizontal reach, and i'm fine with that, but that'd be nice to at least have more vertical reach than Luigi's Tornado, or at the very least the same.

That's about it, and sorry if you didn't understand some of my sentences.

This right here is the truth, I like how you even mentioned how he's slower than even King Dedede, that ****'s not normal. If I didn't see your username right there I'd almost believe that I wrote it. All he needs is a speed boost though real talk, it says he's a balanced character but has some of the WORST speed in the game. Seriously it's ridiculous, if they're going to multiply Mario's attacks by 1.12 for Doc why not make him 12% slower or even 15% slower than him instead nearly 20% slower. That crap is not balanced, it's broken

EDIT:
Alright, call me crazy but I say we should go on the miiverse thing if you have a wii u,and go to support Dr.Mario from the smash bros wii u page and start trying to request this speed boost or other buffs for him. Hell I'll take a 1.42 for his running speed now, he should most definitely get a speed boost as his main problem most likely is being not all that strong but very VERY slow, I mean come on, Link's faster and stronger than Doc, same with Roy and Ike, it's not going to hurt to increase his running speed to a 1.42 (at least) even a small air speed boost like 1.00 or something wouldn't hurt. It'll help his recovery that people seem to be struggling with. Anyway, yeah, I'm going to try and get these buffs for my boy Doc on miiverse, I'm trying to gather more people to support this plain ya feel me guys?

 

[MrGameguycolor]

1.10 Changes for Doc:

Dr. MarioF 00:00

• Up Smash
  • Growth increased 108 → 117
  • Duration increased 4 → 5 frames (now matches head swing)

Basically, it removes the blind spot in front of his head near the end of the move.
Not much, but it's better than nothing & it's unique to Doc since Mario didn't receive this change.
Also it was one of the changes I wanted to see from him, so might as well cross it off the list.

 

[Doc Mario]

1.10 Changes for Doc:

Dr. MarioF 00:00

• Up Smash
  • Growth increased 108 → 117
  • Duration increased 4 → 5 frames (now matches head swing)

Basically, it removes the blind spot in front of his head near the end of the move.
Not much, but it's better than nothing & it's unique to Doc since Mario didn't receive this change.
Also it was one of the changes I wanted to see from him, so might as well cross it off the list.

Damn, still nothing for his running speed at all, I like how his up smash kills better now though, it's a nice touch

 

[LRodC]

I don't think speed is the problem with Doc, and it's purposefully part of his attributes. I think the real problem with Doc is that he's not as powerful as he should be considering the speed and jump compensation. It's very similar to how Mewtwo is criticized for not being powerful enough to offset his light weight and tall structure.

So the answer isn't really to buff his attributes, the answer is to buff his attacks enough where the attributes make sense as a trade off. If Doc had a kill throw or even more powerful aerials/smash attacks/combos, people would likely be singing a different tune about him.

 

[WeirdJoe27]

Damn, still nothing for his running speed at all, I like how his up smash kills better now though, it's a nice touch

It's nice to see Doc getting slight changes with every patch. At this point, I'm not sure Sakurai is ever going to change his overall speed. Maybe he can speed up his attacks or something

I don't think speed is the problem with Doc, and it's purposefully part of his attributes. I think the real problem with Doc is that he's not as powerful as he should be considering the speed and jump compensation. It's very similar to how Mewtwo is criticized for not being powerful enough to offset his light weight and tall structure.

So the answer isn't really to buff his attributes, the answer is to buff his attacks enough where the attributes make sense as a trade off. If Doc had a kill throw or even more powerful aerials/smash attacks/combos, people would likely be singing a different tune about him.

Couldn't agree more. While I'd probably take slightly more speed at this point, I'd certainly trade that in for more raw power. Doc has a lot of power, sure, but it certainly does not match his speed. I'd also still like to see his weight increased to match his speed and jump height. With a bit more weight (closer to Yoshi), he'd be a bit harder to KO. Right now, his lighter weight plus slow speed equals more kill opportunities for his opponents. Not cool, Sakurai.

 

[LRodC]

It's nice to see Doc getting slight changes with every patch. At this point, I'm not sure Sakurai is ever going to change his overall speed. Maybe he can speed up his attacks or something


Couldn't agree more. While I'd probably take slightly more speed at this point, I'd certainly trade that in for more raw power. Doc has a lot of power, sure, but it certainly does not match his speed. I'd also still like to see his weight increased to match his speed and jump height. With a bit more weight (closer to Yoshi), he'd be a bit harder to KO. Right now, his lighter weight plus slow speed equals more kill opportunities for his opponents. Not cool, Sakurai.

I agree with the weight (more would definitely help), but I don't see it happening. The balance team never changed any attributes of characters since release. I always tell people this about Mewtwo when they complain about his weight being too light. Maybe I'm wrong and one day they will change a character's weight, but I wouldn't be too optimistic about that kind of buff due to patch history. That's why I say focus on buffing the character's kit enough so that the positives of what the character can do are balanced properly properly with the negative attributes, kind of like Little Mac (terrible recovery and air game but amazing speed and ground game) or Ganondorf (terrible mobility but immense power).

 

[WeirdJoe27]

I agree with the weight (more would definitely help), but I don't see it happening. The balance team never changed any attributes of characters since release. I always tell people this about Mewtwo when they complain about his weight being too light. Maybe I'm wrong and one day they will change a character's weight, but I wouldn't be too optimistic about that kind of buff due to patch history. That's why I say focus on buffing the character's kit enough so that the positives of what the character can do are balanced properly properly with the negative attributes, kind of like Little Mac (terrible recovery and air game but amazing speed and ground game) or Ganondorf (terrible mobility but immense power).

Bingo! I think you hit the nail on the head. Doc is unbalanced and needs to be fixed. His speed, lack of jump height and overall slow movement does not make up for his slightly above average power. He's slower than DeDeDe and hits about as hard as Luigi and weighs as much as Mario but can't throw out as many attacks as quickly. Insanity! If he was a true killing machine, all would be forgiven on the speed and recovery.

All that said, I still really like Doc the way he is and it's so rewarding defeating brain-dead, high tier characters.

 

[Doc Mario]

Bingo! I think you hit the nail on the head. Doc is unbalanced and needs to be fixed. His speed, lack of jump height and overall slow movement does not make up for his slightly above average power. He's slower than DeDeDe and hits about as hard as Luigi and weighs as much as Mario but can't throw out as many attacks as quickly. Insanity! If he was a true killing machine, all would be forgiven on the speed and recovery.

All that said, I still really like Doc the way he is and it's so rewarding defeating brain-dead, high tier characters.

That's what I'm saying though, like how the hell does his "MD lower his jump" but he has the same weight as Mario? They should have came up with something better than that, I would have took "his lack of exercise" instead of the lame excuse for Doc's speed in this game. I don't know if they should boost all of his jumps but I know they should boost the Super Jump Punch height. I don't believe Dr.Mario needs AIR SPEED, that's just me but I KNOW he needs more running speed, he can't be balanced having the 6th or 5th worse running speed in the game and it's like you said his slightly above average power doesn't make up for that FAR below average speed. (well running speed anyway) I'm telling you Doc's main problem is that running speed, he can't get nowhere in time.
Also, look at Luigi, he runs much faster than Doc and he's stronger, you can't tell me it would do harm to increase this guys running speed a little.

 

[WeirdJoe27]

Changing the topic really quick, I'm curious how other people feel about this.....
Let's just say that the next patch becomes the "Dr. Mario Patch" and Sakurai gives him all the buffs we've discussed here. Obviously, if that were done, Doc would jump in the tier list and be extremely viable (if not possibly OP). In that scenario, all us longtime Doc mains would suddenly get a fantastic character with almost no downside, but on the flipside, tons of casuals and wannabes would flock to Doc. Personally, I like playing a character that most people consider 'bad' or 'low tier' and figuring out ways to win against all challengers. Also, it's fun to be a character that not a lot of people use (I refuse to use the popular characters in any game). If Doc were buffed to the moon, suddenly a ton of people would be using him just because of how good he was, not because they liked the character.

So would you prefer Doc to remain where he is, flaws and all, so he's a unique character that takes skill to use or would you be okay with him getting a ton of buffs that makes him easier to play as and, thus, more commonly used?

While the buffs sound great, I'd prefer a mix of both but leaning towards keeping him skill/read oriented and considered "low tier". I think Sakurai could give him a few more minor buffs that would do this but also greatly appease all the loyal Doc mains.

 

[Doc Mario]

Changing the topic really quick, I'm curious how other people feel about this.....
Let's just say that the next patch becomes the "Dr. Mario Patch" and Sakurai gives him all the buffs we've discussed here. Obviously, if that were done, Doc would jump in the tier list and be extremely viable (if not possibly OP). In that scenario, all us longtime Doc mains would suddenly get a fantastic character with almost no downside, but on the flipside, tons of casuals and wannabes would flock to Doc. Personally, I like playing a character that most people consider 'bad' or 'low tier' and figuring out ways to win against all challengers. Also, it's fun to be a character that not a lot of people use (I refuse to use the popular characters in any game). If Doc were buffed to the moon, suddenly a ton of people would be using him just because of how good he was, not because they liked the character.

So would you prefer Doc to remain where he is, flaws and all, so he's a unique character that takes skill to use or would you be okay with him getting a ton of buffs that makes him easier to play as and, thus, more commonly used?

While the buffs sound great, I'd prefer a mix of both but leaning towards keeping him skill/read oriented and considered "low tier". I think Sakurai could give him a few more minor buffs that would do this but also greatly appease all the loyal Doc mains.

That whole question was weird as hell but I'd be happy with just a running speed buff for Doc, If others began to use Dr.Mario after they buffed his speed or did all the buffs he could use I'd be cool with it because Dr.Mario is extremely underrated and is character that could use alot more attention. I don't go by tiers as I find them to be absolute trash especially for this smash bros.

EDIT:

Anyone else find it annoying how Dr.Mario's tornado is weaker than both Mario's and Luigi's? Not only is it weaker than the two but also slower, it's another ridiculous thing they did with Doc.